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GREELEY CIVIC CENTER
GREELEV. COLORADO 80631
PHONE (303' 353-6123 March 14 , 1978
June Steinmark .. o
Weld County Commissioner " o
. 915 Tenth Street i
Greeley, CO 80631 , • 4 w
o
Dear Ms . Steinmark: _( ' `
c:.,1-7,,.7—
On behalf of the Greeley Planning Commission, I would like to
thank you for your participation in our recent session dealing
with the Central Business District . We appreciate your willing-
ness to not only make time in your busy schedule to attend the
session , hut to share your thoughts and feelings with us . The
Commission believes that these meetings with Greeley citizens
and business and professional organizations are an important
part of our downtown study. The opinions and information shared
with us during these discussions will he utilized later as we
formulate plans for the future . We hope you will continue to
have an interest in the work of the Commission and in our study
of the Central Business District .
Attached are minutes from the meeting you attended , and all other
meetings prior . We will continue to send you minutes (as they
are completed) of all the public sessions we hold in the next few weeks so that you may keep up- to-date with the information
and comments we receive from other groups and individuals .
Please feel free to contact members of the Planning Commission or
the City planning staff if you have any further questions or
concerns relating to the downtown .
Sincerely ,
/
7 ./C-1-: k--L: �r"7r�1ohn Dietz , Chairman I
Planning Commission
JD: ka
"A COMMUNITY OF PROGRESS" 780872 1
iI
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TESTIMONY
Presented to
GREELEY P1,ANNITIc; COMMISSION
by the
GREELEY AREA CIIAIIBER or COMMERCE
On behalf of the Greeley Area Chamber of Cominerce , we wish
to thank the Greeley Planning Commission and staff for this
opportunity to discuss the future of the Greeley Central Business
District.
It is imperative , as we begin this discussion , that we lay
to rest rumors of downtown deterioration. The Central Business
District is not dying : Possibly the concern could rather be
expressed by raising the question , "Is the Central business District
keeping pace with our communities changing needs and demands?"
We do Lot profess to have the answer to this question , but recommend
this be one of the vital areas explored as this study continues .
Another unfortunate misconception is perceiving the Central
Business District only as a retail shopping center . Whereas the
District provides vital retail trade activity, this is not
it' s sole function. It also provides a complete range of activities
including financial , professional , and governmental services plus
amusement facilities , residential and visitor housing , as well
as retail. All these activities interrelate to satisfy user
needs.
It is our belief that the visual impressions our community
makes upon new arrivals and •vi.sitors and the pleasure that we
derive from living here are a direct result of the imagination ,
consideration and the care that we each put into the development ,
improvement , and maintenance of our own homes , businesses , and
industries.
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For our community as a whole , it is essential that the
strength and vitality of the Central Business District be
maintained and improved. The Central Business District represents
a substantial portion of the tax base in comparison with the
area it occupies . Additionally , the community has a considerable
investment in streets , utilities And other services in the area .
Consequently , it is in our best interest , that we lay plans now
for keeping pace with the changing requirements being placed on
this area.
We feel that there are certain keys to the successful
organization of a Central Business District improvement . The
first, is total community support. It is imperative that this
ambitious program have among it' s supporters , representatives
from all interested aspects of the community. Total community
support is essential and therefore total community input is
probably the first key to a successful program.
Another key , in this endeavor is committed leadership which
will probably receive criticism. It must be recognized from the
onset, that change causes uncertainty , and that uncertainty •
breeds fear. Such fear must be countered with factual information
to avoid malicious rumor and misunderstanding.
The final key , is to have the entire community aware of the
considerable tine and energy required for this undertaking .
There arc no macic answers , no predetermined objectives , nor
assurances of success . - And ultimately the economic feasibility
/-� of any activity must be realized.
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The Greeley Area Chamber of Commerce again wishes to
express our appreciation for the commitment the City Council ,
Planning Commission , and staff have made to this undertaking .
We wish to go or record as offering our assistance , in any manner
you deem necesscry , in achieving a Central Business District
capable of satisfying the present and future needs of our
community.
Respectfully suLmitted ,. January 24 , 1978
Larry flohlender, President
Greeley Area Chzmber of Commerce
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DOWNTOWN MIT TING- - RANKERS
January ID , 1978
Bankers Present : Roh Gilbert , Norman Dean , Larry Menefee , Royce
Clark , Larry Scott , Sandi Miller, Larry
Nerrschwanger, Vicki Johnston
Commissioners Present : John Dietz , Burton Roeth , Larry rlodlin ,
Pick Keirnes , Dean Cummins , Clark Ewald ,
Clifford Clift
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Larry Scott commented on the possibility of the downtown going
totally service/professional , noting that some people arc indicat-
ing that this has been their most outstanding retail year . He
also raised the question of whether narking is really a problem.
Sandi Miller asked if it would he possible to get the results of
the downtown survey . Mr.. Sasaki replied that he wasn ' t sure
whether there is any reliability to the study ; however , when
comparing this with the survey in May more information may he
drawn from it .
Commissioner Ewald noted that the banks have all made major
investments in the area . Property tax assessments and parking are
believed to he a problem and they want to find out if . they arc .
Since the banks have made the investments , they want to get their
impressions . Larry Scott commented that banks could he anywhere
in town and get business while it ' s not the same with merchants .
Mr. Sasaki asked why the banks chose to locate in the downtown area .
Larry Scott replied that they had a great investment where they
were . They also hired someone to select the best location for
their bank and found out that they were already in the right place .
John Given asked what the basis was for this decision . Larry
• Scott replied that a bank is not a household tyne of operation
which would get more business by being located in one particular
section of the City. This was where their original investment
was and they like it . They owe the downtown a great deal for their
success . He doesn ' t believe it ' s appropriate to say that the
downtown makes the bank because it is a County-wide operation .
'The banks have no parking problems at the present time .
Dick Keirnes asked how the bankers see their roles when Greeley
reaches 100 , 00(1 . Larry Scott replied that it would' he no
different . The people may change but the hank does not .
Norm Dean commented that their situation was different hecause they
didn ' t previously own property downtown. They considered
following the customer hut since the customer is County-wide the
downtown seemed to he the best place . The downtown would create
traffic whether it is a retail center • or not , because of the
utilities and City and County offices . He doesn ' t believe the
bank could find a better place to be .
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Page 2 DOWN'T'OWN MINTING- - BANKERS January 10 , 1978
Vicki .Johnston commented that Mountain Bell creates a serious
parking problem. Larry Scott noted that they wouldn ' t want to
do without the people who go to Mountain Bell . Also the City
provides a lot of customers . Dean Cummins asked if this was
true of other hanks. also. Royce Clark replied that the walk in
business is very insignificant , but the location is important
by being close to the City and County offices . The fact that
Colorado doesn ' t have branch banking so they must stay in one
specific place does have an affect .
Dean Cummins noted that the banks in the mall obviously had a
different goal . Larry Menefee replied that their customers
are spread over a wide area , but the destiny of the downtown
will have an affect on the banks in the mall as well as those
downtown . Royce Clark commented that he would like to think
that a viable downtown is good for everyone.
Sandi Miller note.' that she Is concerned with the quality of the
businesses downtown as well as the parking . Larry Menefee pointed
out that the property values have been dropping in the downtown,
and when they drop far enough people will begin to come in . •
Larry Scott commented that the downtown won ' t be capable of
renewing until some businesses don' t make it .
Dick Keirnes asked if hankers could visualize themselves with
20 mill funding and what their positions would be . Larry Scott
replied that with good planning , the answer would be yes , because
they have a big investment in it . John Dietz asked- if Pearl
Street was the kind of thing the people had in mind . Larry Scott
replied that he likes Pearl Street but isn' t sure that it
serves our purpose . Sam Sasaki noted that they don ' t have
sufficient data to look at what is happening downtown . Larry
Scott replied that something will happen if nothing is done to
help the retail .
Vicki Johnston noted that there wasn ' t room on the survey for
people to indicate why they were shopping downtown . Many people
were because they work there . Larry Scott commented that there
are a large number of out of town groups .
Sam Sasaki asked what part the downtown plays here. Norm Mean
pointed out that when you consider the cost of the land ,
the off-street parking available , and the. need to tear down and
rebuild , very little profit would he made . ,John Given questioned
whether they would consider total redevelopment or a more modest
form. He commented that it should he looked at from a market
standpoint as far as how much more would he needed for office and
retail . Larry Scott pointed out that private capital finds its
own time for investment . Dick Keirnes noted that this couldn ' t
be helped along by the government , this is a private urban
renewal project .
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Page 3 DOWNTOWN MNIYI' ING - - BANKERS !i7,
January I11 , I ti
Royce Clark asked if the survey had any questions on the
value of shopping in the downtown . Larry Scott pointed out that
most people come because they like a particular store that can ' t
be found anywhere also . Clark Ewald questioned whether people
shop downtown because they bank here or hank here because they
shop here . Larry Scott noted that there is more public and
private parking than there was 10 years ago . Sam Sasaki commented
that they wouldn ' t get the answers they needed by asking people to
compare the downtown with the mall .
Dean Cummins asked what the basic problems in the downtown were
which necessitate the study. Norm Dean commented that whether there
is a parking problem or not , people believe there is . Larry
Scott noted that if the problem isn ' t recognized , the tax base
supporting the meeting would• he gone . Deterioration will happen
unless stens are • taken to support the existing base . Any
solution may not he perfect , -hut it ' s better than what we have .
Dick Keirnes pointed out chat it would be very helpful if they
could put their finger on what is in the consumer ' s mind . Royce
Clark commented that it could he approached with the question of
what would he offered in a shopping center if they were to start
over again . They must consider comfort , traffic patterns , and
parking . The most logical approach would he to find what you
need to get people here and provide that . Grand Junction was a
success because they made it a pleasant place for people to he .
Dick Keirnes asked if they would fund it if it were done in
stages . Clark Ewald noted that even if there was a trend
toward service , retail would still come back . Larry Menefee
asked to what extent the City could find funds for parking and
maintenance . Sam Sasaki replied that there are a number of
programs where the City could apply for funds , hut he felt
timing was inappropriate at the present time. John Given noted
that once they have a plan , there are many alternatives .
Sandi Miller pointed out that they need to make the downtown an
attractive place to he . Larry Scott asked if it went retail ,
what suggestions would he made to make it more attractive .
Dick Keirnes replied that once they get further into the project ,
a committee will he formed . Vicki .Johnston commented that most
people shop out of town because they . can ' t find what they want
here . John Given noted that there is a need for lunch places ,
considering the number of employees in the downtown area who
travel out to West 10th Street for lunch . Larry Modlin pointed
out that with a growth of 30% , there are many different kinds
of shoppers . He was pleased that the people arc willing to do
something with the downtown .
Bob Gilbert noted that they shouldn ' t direct their efforts towards
retaining large retailers . Larry Scott noted that they could
make un for the large retailers leaving by hrinping in better ,
small stores . Larry Modlin pointed out that some of the large stores
like Fashion Bar and the Denver will not move and could he a
help in forming a mall .
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Page 4 DOWNTOWN MEETING--BANKERS January I D , 1978
Bob Gilbert asked ir the Downtown Improvement District is still
in existence . Sam Sasaki replied that the tax was paid off with
a three mill being assessed on the downtown. The district is
still there but the indebtedness is gone . John Dietz
asked who votes on the funding for the district . Sam Sasaki
replied that he believes the taxpayers do .
Contact with the bankers can he made through Royce Clark ,
President of the Association of Pull Service Banks .
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pl1''1:NIftvN MEETING CHAMBER OF (,11M`II,RIT
Januar, 21 , IP7S
3: 311 n . m .
Chamber Members Present : Larry Bohlander , - Doug .Sears , Larry Menefee ,
Bill Hunter,
Commissioners I'res"nt : Dean Cummins , John Diet : , Larry Modlin ,
Clark Ewald , Dick. Keirnes
John Diet :: introduced the reason for the meeting and presented
I,arry Rohlanldcr , President of the Chamhcr of Colmnelee . Mr .
Bohlander presented written testimony from the Chamber , conics
of which were distrihutedto the tommissioners and attached to the
minutes of this meeting, .
Mr . Menefee commented that he is pleased that the Commission has
taken the initiative to look into the problem, and the Chamber
would like to he available to help where they can . The No .
concern of the Chamber is. the Central Business District . Doug
Sears is heading an economic development program . After they
get through the probing phase , they helieve the Chamber can Play
a very active part in the study . The center of Greeley is now
Probably nearer 23rd Avenue , hut the greater investment is still
in the downtown . Vern Nelson will chair a retail committee which
is now partially organized by Royce Clark , Dr . Brian Nelson and
Ed Boos , to assist where possihie . However, more people should he
added from the property ownership group .
(lick Keirnes asked if they saw any additions necessary for the
agenda of meetings which staff did not consider. Mr. Bohlander
replied that he did not . He believes the agenda covers all the
necessary segments . Mr . Keirnes asked if the landowners are in an
organized group . Mr. Bohlander replied that the Chamber is
close to the landowners and could act as a link to them and
the community . Dean Cummins asked if the Chamber had any specific
problems that they can identify in the downtown area . Mr . Menefee
replied that there may he a narking problem. Mr . Bohlander pointed '
out that the Commission would he speaking with the Chamber
membership through other meetings .
Clark Ewald asked what people moan when they ,.ay downtown I5
hrohlem . Mr . Bohlander rend ied that thong• is ;a I, rehlcm becale:e
people have mentioned it . The outlying areas have expressed
concerns for the downtown staving strong in order to keep Creelcy
as a group of retailers . Mr. Menefee noted that there may not he
big problem now, but we must look at where we are headed .
Mr. Bohlander noted that each groan will perceive the problem
differently , so they should have a good understanding of all of.
the problems after getting input from all of. the groups .
Clark Ewald asked if he saw the Chamber taking n political
nosition to protect the downtown from shopping centers outside
the downtown area . Mr . Bohlander replied than they first rust
consider the available space all over the City . He doesn ' t .believe
I':Igc DOWNI7.S'N MEETING - - CHAMBER HE Ctlr I;I:I•
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that the Clianher can noI IIienI Iv snnnort Olle :Irt•a as opposed Io
another , since they have membership throughout and outside or Ilu
City . They inns ) he careful about taking a stand which world he
financ i :11 It benefit ial to one particular :irtca . Mr . Muncie'. ;I'. ked
who is the judge of Ihis . p1 r . I;nhl :1ndt' r repl ie l that It would he
Ilse economic s:y : Iem .
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Mr . keirni••. asked If the Cli:unhcr. Could help idend I Iv whether
people Clout: the t!ttanlown is behind the lone II . Menefee
replied that they. tolild urg:lni :.e a survey of the membership ,
but it come down to who is paying the hills . Mr . keirues noted
that they need someone to make a definite point which they can
work around . NIr'. Iwald pointed out that there must he a balance
of the total commercial area . Possibly the Chamber would under-
stand the land development economics better . He asked where the
(,harmer would he going now if the Planning Commission hadn ' t
started the _study . Mr. Menefee replied that they would he doing
their own study .
Mr. I(ohl :1ndcr nointed out that the economic development problem ,
:Is they discussed it , was not given a specific w.IV to p,o ; only
that it is a nroblem which should he addressed . They are looking
to the technical side of the problem now. The Chamber may have
suggested :I joint study with the Planning Commission ir the
Commission hadn ' t started it . They haven ' t gotten any ideas from
their memher's on what they should do , lust that the nrohlem should
he addressed . Mr . Menefee noted that land values are( lower than
they were a few vears ago in the downtown . Mr . keirues commented
that :Inv action must he funded by taxes or right of eminent domain .
The groups must have a direct tie- in with the plan of action .
The Commission has no Preconceived plan of action and doesn ' t
intend to initiate ono .
Mr. Menefee noted that their role would become more evident after
the evidence has been collected . He believes this must he a joint
involvement . Mr . Morrell questioned whether the Chamber would
have started the study if- the City didn ' t , Mr . Menefee replied
that thew would . NIr. RohIander nointed out that the key is to use
community resources . Efforts would have to he coordinated here .
nnicNToIVN r1I Ii r I Nr - - HOWN'r(1IVN MFRCl lAN'I'S
egt January Fl , 1975
7 : 3(1 n . n.
Downtown Merchants Present : Sandi Miller, Robert Renard , Jim
McClasson , Jim Browne , Don French ,
Fred May , Herman Akers , Floyd Otis ,
Mike Meyer , Brian Florio , Greg Nroman ,
Ray Clem, George Acker, Clifford
Baker, Ted Stander , Terry Berg ,
Vicki Johnston , Bill Yeager , Tons
Starr , Bill Hunter
Commissioners Present : Dean Cummins , John Diet: , Dick Keirues ,
Clark hwald
John Diet: introduced the reason for the meeting and asked staff
for comments . John Civen noted that the first phase of the study
is to he completed' around Sentemher of this year. The primary
• function of these meetings is to gather information , ideas and
comments from the neople . This in Format ion will act as a guideline
for what is done . lie raised the ouestion of how the downtown
functions in a growing community and what a successful downtown is .
Staff Will prepare a report for City Council which should also
look into the design and financing of the project . He suggested
the possibility of scheduling other meetings after some conclusions
have been reached to let people know what is coming of this .
Fred May commented that most of them agree that they must start
with the parking facilities . Before it is Possible to consider
more businesses coming into the downtown , there must he adenuate
parking fbr them. They have worked on the idea of the merchants .
City , and County working together to create narking . His business
has .plenty of parking hut they are just a small Portion of the
total picture . The County uses a lot of the on -street parking and
this takes away from the consumers . Many nenl11e won ' t stop and
go into a business unless they can nark. very close..
Bill Yeager commented ! hat he has keen in hima i ne , ; in downtown
Greeley for the na,+ t lea years . Parkin! ;erne in he the main
comol :Iint : however , there is : pima snare in downtown CreeIty if
it were mahaged nronerlv .- Employees ;Ire uarkin', in what should he
customer narking snIut's and moving their cars every two hours •
He pointed out that no one will give them parking spaces , they will
have to Ntly it . The number of businesses represented here are
an indication. if the interest . His business does not rely on
one particular kind of business in the downtown , but a new look
is needed . Home fight and Power and the Coronado huildinmare
examples of this and if more businesses looked better , there
wouldn ' t he a problem. •
Floyd (Otis stressed that the downtown nrohlem is nit a husiness
nrohlenl, as such , it is n nr',hl ;•r! of file City also . The City has;
a gigs inve ; Innenl in their i'niI 1ini' s here . . Ile has talked to Boulder
City I' l' liti :ils about hew Ihe\ financed their downtown and they
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Page 2 0UIVN IihVN MIT TIN(;NCI lu'IvNTrr"°N rakRC IAN1'tt
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renlied that the landlords ;Intl tenants had to pay for it also in
order to make the necessary imnrovcments . The downtown develop
meat needs businessmen a I so . He he I i eves we have made ;a beginning
with the new buildings already 'milt . The streets could be
narrowed to facilitate new building. fronts . Landscaping , trees coil
old fashioned street cars , with narking nrovided in help the older
and hnndicanncd pet downtown easier , could make a great difference .
Following this , new streets , curbs , gutters , and sidewalks would
have to he put in so it might then he beneficial to put heating
in the streets to get rid of the snow , since the snow removal
by the City is now a great expense . He would like to sec the
merchants association become strong enough to reouire cooperation
for such projects as opening, stores at night . This may not be
easy hut it would help business .
Mike Meyer noted that he was instrumental in taking out the motors .
Also , they have discussed 'using narking in the park . The inside of •
the park parallel to the, present parking spaces could he used
without taking out too many trees or damaging the park too much .
Dick Keirnes pointed out that in other cities the major funding came
from the downtown . He asked what the merchants position would he
if thev . had an additional lS to 20 mills and how this would affect
their businesses . What would the merchants' reaction he to special
permit parking by government agencies? How do merchants view their
businesses with Greeley having a nonulation of 100 , 000?
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Floyd Otis commented that the downtown improvement is not just a
business improvement , there' is much City activity here too . 'lany
public functions could be drawn to the downtown . He thinks
businesses should nay their share hut everyone else must too . if
it will pay for them to do it , they will ; but if it ' s tbo high ,
they can ' t .
Bill Yeager commented that this would still he cheaper than renting
in the malls . lie questioned the number of people employed in the
County Complex and the number of narking spaces they provide . He
believes that the County should nay their fair share also .
Dick Keirnes noted that a showcase downtown does nna have a Iar.c
for nayinp, gates . 'there is not a wide enough In .e base to afford
what people would like to sec hanpcn .
Clarkliwald asked how many People actually feel that narking has a
negative impact . Fred May • replied that he gets at least five
calls a day about narking problems around Human Resources . Mike
Meyer commented that he hadn ' t realized there was a nroblem with
employees parking on Eighth Street . Most employees know that they
shouldn ' t park there and they don ' t . He believes emnlovees parking
off-street should he enforced . (lick Keirnes asked for their
reactions to providing off- street narking for all their employees
or paying the City for a permit to park in other provided spaces .
Ray Clem Pointed out that they must not only redistribute hut
also create more spaces . The volume must he expanded . Floyd
Otis noted that if everyone else nays for their parking , he wouldn ' t
Page 3 D) VNTt..,N NUTTING- Dols TOWN MI!12C11ANI'`; '/ IS/ 7,s
mind but he wouldn ' t want to be the only one paving . Dick keir'n '
commented that this would have a different ;effect on each employer ,
depending on the number of employees . h;tv Clem pointed out that
the lots could pay for themselves with meters . John Dietz. asked
whether the lots he referred to were owned by the (: itv or rented .
Ray Clem replied that the City owned them.
Dick Keirnes asked who has the right to free narking downtown and
if it is the consumer , is this a necessary part of sustaining a
successful downtown . Bill Yeager replied that it is . Ray Clem
agreed . flick Keirnes asked who else has the right to free narking .
Bill Yeager replied that if the purpose of the downtown is shopping ,
then only the consumer has the right . (lick Keirnes asked for their
reaction to special permit parking . Rill Yeager replied that he
would he in favor of this if it made more room for the downtown
employees . Jim Bryant noted that the consumer has the ultimate
right to free parking. ft is the employees responsihi1ity to
find narking that is not detrimental to businesses . There should
he as much open narking for the consumer .as possible . Dick Keirnes
asked how the empty spaces would look to the consumer . Jim Bryant
replied that the consumer wants to see onen spaces . Ray Clem
noted that many people would shop for more than two hours but
don ' t because they have to worry about tickets .
Dick Keirnes asked what the merchant ' s roles would he when Greeley
reaches 181) , 000 . Floyd Otis replied that the core of the City
is moving away from the downtown , hut it will always play an impor-
tant part . The City park alone is an important part . Business
will increase , hut not as much as the population .
Bill Yeager commented that he knows pconlc enjoy the park , hut
using it for narking must he considered. Dick Keirnes asked what
would happen if the recreational center complex were guilt in
the park . Bill Yeager replied that it would just create more
parking problems . Mike Meyer commented that he thought this
should he built further northwest . Bob Renard questioned
the building of narking spaces under narks . Mike Meyer asked
if they were still nutting hoots on people who over nark . Mr .
Morrell replied that they are . Floyd (leis commented that they
could eliminate some of the automobiles downtown by giving people
some other way to pet there .
Clark liwald asked if they see their businesses growing and iI' they
intend to reinvest or would consider a change of location later on .
We want to identity what is happening downtown and what affect
it will have . Tom Starr noted that downtown business is good ,
the problem is that neonle keep telling them that it will get worse .
I) ick Keirnes asked if the value of the downtown uroperIv is less
now . Noting that this may not he a I rend , hill iC it is what can he
done about it . Tom Harr noted that part of their nrohlem is look -
ing at the trends for m;rnv different cities . lie doesn ' t think
Greeley has a lot of these problems . There are a lot of good
businesses and he had no concerns for the downtown deteriorating .
Ray Clem noted the problem is greater for new businesses than
established ones . New businesses need the traffic to improve ,
• Page I DOWNTOWN Mi.11'I'I NC - l) tC.N'I'1)IYN MIf (:liANTS '/ 1 / ;'s
eTh hurt the older ones have built ;i reputation . RiII Yeager noted
that businesses are good and he feels it is increasing , but nothing
starts overnight and it will tike Iirre . Rosiness may he at a
standstill and need rejuvenating . Property must he worth something
or taxes wouldn ' t he as high as they are . He believes the downtown
is a good investment and he would reinvest . There isn ' t that much
wrong that a little hit of work wouldn ' t correct . This is a matter
of merchandizIng and some consumers are already downtown .
Vicki .Johnston noted that many downtown employees are also customers .
Bill Yeager asked if people find what they are looking for when they
arc shopping downtown . There is a time Problem for employees
finding what they want ln a limited time . Don French commented that
Weiss spent a lot of money relocating , hut their business was
rewarded by putting the extra effort into the downtown . Bob Renard
noted that 50%. of the refunds in his store were from other stores
out of town . They must make up for this by growing, hut there is
nowhere to grow, but un and there is no parking to accommodate
this growth . Clark .hwald noted that looking at the number of
customers in other towns who refund in Greeley , the customer
appears to have time to shop in Denver hut not Greeley . Ted
Stander noted that the biggest competitors for parkins; are the
employees .
Tom Starr noted that he would like to sec a major retail business
here because he believes this would keen the downtown solid for
another 20 years . He has always been able to find parking within
a half block of his store . Dick heirnes commented that some people
just have this in their mind . Do you think it is better to re-
educate the consumer or just go along with their opinions ? Tom
Starr stated that he liked the survey because they must find out
what the consumer wants and go along with this . Rill hunter
questioned whether there was more or less income over the Christmas
season from the outlying areas . Mike Meyer. noted the customers
outside of the City have always been good for business in Greeley ,
although there is a drop in the business from Fort Collins . Floyd
Otis commented that his store brings some business to the City
since 239, of his charge customers are from out of town . kill Hunter
asked if this has remained constant . Nloyd ntis replied that he
wasn ' t sure , but could check . It seenc; that every liMC 'coweone
beautifies their building , the taxes go up . There shoiild he
some consideration for the improvements mule to the downtown .
Tom Starr noted that he would like to see funds made available
to lend to businessmen to use in the beautification of their
buildings . Rill Yeager commented that there was funding three
or four years ago from Urban Renewal . Sri in Sasaki pointed out that
there is tax increment financing available . Using this the increase
in taxes from improvements would go into a fund to he used for
downtown improvements . Ray Clem noted that if you want to improve
a building , then you must aIso want to increase your sales and profit .
In ir you don ' t think the improvements will increase Your business ,
you shouldn ' t he making the improvements . Wed Stander commented
that if you improve space which you are renting , You will see no
direct gain . Tom Starr replied that von would if some assistance
l'age 5 UiFVN'I i IIVN MI',I'I' I Ntl- UHIVN'i I1IVN MI!4C11,1N'I'''.
was made available . Dick Keirnes noted that in must downtown
development there has been some help from the government , hut he
doesn ' t think the downtown should he allowed to dec:iv completely
before anything is clone .
Ray Clem commented that the merchants must kick in the money to
improve their parking . The catalyst of improvement should he
private enterprise and not the government . kill Yeager asked what
a parking space is worth now. Pete Morrell replied that high-
rise parking would cost over $ 3 , 000 . Bill Yeager noted that
he doesn ' t believe this could be clone totally through private
enterprise . Sam Sasaki pointed out that the idea behind tax incre-
ment financing is that the person does it for himself as well as
creating an improvement in the general area . Rill Hunter asked
if monies from this could go for loans on parking lots . Bill
Yeager noted that it would create an awful burden on the average
small business to remodel someone else ' s building . Can pressure
he put on the - large property "Owners to make improvements ? Putting
up new fronts would • really help . Sam Sasaki replied that the
government can ' t force this unless there arc problems with health
or safety . He pointed out that the Downtown Improvement District
is still in existence and most of the data staff is using as a
base is corning from 'this first study . He was unable to compare
the downtown now to its condition at the time of that study .
Dick Keirnes asked how many merchants downtown own and how many
rent . Terry Bird noted that the last study was defeated because
of the problems with renting . John Dietz pointed out that
about 70 rented and 30 owned their businesses . Bill Yeager
noted that it is closer to an 40 : 20 ratio . John Dietz asked •
how they could get the owners involved . Nob Renard noted
that the problem would be with out-of-town landlords . Clark Ewald
asked what the attitude of the retailers downtown is and what type
of retail - - specialty vs . large department stores- - they would prefer .
Ray Clem pointed out that although established businesses like
Starr ' s don ' t need the traffic , newer businesses like his do .
Mike Meyer noted that there is less traffic but this is a
natural situation since shopping centers are growing in other
parts of town . It looks like there are more peonic in the mall
because it is a more concentrated area .
Dick Kcirnes questioned the need for more commercial zoning in the
downtown area . Tom Starr suggested discouraging commercial growth
in the outer areas . Dick Keirnes replied that if it is economically
sound to build outside of the downtown area , this should be the
right of the individual . Tom Tarr agreed that it is his right
to build where he warts . Ted Slander suggested cncourap, inp
development outside oh the downtown only when needed . Dick
Keirnes replied that he has never seen n dcvelopificHI which owners
didn ' t claim was needed .
Floyd Otis questioned whether the loss of chain businesses is
hurting the downtown . If too manv large businesses move , then
the small ones must go too because they need the traffic the larger
ones bring in. Fred Mav questioned whether anyone has asked the
chain businesses why they are moving out of t h c downtown .
•1 !rte,
I'age 6 DOWNTOWN MELTING- • IunVvTO'`N MERCHANTS '/ 1 :;/ ?rt
Bill Yeager noted that the chains which moved were Joslin ; and
Montgomery Wards . Sam Sasaki replied that one of the problems was
space . Floyd Otis noted that .loslins wanted a larger store and
couldn ' t find it downtown . Mike Meyer nointed out that going to
shopping centers would eliminate the smaller stores , because they
couldn ' t pay the rental costs for the. buildings . Terry Berg
commented that :some businesses can ' t grow in a mall situation because
of the type of business .
John Given suggested identifying the types of businesses that are
not being developed in the downtown. Who is the new look of the
downtown being directed toward? Floyd Otis noted that there
are no hardware stores downtown , although there used to be three .
John Given asked if there is a need for one , and questioned
whether the downtown should act as a regional shopping center or
would he successful performing more specialized functions . Terry
Berg pointed out that the 'core area is important to the outlying
farming community , especially in the Greeley area.
Tom Starr noted that he has customers who come over from Eaton
and yet people in the suburbs think it ' s too far to travel .
Floyd Otis pointed out that there should he a way for peonle
to get around downtown easier . John r)ictz reminded everyone that
there will he more meetings in the future . Tom Starr thanked
the Commission for the work they are doing on this nroiect . Sam
Sasaki said that he would try to maintain contact with all the
groups . Fred May has been the contact with the merchants up to
now , and if there arc no objections , he will continue to pass on
information through him.
•
•
DOWNTOWN MIiF'I' I NC - - VJiI,I) COUNTY , UTILITY COMPANIES ,
n ANI) POSTAI, `;IiRNIc1!
I ehruary 14 , 1978
3 : 30 p . m . -
Representatives Present : Walt Specmur , Victor Jacohucci , Norman
Carlson , Rudy Torres , Leonard Roe , June
• Steinmark , Dick Fennelly , Myron Mauldin ,
Harold MuFate , Dave Rhoades , Burl Iluitt ,
Ray Pouts
Commissioners Present : Clifford Clift , Dean Cummins , John Dietz ,
Clark Ewald , Dick Keirnes , Larry Modlin ,
Burton Roeth
John Dietz introduced the reason for the meeting and asked first
for comments from Weld County representatives . Leonard Roe com-
mented that the major problem is parking and he doesn ' t think it
will get better. They must find some solution to the parking
problems downtown as they are getting increasingly worse . .Dick
Keirnes asked where they think the citizens are on this . Leonard
Roe noted that he thinks County employees who are parking on
the street are parking there by hermit . Dick Keirnes asked whether
they think permit parking is subsidation . June Steinmark replied
that anyone can buy a permit . Dick Keirnes asked if she thought
n this was a matter of economics . June Steinmark replied that they
charge $S a month . Norman Carlson commented that this only creates
more revenue .
•
Dick Keirnes noted that some of the houses downtown could be
torn down. Mr. Carlson pointed out that they have bought parking
space but their people won ' t park there . They must have space
nearer to the building . Ms . Steinmark suggested that the merchants
and City government must provide free parking . They can ' t compete
with a mall while charging for parking . Maybe the cost of parking
must he borne by the businesses , hut there is a problem with the
working people . Ms . Steinmark commented that there is less volume .
Clark Ewald asked what the employment is at the County . Mr.
Jacohucci replied that it is presently 90 of what they expect it
to be .
.John Diet .. asked for more cmmmentr; on parking . Mr . Roe noted [ hat
there is nn economic factor in permit parking . The City has no
capital expenditure for those streets . Hick Keirnes painted oitt
that if parkin!, is :1 problem , the suggestion of the business people
was that there he no free parking for anyone hilt the customers .
Parking would have to he provided for every working person downtown .
If parking wasn ' t provided, a fee would -have to he paid . Mr.
Roc noted that the County could not •now provide this off-street
parking . Ms . Steinmark pointed out that they are leasing a lot
for their employees , hut they won ' t use it . Mr . Keirnes commented
that they won ' t use it unless it ' s next door . Ms . Steinmark replied
that they can ' t put parking spaces next to every building .
i
Page 2 DOWNTOWN MEETING ItiEl,n COUNTY , UTILITY 2/ I1 / 78
COMPANIES , AND POSTAI, .SERVICE
Walt Specnuur noted that it also depends on the location . Building
a lot doesn' t solve the problem. Human Resources employees all
park in a lot . The people who work downtown seem to be the best
customers to the downtown . People come downtown to shop as well
as work and they must have parking .
Mr . Carlson asked if the public was invited . Mr . Dietz replied
that it was . Mr. Carlson noted that people feel they should have
the spaces now occupied by County personnel . Store owners are
disturbed by the employees who park on the street , hut the County
is reluctant to participate unless it involves upright or under-
ground parking . Mr . Keirnes asked if the Commissioners had acknow-
ledged that there had been a waiver of parking requirements for
them . Mr . Roc replied that there had been some understanding
during the efforts of the downtown merchants to get the County
to keep their offices downtown. Mr. Carlson noted that the block
bounded by 8th and 9th Avenues and 9th and 10th Streets had been
considered for use as a parking lot, hut the building owners would
have to give up part of their buildings .
Mr. Dietz asked for comments from the utility representatives .
Clark Ewald pointed out that Home Light and Power has made a com-
mitment . They are in a very old and deteriorated building , but
decided that the company has a strong commitment to the downtown .
They have 25 - 30 employees who must have parking . Another aspect
of development is the problems confronted with downtown redevelop-
ment . They would like to show what Home Light and Power ' s problems
arc .
Mr . Fennelly pointed out that they have put in some underground
facilities for Creeley National , but there is great expense involved .
All of downtown has been in a good working state since the early
1950 ' s and the overhead systems were redesigned to last 40 years .
This operates on the radial system but isn ' t closed because they
have only one method of feeding into it . They require only a
short process for repair . The underground system is much more
difficult to locate and repair problems in, and repair could take
days . He thinks enclosed loop systems are necessary . Greeley
National wanted this underground and did have the line fed
radially . The system was started at the Denver Dry , across 8th
Avenue around east of Greeley National , and to the east of the City
building , putting ❑n underground system in for the Holiday Inn
also . The County has also requested the underground system , and
has paid for this as well as the tie north which may be put in and
enclosed with the loop ❑gain .
The cost for the underground system is $ 100 , 000 per block for first
the lines , transformers , and provisions for these . About $6(1 , 000
r per block is required for looping in a 6- 9 block arp;i ( $ 109 , 1111(1
total ) whether it is paid for by the customer or sump other group .
Page -3 fOtVNTUI':N Mlil!'I' INC -NN1.D COUNTY , liiiI:11'1 2/ I4 / 8
COMl'AN I LS , AND I'OSTAI, tilfltV l Cll
$60 , (I00 per block would he necessary for service on both sides of
the alley . Another cost that might be overcome would ' involve
tearing up the streets . The cost of boring under 8th Avenue to
Greeley National was $ 16 , 000 . Cost depends on whether they had to
work on it one block at a time or could tear it up and do it all
at once . Costs involved in obsolesence of materials would run
$ 14 , 000 . They favor this system, hut the cost involved would range
from $ 160 , 000 to $ 200 , 000 a block . The cost of a new area is
comparable to this . The mall has a looped system. Mr . Ewald noted
that these numbers arc just showing the magnitude of this , because
they want people to understand what the costs would be .
John Dietz asked for comments from representatives of Mountain
Bell . Mr. McFate pointed out that Greeley National provided them
with the conduit and they just put it in . Now all four main alleys
will be rebuilt with a new aerial plant . They have the same basic
problems as Home Light F, Power, hut they don ' t have to loop .
However, this is very expensive and someone must pay for it .
John Dietz asked for comments from Greeley Gas representatives .
Mr. lluitt pointed out that their costs arc different because they
always go underground , but the problems are the same . He congratu-
lated the Commission on the hours they have put in on this . As
far as parking , he has noticed that his employees usually drive
the three blocks to get downtown instead of walking.
Mr . Sasaki noted that he heard recently that Mountain Bell is going
to a new system. Mr. Rhoades replied that they have a main
building which consists of the operators plus 40 maintenance
people . They have also occupied the old United Bank building with
40 administrative people and the Joslins building with 100 people .
They plan to eliminate the operators , which will mean a reduction
of about 60 employees here but a total reduction of only 40 employees ,
the others to be put in other positions . They anticipate a net
gain of about 15 employees per year through 1980 . At this time ,
their leases arc close to termination , and they have not made any
decisions as to whether they will leave the downtown or try to
reinstate their lease . Half of the second floor of the 926 building
will he empty for 'extra use due to the reduction of operators . Mr .
Sasaki asked if they forsce staying downtown because of the financial •
community , county complex , and other utilities . Mr . Rhoades replied
that they see no reason to leave downtown .
Mr . Torres , from the U . S . Post Office , noted that they have a •
parking problem also , since their customers seem unable to find
parking . They are looking at some alternatives , such as putting
something out west . They wouldn ' t leave downtown , but may put
another office out west of town . John Dietz asked if he received
complaints due to the one way streets . Mr . Torres replied that
he does .
Page 4 DOWNTOWN MELTING- -WELD COUNTY , UTILITY 1/ I 1/ "'ti
COMPANIES , ANI) POSTAl. SERVICE.
•
Mr . Keirnes asked if anyone had any ideas on what they would like
to see downtown , whether it should he service or retail . Mr .
Carlson asked whether they didn ' t forsee more business out west .
There seems to he no more room for new businesses , they have a
hard enough time meeting the requirements as it is and he sees
no space available.
Mr. Roc commented that he used to think in terms of a big parking •
• lot , hut if people won ' t walk very far, then maybe there should he
a few smaller ones . He still views downtown as a shopping center
because he ' s used to shopping there , hut he would go somewhere else .
Most business comes from the downtown employees . Mr . Huitt noted
that his employees complain about not being able to park near
the stores . He is sure that all businesses downtown are fairly
marginal . Mr. Keirnes asked about doctors locating here . Mr .
Huitt replied that he likes to see doctor ' s offices near the hos -
pital . Mr. Clift asked why anyone shops downtown if there is no
parking . Mr . Roe noted that most customers are also employees
downtown .
Ms.. Steinmark compared driving to the mall with downtown and noted
that parking downtown is more stressful . The mall concept of
going inside once is very good compared to going in and out in
bad weather , which is a problem for the shopper. The walking
problem is a phenomenon, people will walk long distances in the. mall
because they don ' t have to worry about the weather . if downtown is
to work , there must be a mixture of services and it must be pleasant .
Mr . Dietz asked if Pearl Street would he an example . Ray Pouts
commented that Grand Junction has kept their downtown going great .
Mr . Mauldin noted that they had some problems and a few shops-
went out of business . Small businesses folded because of the
shopping facilities . The City bought up lots for parking and had
access to the rear as a second entrance . Mr. Pouts commented
that his wife won ' t come downtown in had weather because she can '.t
get out of her parking space .
Mr . Specman noted that people arc wrestling with economic oppor-
tunities . fs it better for business to stay downtown or move to a
mall ? They must get economic figures on this , hut it is not
aesthetically pleasing to have stores out . in the open . John Given
noted that the people present represented the non- retail and asked
how the outcome of the downtown would affect their businesses . Mr.
Ewald replied that the utility companies do not rise or fall on
the downtown. They are involved in the end result of the downtown ,
though , as it would affect each individual as a citizen . Ms .
Steinmark pointed out that the County has made a commitment to stay ,
but the County government would become more isolated if everyone
else left,
Mr. Jacohucci noted that merchants at the mall pay higher prices
to pay for parking . Maybe the merchants should organize to make
it more pleasing . Mr . Specman noted that they should also look
• -• !Th
Page S DOWNTIMN MEETING- WELD COUNTY , UTILITY / I1 ' "8
COMPANIES , ANI1 POSTA1, SERVICE
at other parts of the downtown . Is everyone leaving , and if so , why?
Mr. Cummins asked if the group felt that improving parking would make
a viable downtown. Mr. Torres commented that it must be made more
pleasing to the eye . Mr. Roe pointed out that rent in the mall
is more expensive . Parking is a factor but doesn ' t guarantee that
more people will go by the downtown businesses . He doesn ' t think
parking will solve all the problems . Mr. Cummins noted that
aesthetics are important. Mr . Specman pointed out that the problem
is not just parking hut how to get where you' re going once you
park . Also , arc the operations active during the evening .
Mr . Keirnes asked what these people could work out with their
employees to work with the City in addressing the problem if
parking is the problem . Do „ they feel any sense of commitment?
Mr. Rhoades replied that the phone company would be more than
happy to participate . Most of their people park off of the fringe
from 10th to 13th Streets . They have encouraged car pooling and
bus usage , but they don 't think the phone company can afford to
buy a house to put in a parking lot , and the bus service couldn ' t
handle all of their employees . Mr . Roe noted that they have
problems with their regulatory body too , hut think they have an
obligation to it . Mr. Ewald commented that most of their people
• park down at the depot. Only two or three people park in the City
rTh permit areas . They feel a commitment to provide something , but
can ' t get into anything major. He feels that the employers do
have an obligation here .
Mr. Sasaki questioned what affect they would anticipate if it
were made more inconvenient for people to drive and park so they
would have to walk to their services . One advantage of the mall is
that people are walking by the businesses instead of driving
around, so if people had more trouble coming into your business ,
maybe they would also generate more business elsewhere .
Mr . Cummins asked what percentage of their customers pay their
bills by driving in . Burl lluitt replied that he could find out
how -many people come in and pay hills and how many mail their
payments . Mr . Ewald replied that about lS of their customers
come in to pay their hills .
Mr. Jacohncci asked what had happened since Loveland put theirs in .
Mr . Sasaki replied that they are trying to get information on this
as well as Cr,ind .function . Staff is also gathering other information
while these meetings are being held .
Mr. Specman referred to Mr . Sasaki ' s question on moving parking
further from the downtown . If parking was taken out , something
would have to he done aesthetically right away. Something should
be done for the people who are walking , especially in the winter
time .
Page 6 DOWNTOWN MEEtING--19111,11 COUNTY , liii1. ITY 7/ I1/ 7S
(� •
COMPANIES , ANDPOSTAL SERVICE
Mr . Ewald noted that walking in had weather to pay n hill is totally
different from walking to shop .
Mr . Roe noted that the public is enthused with the mall effect , but
the person owning the store is the one with the real problem.
Mr. Cummins pointed out. that the merchants didn ' t seem nearly as
worried about parking as the people present at this meeting . Maybe
parking isn ' t the real problem . Do people simply prefer a mall
to the downtown? Mr . Roe replied that it depends on whether it ' s
a weekday . On the weekends they don' t care where they go to shop .
Mr. Fennelly commented that he enjoys going into the mall .
Parking isn ' t going to solve the problem. Some aesthetics must be
involved. Mr. Specman asked if the merchants indicated a willing-
ness to stay downtown . Mr. Dietz replied that the willingness was
varied . Mr . Keirnes added that the merchants wanted to have the
retail services maintained.
•
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