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Home My WebLink About720657.tiff WELD COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION - EXECUTIVE SESSION Date : February 7 , 1972 Subject : Indianhead Subdivision Applicant : Interladco , Inc . Planning Commission members present : Philip Bowles , Chairman Glenn Anderson Ronald Heitman J . Ben Nix John Watson Leonard Bartels County Commissioners : Glenn Billings Marshall Anderson Harry Ashley Others : Sam Telep , County Attorney Ben Cruce , Coordinator, Regional Planning Commission Larry Simpson ,' NoYthern Colorado Water Conservancy District Burman Lorenson , Planning Director 720657 Mr. Lorenson : The original reason that the Indianhead Subdivision was on the agenda between the County Commissioners and the Planning Commission tonight , it that there is nothing in our regulations which allows it to clearly to get from the Planning Commission to the County Commissioners , if the Planning Commission turns it down flat , and Indianhead people say that they' ve got to get to the County Commissioners , that they ' re not taking "no " from the Planning Commission . They want the County Commission— er' s ear on the subdivision thing , and I feel that the way the State Land Use Commission is aiming these things and the way the County Commissioners want in general , that , why , a subdivision is turned down , there should be some provision to take it to the County Commissioners as a formal matter. At any rate , that ' s the first question . We should create a way to get it from the Planning Commission to the County Commissioners when there is an absolute denial by the Plan- ning Commission . What do you want to do? Mr. Telep : That' s the question , right? Mr. Lorenson : Yes , that' s the first question . Mr. Watson : Well , we ' ve had others that have gone to the Commissioners that were turned down . Mr. Lorenson : On a subdivision plat? Mr. Watson : Yeah , Foster and Schott . Mr. Lorenson : Foster and Schott was not a sub- division , it was a zone case . Mr. Watson : A zone change . Mr. Lorenson : It was a zone change and that was built in . -1 - Mr . Watson : Yeah , alright. Mr . Lorenson : This is a subdivision and (inaudible) it was multiple family , they ;were going for a unit develop- ment plan which required a zone change , they went through all the stuff , the Commissioners approved it , but it was a zone change . Mr . Watson : This is a zone change too. Mr . Lorenson : Well , this last proposal is , but the subdivision that ' s before you on Indianhills is a sub- division and not a zone change . Mr. Nix : Well , I don ' t know whether this is the right time to interject some , what I consider, to be pretty pertinent facts involved in this matter or not , but I think Larry can throw some , some light on the subject , and this is one reason why I asked him to stay tonight , and come to this meeting . I think we contended the things that are in pro- cess on at least the things that - - - - information that I didn ' t have prior to tonight with regards to water , etc . , If there ' s time for it , Burman , I think it would be well for Larry to tell us what he knows . Larry Simpson : Well , part of this , of course, I ' m sure Burman was going to talk about , concerning the meeting we had with the Little Thompson Valley Water Dist- rict and Burman , to supply water to these people . It also goes back to something that came up on the Utility Board in Larimer County about , oh two and half months ago , maybe three months ago , in that Poudre Valley Fire Protection Dis- trict , rural fir protection district , presented their case that the fire underwriters , the National Fire Underwriters , were looking at , very carefully a+ Larimer County , because • -9- they were allowing subdivisions similiar to this to go in without providing adequate urban fire protection . In other words , relying on tanker trucks and this kind of thing . Consequently , the Utility Board recommended for adoption and to my knowledge , it ' s either been accepted for adoption or possibly even been , adopted at this point , that a minimum fire underwriting requirement for fire protection be re- quired in all subdivisions in Larimer County. Now this in- cluded six inch water mains , a five-hundred gallon per min- ute capacity - - - at adquate pressure for the fire trucks to utilize in putting out fires in these high density areas. By high density , there may be one or two acres on the lot , but they ' re still 120 units here. Now if you got a fire going , it could cause some real problems . Anyway , in an effort to protect insurance rates throughout Larimer County , there ' s an effort being made to require that adequate fire protection be made . Now , as far as Indianhead goes , and this is strictly an informal comment made by Lovilo Fagan , he indicated that , as Burman will undoubtedly report here in a few minutes , that it ' s going to cost them a lot of mon- ey to put in water supply to this thing anyway. Lovilo Fagan indicated that if they , if Weld County, put the stan- dard which Larimer County is requiring as far as fire .pro- tection on this , it would almost be impossible for him to serve water to them. Mr. M. Anderson : Well , is that , is that fire district in Larimer County , fire district come out of Lari - mer County - - - - Loveland? Mr. Simpson : No , this is Poudre Valley , which comes out up around LaPorte . Mr. M. Anderson : No , but I mean who , what . is -3- • • there a rural fire district in the area? Mr . Simpson : Oh , you meant for fire protection for this one? Mr : M. Anderson : Yeah . Mr. Simpson : I ' m really not sure , I would imagine it would be Johnstown or Loveland , one of the two . I would guess it would probably be Loveland , the Loveland Rural Fire District , but - - - - Mr. M. Anderson : Have they made the statement that they ' re going to require that? Mr. Simpson : Larimer County has made that state- ment . As a matter of fact , we ' ve been tabling subdivisions until the subdivision plats on the Utility Board until they could - - - there are two things we have been requiring , one is , that they furnish us a plat that show all of this type of thing on it before we begin our review. Number two , that they furnish us either a written commitment or a contract from a water company agreeing to meet all the water require- ments for that subdivision . This is what we' ve using on Powderhorn . Mr. M. Anderson : hollaring all the time , we ' ve missed both here . I ' ve been screaming about this Colony Park thing over here , that Sears deal , that' s one reason I was against it on account of the fire protect— ion because LaSalle ' s fire district , that ' s in LaSalle ' s fire district and the fire station ' s on the east side of the railroad track and the train would block that track for 30 minutes and they got all that distance to go across the highway and across the river bridge at LaSalle and I think a Evans is the closest one to it . Everything could burn up out there with that density he ' s talking about before La Salle could every get over there . They haven ' t no business on the north side of the river. Evans , I don ' t think would go with second choice . I don ' t think they could go out there . Mr. Nix : Why don ' t you expound a little bit , Larry , on what ' s involved towards water lines are concern- ed , cost and so forth to adequately serve and protect this . Mr. Simpson : Well , as far as I can tell from what Lovilo Fagan is pointing out , he has no mains in this area that could serve this kind of fire protection . The water supply itself, I ' m infringing a little on what Burman was going to report on I ' m sure , but the water supply it- self for this area is going to require at least an $80 ,000 water supply tank plus , I believe Burman figured out , about $10 ,000 to $20 ,000 worth of mains that Little Thompson Val - ley Water District is going to require that they build be- fore they ' ll even begin to serve them, in addition a $750 per unit tap fee which strictly and formally Lovilp indi - cated that the Board will probably up considerably in the next month or two . They are afriad of the fact that this is. infringing an their plant investments that they -present- ly have , in other words , their treatment facilities and the Little Thompson Valley Water District is faced with a limit in the amount of water they can supply at this time , parti - cularly during the winter periods from Carter Lake , their source of supply , without putting in a very expensive out- let coming into Carter Lake , and every time they serve some- thing like this , it ' s going to put them that closer to the day they ' re going to have to put out several hundred thousand -5- for this outlet . These are the things his Board is consid- ering and they ' re very agitated about this . He felt , strictly and informally again , he felt they were going to do something in the very near future . Mr. Nix : Burman , I didn ' t mean for Larry to take away any of your words , but I thought that - - - - , Mr. Lorenson : I enjoy relaxing - - - - . Mr. Nix : I thought everyone concerned here ought to know some of these facts , before these people go to the point of pushing us over the ledge . According to the legal advice , why we don ' t have a leg to stand on . Mr. M. Anderson : If they can ' t get water , this just builds up . Mr. Simpson : Well , this is one other point , aside from this , Interladco now has a trailer park development on I-25 , they ' ve got Powderhorn , and they' ve got this . Just in Powderhorn and their trailer park alone , they ' re going to require , they ' re going to have to obtain 2500 acre feet units of Big Thompson water to give the Ft. Collins-Loveland Water District before he ' ll serve them and he wants that intact before they even consider serving .them. They' ve given him money to buy the stuff but he ' s only been able to buy 100 acre feet units to this point . This I got from a man on the side . Now if they go .on this one , they' re going to re- quire that much more water and I ' ll guarantee you Little Thompson Valley Water District is going to require at least 1 acre foot per unit in this . Mr. Watson : Now , is this 1 acre foot plus the $750 . 00? -6- Mr. Simpson : That ' s plus the $750 . 00 . Mr . Watson : So , you ' re looking at $1050 . 00 right there . Mr. Simpson : Yeah , they talking $285 if they go on a rush market on it , they ' re talking $300. 00 . There ' s a couple other firms that I don ' t want to mention at this time , but there are a couple other firms that are looking for a lot of Big T water also , so the market ' s not going to get any cheaper. Mr. Cruce : Well , Sam, at the present time , can the County actually require the water with the present sub- division regulations? Now with the new model regulations , subdivision regulations that we ' re supposed to amend , it in- cludes adequate water. Presently , we would have to depend entirely upon the water districts , seeing to it that there was adequate water. Mr. Telep : Ben , you have a good point there . As far as , as far as the economics of this thing goes , I think that ' s a , we can ' t get involved in the economics of this thing because a man can come up here and if it ' s going to cost 'five million or fifty million , if they have the money, you ' re shot out of thesaddle , but the feasibility -part of it , do they have the water, do they have all these other ut- ilities , do they have these various things that you have to satisfy yourselves before you give your sign of approval , and then , too , coming , going from you with the recommenda- tions from the Planning Commission to the Board of County Commissioners and perhaps it must go that way for want of a better way to vote , because the Board takes the political heat , I might as well tell you that and so will the Larimer County Board take it. But I think that this whole darned thing along with that deal west of Windsor , should go to the Regional Planning Commission , if it hasn ' t gone so far, and I think this is the way we have to go . I deplore the fact that we don ' t have the Comprehensive Plan built up so that we could have these standards to go by , but the stan- dards we ' re going by are self made . Now , I don ' t know whether a court will buy them or not , and I think that eventually if the Board , because of the recommendations that it receives from our Planning Commission , because of the recommendations it gets from the - - - Changed tape . the thing here is going to have to be done to the entire satisfaction of the Board of County Commissioners because if I were on the Board of County Commissioners , you could never please me. See this is what the court looks at . Mr. Nix : - - - - say it' s anything that' s reasonable . Mr. Telep : Yeah , well this is the only area we have to work in , the reasonableness of this , of this pro- ject , of other similiar projects and somewhere along the line we ' re going to have to have a head-on , and I think that we have something going here in this area , in that we have the only Regional Planning Commission in existence , and correct me if I ' m wrong , the Larimer-Weld County Reg- ional Planning Commission . That ' s a correct statement , isn ' t it? Mr. Cruce : I think this is the only one . Mr . Telep : I think this is the only one , such as it is . 0 . k . , and we ' re in our infancy , I realize that , but -8- We have something going and I think that this Comprehensive Plan to get some standards out so these potential , probable subdividers will have something to look at . They come in here , I don ' t know whether it ' s good or bad , I don ' t know about the police protection and fire protection and things of that nature and I think that these things are something that we ought to look at and I think this is where reason— able minds might differ , but you have something , and I ' ll agree with you , Ben , when you say reasonable in that regard . Mr. Nix : Well , Stobbe is hanging his hat on the fact that his company bought this land two or three years ago and that they represent a bunch of stockholders and they didn ' t know what they were getting into and a whole bunch of stuff like this and I don ' t know whether, how many people he ' s talked to , but he ' s twisted my arm every since they , that meeting that I objected to going along with this thing and told him straight forward that I wouldn ' t go for it . Mr. Telep : Well , you still haven ' t changed your mind? Mr. Nix : I haven ' t changed my mind a bit. • Mr. Telep : 0. K. , weft -I think that when 'you come right down to it and when you have all of the facts presented to you , by Burman and the Planning Commission , and then when the Board of County Commissioners is suffic- iently advised on this thing here , they can make an intell - igent judgment and decision and if the people who this thing affects are not satisfied , they can go elsewhere . They can go to the courts . We ' ll do the best we can , but I think that you have a similiar problem with the Larimer County -9- Board of County Commissioners and its Planning Commission and then again with this , you some support , moral support , if nothing else , from the Regional Planning . You have a togetherness thing here , any time you have something that ' s so close to the boundaries of your two Counties that compose the Regional Planning , I think that you should stick to- gether on this thing , you should stick together. For good- ness sakes , you ' ve got the Larimer County Commissioners with one philosophy and you with another, you ' re going to go down the road . Mr. Billings : Sam, this is exactly where the prob- lem is . I have talked to both Warren Wolover and John Mitchie and they say that on Powderhorn that they meet all of the requirements for the water, sewer, roads , the util - ities , they ' re going to do it . Mr. Telep : This is exactly what is before you . Mr. Billings : I know , but . I say your saying , if we get in agreement , they' regoing approve , they ' re going to approve Powderhorn . Mr. Telep : This , this , I didn ' t know that. Mr. M. Anderson : - - - - if they. can ' t provide ' the water , why; they automatically Mr. Telep : - - - - you have the utilities , you have everything you want , what ' s your objection? Mr. Billings : I don ' t have any objections but what I ' m saying here is that just what' s been explained. If the water is this tough to get and the utilities are going up and the streets are going to be this tough to get , -10- • and—if Larimer County is going to approve theirs under these payments , then hot, can we ( inaudible) they ' d shoot us right out of the court . Mr. Simpson : Powderhorn get going , if they want to pay the price they can build . Loveland-Fort Collins will furnish them the water. Mr. Billings : That ' s the same thing that I ' m saying , what I ' m saying here , if they pay the price , you can ' t keep from furnishing this . Mr. Simpson : They are going to build a complete sewage treatment plant down on the river, - - - - going to build a sewage treatment plant for Powderhorn , they - - - - police station , fire station , schools , the whole bit. The only problem that I can see , is they' re going to have diffi - culty surmounting is that , I think they' re required to meet , they can consolidate the area under one school district. Presently they ' re split right down the middle . Mr. Nix : Did you hear what I said Glenn? Mr. Billings : No . Let me explain what they had said to us when we talked to them at a Board meeting one day, They wanted to talk to us and I asked specifically, and I know that Marsh and Harry was agreed on that they wouldn ' t , if they hadn ' t , they would have said so , we told them if this came out of the Planning Commission , there wasn ' t any way we would approve this on half-acre lots with- out adequate water for the total subdivision , adequate sewer for the total subdivision , and a package sewer plant , not septic tanks , but a package sewer plant and all of the roads in according to County specifications , these are asphalt roads and curb and gutter , what else? And the utilities in • • accord#ng to what the Utility Board wanted , and what they want to do is go to half-acre lots instead of acre and I told them , for myself , there would be no I would approve it unless all those requirements were met , and from what ' s going on here tonight , it ' s going to be harder for them to even meet the water requirements that we were thinking about originally , because the Little Thompson is going to require a big tank down there for storage and water pressure you ' re talking about , you say , another $70 ,000? Mr. Simpson : $80 ,000. Mr. Billings : Or $80 ,000. The other thing Glen Paul brought up this afternoon , how in the hell are they going to get their sewer line down to the river. This is their problem and not ours , cause they have agreed to a package sewer plant on these half-acre lots , and the last thing was , that it would be a , even though they put in all of the sewer lines for the total subdivision , all the roads for the total subdivision , all the utilities in the total subdivision , and they ' d come back on a Planned Unit Develop- ment , they agreed to set off a space for a park and for school if necessary. I notice in this they' ve got some park area , and we suggested a low profile , small shopping center , which I notice they ' ve .got in here. Well ,, I think on what Larimer County has told me that they, they they' re going to have these tough requirements and approve Powder- horn , that we haven ' t got a chance in hell in the court with this thing here , now I may be wrong . If I ' m wrong , I ' ll go any way you want to . I think all that this needs to be brought out . Mr. M. Anderson : Well , I think they got the key to it tonight , Big T er-huh , the Little Thompson Water, and -12- the -thing is , we need these underwriters to back us up on the insurance . Mr. Watson : Yeah , this insurance thing is really something . Mr. Billings : You ' ve got the key on water and sewer , because they can put in sewer facilities for this whole thing , they can put in a package sewer plant , but how are they going to get right-of-way to take it down to the river? Mr . Watson : They ' d have to buy it , they ' d have to buy it. Mr. Nix : Of course the Conservancy District has no control over this water , about who can own it - - - Mr. Billings : If they ' ve got the money , you' ve got to sell it is that right , Ben? Mr. Nix : Well , if they can show, justification , we ' ve got to transfer it. We don ' t have anything to do with the selling of it. Mr. Cruce : Of course , they could show justificatic Mr. Nix : Yeah . Mr. Cruce : Well Glen , what you said , was repeat- ed to me when I was over at Larimer County last week , last Wednesday and I think that ' s exactly what you ' re looking at here . The only question is , that , in the Subdivision Regu— lations at the present time , the standards for adequate water, and standards for adequate sewer , is really not in the Subdivision Regulations . -13 - Mr. Billings : They are not in there , but we have , we have them as a requirement . Mr . Cruce : You can make them as a Planned Unit , you can do it , see . If it was just a standard subdivision , they might get around - - - - . Mr. Billings : Resolution , on roads and water ( inaudible) . Mr. Lorenson : We ' ve got the roads . Mr. Billings : Yeah , but we been requiring a contract for adequate water - - - Inaudible . Mr. Billings : But I have no objection to which way you want to go on it and I hope all this - - - brought out and exactly what Larimer County was doing because if they we ' re going to say , "No , we ' re going to take it to court" , well I think that that is their position , but if they' re saying , "No , we ' re going to approve it if they meet all these rigid specifications " , it leaves us hanging on a limb . Mr. Nix : Glenn , are they waiting for us or are we waiting for them? Mr. Billings : No , I don ' t think either way, ac- cording to what they said . They said as soon as it came before their Board and with all the requirements on water and everything else , if they met these requirements , 'they were going to approve it . Inaudible . -14- Mr. Watson : I was going to say , they haven ' t got to the Planning Commission or anything , haven ' t got the - - Mr. Simpson : Indications are , it will be quite a while before they ever clear the Utility Board . The State Division of Highway is on their back right now over the whole thing . It will be a long time - - - - . Mr. Telep : Glenn , in answer to your question , I think , I think that both Planning Commissions and both Boards , if they , if you haven ' t gotten together 100 per cent , you sure should because if you can ' t operate together, pretty closely as you have been in the past , I know that they have no jurisdiction here and you have no jurisdiction there but you have some togetherness in the , on the Regional . I think that you should have some uniformity there , because divided , you ' re going to fall . Mr. Nix : Powderhorn is next door neighbor to both Counties . Mr. Telep : This , is , Powderhorn is evidently, I ' m lead to believe , that is similiar to this deal . Mr. Watson : It ' s much much bigger, considerably bigger. Inaudible. Mr. Telep : There you are . I think that you should get together and get your rules straightened out so that you wouldn ' t be so far apart because in the interest of the human habitation and the interest of having probable water , which is our first priority in the State of Colorado , we ' re going to have problems , I ' ll guarantee you that . Inaudible . -15- • Mr. Telep : - - - - something else , that another thing you can require , whether , how much weight it will have , depends on what they want to do with you . If you ' re going to deny it on that basis , they may take it to court , and I don ' t , you know ' the way the courts are today , you don ' t know hoed the hell they ' re going to rule . Mr. Cruce : They should have to bring a contract - - - in the regulations . Inaudible . Mr. Simpson : I saw a copy of the thing in print not very long ago , a month ago and it was supposed to be going to the County Commissioners at that time for approval but whether it ' s actually been approved , I don ' t know. Mr. Cruce : No , they ' re still negotiating for sewage because they wrote to the Windsor Town Council - - - Inaudible . Mr. Simpson : Powderhorn is , from all I could de- termine at the last Utility Board meeting , the things we required of them at that , I don ' t think - - - - , it will be quite a while before they get it , because they' ve got a lot of red tape to go through . Mr. Lorenson : Well , the question that again is before us , how does the subdivision , you don' t think , how does the subdivision get from the Planning Commission to the County Commissioners in case the Planning Commission flatly refuses? Mr. M. Anderson : Give us some reasons , we can sure tell it to them . - lb- - Mr. M . Anderson : Give us some reasons , we can sure tell it to them . Mr. Watson : Well , if they want - - - - Mr. Heitman : Well , there ' s no formal way to get it to you right now. Mr. M. Anderson : I got into it with them right out there in the hearing . A week later, after that hearing out there , he come to us with his tail between his legs and tried to - - - to nice to us . I told him to get the hell out of there , that we didn ' t want to hear nothing about it until the Planning Commission . What he was trying to do was get us to commit ourselves , wasn ' t that the way you read him Glenn? Mr. Billings : Yeah , he was trying to get us to commit ourselves and we said we ' d be glad to sit there and listen and , but they ' d have to go back through the Planning Commission . Mr. M. Anderson : He was trying to bad mouth us just like he did Mr. Lorenson : I , I think on the subdivision thing that the Planning .Commission could send .over a Resolution to the County Commissioners suggesting the action that the County Commissioners take on the preliminary plat which would get it off the Planning Commission ' s back and to the County Commissioner ' s lap . Mr. Billings : Would that give us some time , Burman , to sit down with the Larimer County Commissioners and find out if there ' s anyway that - - Mr. M. Anderson : - -• - - - anything we can hang -17- • • our hat on , can we hang ou•r hat on this fire - - - -? Mr. Billinas : Well , here again we need to get a copy of whatever Larimer County is talking about and see what they ' ve done on it but I ' ve talked twice with John Michie and once with Marren Nolovar and they said as long as they meet our rigid conditions , we ' re going to approve it , that was Powderhorn and it doesn ' t leave us a helluva lot of choice. Mr. Cruce : I don ' t think Glenn , that you could set a rule turn this down . You ' ve got to set a standard. Mr. Billings : Well , you ' ve got the standards , and the standards ( inaudible ) . Mr. Cruce : You could write your standards , one, two , three , four and if they meet them, well , Mr. Billings : Water, sewer , utilities , streets and adquate fire protection . Mr. Cruce : Yeah , and if that is legally adopted , then they meet them , you' ve got to approve it . Inaudible. Mr. Billings : They ' re saying that they can meet everything the same as we ' ve got - - - - . Mr . Telep : The whole thing hinges on this , Ben , what you' re saying and to enlarge upon it , it hinges on this in other words this is going to be done in accordance with the rules and regulations as are contained in the Zoning Resolution (inaudible ) and not in accordance with , or not in accordance with the satisfaction of the -18- Board of County Commissioners . Inaudible . Mr . Watson : Pair. Chairman , I think to get this thing off dead-center , I , course I don ;t think this thing will ever go , but if you could go back to them and say , "Alright , prepare your PUD , bring it to our attention , bring it to us . " They ' ve got to do this . That get' s it to us and get ' s it back to them and we set the regulations so tough that Mr. Lorenson : Do you want me to tell them that you will consider a Planned Unit Development? Mr. Watson : I ' d rather consider this than the one that they had before , and I think he picked my brain , he picked Ben ' s brain and he picked Glenn ' s brain on this same thinking on this thing , and I think that , I ' d rather see this than •I would the acreage because I think this would really be first class , be done better. I don ' t think they can do it but Mr. Lorenson : Well • Mr. Watson : It ' s not for me to sit here and say they can or can ' t . Mr. Nix : If we have to buy it , then I want to see the very best possible development that can be had . Mr. Watson : Well , this is better than the acre- age . Mr. Nix: Yeah . Mr. Watson : Than the acre. Leonard , what do you -19- think -about it? You ' ve indirectly heard about this thing . Mr. Bartels : Well , I have no comment at this point , John . Mr. Bowles : Want to hear my speech? All of you are saying that if a guy ' s got enough money , that we ' ll have to let them put a subdivision any place they want to in our County , regardless of whether it ' s good for the County .: All your saying , we ' re going to write a regula- tion , we ' re going to make it tough , but if the guy ' s got the dough , he can put it any where as long as he meets our standards . You ' re , we ' re abandoning the whole thing , " Is it good planning , should it be there , and is this right"? You buy this you ' ll buy Space City West . You can make it tough and you' ll have a 755 unit subdivision additional down in the corner of the County . Like I say , if this is the only argument you got , we ' ll make it tough but if they' ve got the money to do it , we ' re going to have to permit it. You ' re a , you' re throwing the planning process completely out the window in such a thing as this , cause you ' re going to let the people dictate to you where they' ll put it as long as they meet the standards , whether it' s completely remote , ridiculous or otherwise. How can you , how can we permit this? Mr. Telep : Not necessarily , Phil . I think you have a helluva good point and I certainly appreciate your attitude on this thing , but if a man has the money , if he can buy the necessary utilities and can comply in every which way to make habitation safe , happy for people, there' s no way you can keep him out . Now , you say that you have your part in this as a Planning Commission , yes , you have -20- an ordinary planned procedure of doing this thing , because the statutes are on the books . You can go out and develop a town any where in !Meld County if you ' ll comply with the Statute and there ' s nothing that ' s going to prevent you from doing it and you ' ll have to comply with the planning processes of course , but the Planning Commission , as such , can ' t adopt a policy say , "You can ' t have a subdivision there" . No way. Mr. Bartels : It can ' t be arbitrary. Mr. Telep : Right . You know , I have to say that , Phil , so that , gee whiz , you ought to be guided someway , and I certainly feel like you do , I ' m against the God dam- ned Olympics coming to Colorado . I may step on a lot of peoples toes but I don ' t like 50 ,000 people staying here in Colorado after the Olympics are over with , just like - - • Mr. If we had a Comprehensive Plan , this would not be true . Mr . Telep : Well , if you had a Comprehensive Plan , it would be a helluva lot easier for this Board . You would have some , the , some guide lines . Mr. -Watson : We 'll have it, we hope . Mr. Telep : We don ' t have a darned thing but yet you can , right now , make it pretty rough . Say, "Look , show me where you have the utilities , that is you know the elec- tric power, the water , this and that and one thing and an- other , and Ben , I know Ben is under the gun with the Conser- vancy District, I know that , but I also happen to know as a layer that the waters of the people of the State of Colorado belong to the people , provided in that they are appropriate ' =E1 - amd put to beneficial use and the first priority is for human consumption , Ben , and not for agriculture . I want to agree with you , but the law won ' t let me . I think that in first shot , that we should have a meeting in the very very near future with both Boards and - - - - Mr. Nix : I don ' t care how much money they got , Sam , they ' ve got to have a means of conveyance , it ' s got to , somebody ' s got to bring it to them. If the people who are involved are not willing to do it , then this is some— thing else . Mr . Telep : Yeah . Mr. Nix : It appears to me, from what Larry tells me , that in order to get this done , they' re going to have to pay through the nose, but Stobbe indicates to me that his is no problem. They ' ve got plenty of nose money. Mr. Watson : I can ' t believe it though . There' s a limit to what they can spend on this thing , Ben , econom- ically. Mr. M. Anderson : Inaudible . Mr. Nix : I ' ll bet you they' ll spend $10 for $1 . Mr. Watson : Well , if they' re going to spend $10 for $1 , I agree with Phil ' s philosophy, I agree with the policy, we ' ve tried to limit the policy. Sam says we can' t hang our hat on policy , we know we can ' t. So we can just try to have policy , but I would rather have this than the acre . Mr . Nix : I agree with what Phil says and I agree with what Sam says from a legal standpoint , but there' s got to be some way to do different. I don ' t agree with - - - - -22- • • . • Mr. M. Anderson : You know , we got one place to hang our hat on , ( inaudible) . We ' ve ignored them, goes back to public relations again and we' re creating these subdivisions cut hare . I think that ' s in Johnstowns Fire District and they ' ve never asked the fire districts for a damned bit of information on what they need . I ' ve talked to a lot of fire chiefs in the last two weeks and they ' re all getting scared . And you knows all these little old two inch fire hydrants sitting around out here at these farm- ers? Half of them are dry , did you know that? All those south of LaSalle won ' t work . You hook that big pump of LaSalles ' on there and it will suck that line right out of the ground . - - - - bet me on that. Mr. Nix : Why , sure they can . Mr. M. Anderson : So , I don' t know, it looks to me like Larimer County might have the answer over there on this underwriters thing , this fire protection ( inaudible) . Right now you can get a 50 gallon minute well up .to a 100 gallon a minute well for fire protection in the mountains or any place else in the State for fire protection. The State Water Commissioner' ll exempt those wells . Mr. Cruce : Is this for fire protection? . Mr. M. Anderson : Yeah . They got them in Jeffer son County. Mr. Bowles : Back to this thing on the fire unde writers part , that that' s , if your going to hang your hat on that , you ' d better be prepared to wipe the mud off of the hat because all it does is says , "either protected or unprotected" . If the thing is located within five road miles of an existing fire house , it puts them in a class 9 -23- i • fire protection , which is approximately 8 to 10 percent less than if it ' s class 10 . You ' re talking about 30 cents a thousand when a man pays his insurance , whether he pays $10 or $11 . This is nothing . The average homeowner won ' t protest it and there ' s not a thing in the fire thing that says you ' ve got to have it here , if it' s within a fire dis- trict. I don ' t think legally a fire district can refuse to serve . It ' d be just like down southeast Weld , we cover hundreds of square miles , if somebody comes within that , and pays taxes on it , they ' re eligible for service. Now if I , as a volunteer fireman , says , "to hell with you , I ' m not about to leave my business ten times a day to go out and fight weed fires or something" twenty miles away , they can ' t force me , as a volunteer , to drive that fire truck. It ' s not going to affect their fire insurance enough for it to be any detriment to the development for a homeowner. Mr. M. Anderson : I didn' t know how much - -- - Why don ' t you tell the insurance to be like that? Mr. Watson : Well , what about this line require- ment that you ' re talking about. Mr. Simpson : Well , this is what the Larimer Coun• ty ,adopted , flatly saying , they' re going to have to have a b inch main , fire hydrants every 500 hundred feet, 500 gal - long per minute capacity out of those fire hydrants . See , they lost a building out at that pipe company out there the other side of Ft. Collins and they just lost a junior high school , just because of this . There weren ' t adequate fire hydrants . They hooked their hoses up and there was no wate So - - - - Mr. Cruce : Well , that ' s what Marsh is saying , about these rural lines . —24- • Mr . Simpson : The fire insurance is part of it , but also there ' s a certain obligation that affects the people that are going to buy homes out there . Mr . Watson : That ' s right . Mr. Simpson : And - - - - Mr. Watson : It ' s our job to help protect them. Mr. Simpson : This is part of it 1 think . Mr. Billings : This would buy us some time to meet with the Larimer County Commissioners and see exactly what they are going to do and get this information that you ' re talking about on the fire and all that. Mr . Simpson : I think Dwight Whitney has most of this available and - - - - . Inaudible . Mr . Watson : The agenda is pretty full for next time , isn ' t it? Isn ' t your agenda pretty full for the next two weeks ? Inaudible . Mr. Lorenson : The next night meeting is full . Mr. Watson : No , I mean , you couldn ' t get this on for a month , could you? Inaudible . Mr. Cruce : Phil , you know I have been trying to stay quiet , but everytime it gets to the point of the fire , the County doesn ' t have a Comprehensive Plan and everybody ' s hanging their hat on that , but it seems to me that there could be a criteria that when anything of this size comes in , that they submit to the Planning Commission sufficient information , their land use and all of the supporting data that would be required , to get you to put this in your Comprehensive Plan . Actually , maybe they ' re a little ahea of the game , but if you dont feel , now I understand your thinking and I agree with it like everybody else , I just don ' t know how to enforce it but if you cannot , in good consc " tm ce , say , "alright this would be a good thing to add to Weld County ' s Comprehensive Plan" , then it should be turned down , but you should have sufficient information to review to say , "yes , we will make this a part of the forthcoming Comprehensive Plan " , or turn it down as not being a good thing for the Comprehensive Plan . Cause you ' going to have identically the same thing , once you build a Comprehensive Plan . They' ll be coming in to get you to amend it , and you will be asking the identical questions , "is it good to amend" ? 0. K. , is it good to put it in in the first place? And now , today , I met with Dennis Scholl and Vic Meline on Powderhorn because Powderhorn has writte the town of Windsor to see if they would consider them in their waste water treatment plant . They are also negotial ing with south Fort Collins on Now the first thing I would say about Powderhorn , is that Powderhorn should be in Larimer County Comprehensive Plan . Maybe it good and maybe it ' s bad , but first you ' ve got to decide, "is it , have they given you sufficient data to add this ti the Comprehensive Plan " , and two months from it aren ' t we Burman? Mr. Lorenson : Two months away. _ Mr . Cruce : See? So , that would be the first -26- could be a criteria that when anything of this size comes in , that they submit to the Planning Commission sufficient information , their land use and all of the supporting data that would be required , to get you to put this in your Comprehensive Plan . Actually , maybe they ' re a little ahead of the game , but if you don ' t feel , now I understand your thinking and I agree with it like everybody else , I just don ' t know how to enforce it but if you cannot , in good conscience , say , "alright this would be a good thing to add to Weld County ' s Comprehensive Plan" , then it should be turned down , but you should have sufficient information to review to say , "yes , we will make this a part of the forthcoming Comprehensive Plan" , or turn it down as not being a good thing for the Comprehensive Plan . Cause you ' re going to have identically the same thing , once you build a Comprehensive Plan . They ' ll be coming in to get you to t amend it , and you will be asking the identical questions , "is it good to amend" ? 0 . K. , is it good to put it in in the first place? And now , today , I met with Dennis Scholl and Vic Meline on Powderhorn because Powderhorn has written the town of Windsor to see if they would consider them in their waste water treatment plant. They are also negotiat- ing with south Fort Collins on Now the first thing I would say about Powderhorn , is that Powderhorn should be in Larimer County Comprehensive Plan. Maybe it' s good and maybe it ' s bad , but first you ' ve got to decide , "is it , have they given you sufficient data to add this to the Comprehensive Plan " and two months from it aren ' t we , Burman? Mr. Lorenson : Two months away. Mr. Cruce : See? So , that would be the first -26- • • decision —I think you ' ve got to make . Mr. Lorenson : I think that the , Ben Mr. Cruce : 0 . K . Mr. Lorenson : The decision has been prodded at or poked at here several times and that ' s one , the Compre- hensive Plan - - - - . Mr. Cruse : Alright , what do you have to have? What do you have to have to amend the Comprhensive Plan . What are going to to be your requirements ? You got to be land use , the utilities , availability of utilities , the drainage will be taken care of, all the same things that you ' re wanting in this , so why don ' t you say to those guys , "Look , send us a complete package and we ' ll review it as to how it fits the Comprehensive Plan " . Now , I ' ve worked with Comprehensive Plans and I ' ve worked without them , and I ' d rather it would be without them really than work with them because they are always amending them. You see you go through almost the same process as you would a zoning to amend them. So , that ' s the first question I think you ' ve got to answer on this and I think that ' s the first question Larimer County' s got to answer on the other. Is it some- thing good for the Comprehensive Plan . Now , you ' ve got a consultant here , he can maybe blow this out of the air, but I think we ought to ask him , just what should be your require- ments and certainly , I agree , Bill , that just because a guy' s got ten billion dollars , not necessarily the criteria to use to determine , "is this a good place for a " . Of course it may not be after it ' s built . I know a town in west Texas that was built and nobody would live there after it was built , beautiful town . -27- Mr . Nix : What would Stobbe say if you tell him , "Go next to Greeley or go next to Windsor and buy some prop- erty and develop it within an already established municipal - ity , and take your loss on this land that you ' ve got , we ' re not going to go with you , but if you want to spend your alone; in and around Greeley or around Windsor or wherever" , is thi , does it make sense to approach him that way? And tell him that there is just no way that we can look at your proposed development? What ' s the courts going to say if they bring suit , Sam? Mr. Telep : Oh , Ben , you can ' t tell people that they should live on the fringe of an existing town or out in the boon-docks somewhere . Mr. Nix : Yeah , but you ' re not telling the people, i you ' re telling the developer , aren ' t you? Mr. Telep : Yes , like I say , if he has the where- with-all and he has everything and if he complies with the rules and regulations that have been set out , nothing you can do to stop him in my opinion . In other words , you just can ' t tell a guy , "No , you can ' t, we won ' t let you build out here in Weld County , you ' re going to have to build on the perimeter of Johnstown or Milliken or Windsor or Greeley" . You can ' t do that , because this is something ,that is guaran- teed to a man under the Constitution , both Federal and State. Mr. M. Anderson : I think our only alternative here is to make it just as tough as we can for them. Mr. Telep : I think first of all , we can talk until we ' re all blue in the face here , but I think the best thing to do is have this meeting and I would say have it quickly , because I think that the Regional Planning Commission is face -zs- • with two examples , this one here , this , this town west of Windsor and this deal here on 34 and I think that we shou have togetherness . Mr. Nix : I would agree with you 100 percent , Se I think it is imperative that Weld County and Larimer Coun get their heads together and go down the same road . )1"�eP : We have the same problem. Mr. Nix : The worst of it is , it ' s not the road we ought to be going on . Mr Bowles : O. K. we ' ve used up a lot of time . Inaudible, the question that was asked , hasn ' t been ans- wered. How does it go to the County Commissioners or do we approach them and say , "You have been turned down once, you start all over again " . Is this the approach you ' d rather have? Mr. Lorenson • Regardless of these people , I think there ought to be some way , it seems to operate this way, but they can get from the Planning Commission to the County Commissioners to make an appeal process and I think that right now we can give them a process unofficially or if the thing comes up on this one, .to just go ahead a send a Resol - ution to the County Commissioners and schedule it before the County Commissioners and let them handle it. Mr. Teleo : And the reasons why you , what you think ought to be done . Mr. Lorenson • And put , then -----__ put the procedure of- fically in the new Subdivision Regulations so that there is a clearway to get from the Planning Commission to the County Commissioners ; so we need that a i••n any.,, ..,.se and where ,I was recommending is , that the Planning Commission do nut it in a Resolution form with their reasons for denial , send it off to the County Commissioners and schedule the thing before the Board of County Commissioners on any subdivision you dis- approve . Mr. M. Anderson : Well , what' s this going to be , a denial and send it to us or approve it and send it to us? We ' ve overroad you one time and went along with you one time or two . What the hell ' s the difference , whether you deny it and send it to us or approve , we can go both ways . Mr. Billings : If I understand this thing here , Mr. M . Anderson : Let' s go the other way once , see whether we can this against you on this . Inaudible . Mr. Billings : If you went this route , it would have to be published , Marsh , and would giee us another 30 days , give us another 30 days . Mr . Lorenson : Now , if they come back with this , they ' ve got to resubmit to the Planning office , they have to take out a zone application , they have to go through the procedure , there would be again a Planning Commission hear- ing on this , and then it would be scheduled before automat- ically for a hearing before the County Commissioners , so they would go all the way through the zoning process because this becomes then a zoning question . Mr. M. Anderson : Well , what happens if they bring this over to us , say we ' ve never seen it? As far as I ' m concerned I ' ve never seen it . We start asking questions , -30- • • . where are you going to get your water , have you got a water contract and all this stuff. Mr. Telep : They ' ll come up at the hearing , Marsh , after the Planning Commission makes its recommendations to you and after you ' ve had your hearing , after the notice and all that would so take time , and there is nothing in the law that says , it' s not like a liquor license hearing where you have to make you ' re decision within 30 days from the day of the hearing , this you can sit on it because you want to get some additional information , that you ' re not sufficiently informed and you can wait 15 days , you can wait a month or 2 or 3 and then whose going to say that you' re unreasonable? See , you are being reasonable and the only thing they would have to do then is go to the court and ask for a posit , or injunction action . Mr. M. Anderson : Well , what ' s the difference -- - Mr. Telep : So , by that time it ' s summer . Mr. M. Anderson: - - - - hold you on this Brighton thing down here . You guys recommended that subdivision didn ' t you , that industrial park , we made them amend it? Mr. Lorenson : Yeah . Mr. M. Anderson : What' s the difference , we didn ' t like the looks of that , cause there was facts came out that you fellows didn ' t know nothing about . Mr. Lorenson : That' s right. Mr. Billings : If they go back through the Planning Commission , if they go back through the Planning Commission with this , Marsh , it' s going to take them more time and pro- • � r_/ 1. ,�1. n1 ._.. .. /` and then ,..., it' s 1 � L L pro- cess i t Through Luc r i ao6 i ng Comnli ssi on and + hen i � s got o -31 - be published 30 days and would buy us some time to meet with the Larimer County Commissioners and know exactly where it ' s at and - - - . Mr. M. Anderson : I ' ve talked to Warren , Dwight and all those guys and they said they haven ' t even got our head high enough , they ' ve complied with the rules and reg- ulations , we haven ' t got a thing to hang our hat on , they ' re against Powderhorn just as we are against this thing . Mr. Telep : Marsh , I think that it ' s going to be difficult for these people to go from the Planning Commis- sion to the court and say that this , that it' s been just knocked around , they , people procrastinated , because if they go to court , I ' m pretty darned reasonably sure , that they' re going to be knocked out because they ' re going to have to show the court that they have exhausted all their administra— tive remedies , see? And the court will listen on that and it ' s just a little form , and I think that council for this outfit , knows that and that ' s why they' re proceed- ing cautiously on this thing, but he knows that I know, that I ' m going to tell them that , you know , you have to ex- haust your administrative remedy , and I know the court won ' t look at it unless this is done . So , Marsh , by that time it ' s summer. Mr. M. Anderson : Yeah , but what' s the difference between this and Doug Sears ? Mr. Telep : I don ' t know any difference , that took him a long time didn ' t it? Mr. Watson : He ' s still fighting - - - - Mr . Lorenson : Douo Sears is included in the Com- prehensive Plan -32- • i Inaudible . Mr. Billings : We locked him in on Colony Park with water and sexier until they get contracts on that . Mr . M. Anderson : I don ' t know why we can ' t do the same thing on this one , a year. Mr. Bartels : Well , that means the idea of a package to be presented to you , so we don ' t sit there in the hearing and say , "What about this and? " "Oh , we can do this , we can do this " . But they have never presented anything where we know it . Mr . M. Anderson : Well , we' ve made it , Leonard , Doug Sears - - - - the day that he made it Mr. Bartels : This fellow says he can , how do we know it? Mr. Cruce : Yeah , I think you got to have a pack- age , you ' ve got to have some specifications , you ' ve got to have either a contract or a letter of intent or something to actually show that he is complying ..with all of the regu- lations , and even if it ' s a change of zoning , you' re still going to .have to determine , " Is itapart of your Comprehen- sive Plan"? And the future Comprehensive Plan .. . . Inaudible . Mr. Lorenson : The water people said unless they come with the cold cash , they ' re not going to Inaudible . Mr. M. Anderson : Well , that seems to be the magic word. I ' ve heard other guys use that line , preety near -33- • everybody - - - - the cash . Mr. Nix : They ' ve got to have the money before they can get the water. Mr. Lorenson : Well , do - - alright , to get sorr thing moving here , I ~,rant to get this thing over with , yo want us to go ahead and do , tell for. Stobbe and Associate that we will go through the procedure for a Planned Unit Development. That ' s what he' s asking by letter. I - Mr. M. Anderson : Why don ' t we just let him COME to us and we can - - - Mr. Billin s : No , it wouldn ' t give us enough time , Marsh , to bypass the Planning Commission. f Inaudible . Mr. Cruce : Because of your Zoning Resolution , you can ' t bypass the Planning Commission . I think what he ' asking , really , is a leading question , "Would you approve it? " Mr. Lorenson : . Yes , "Would you approve it if we submit that?" Mr. Cruce : Bill told him, well you can ' t, we wouldn ' t answer that question . He asked that question. Mr. Billin s : He got the same comment from me , • that "no comment" . It had to go through the Planning Com- mission , the only thing they can do is present this to the Planning Commission and see what they thought about it. Inaudible . -ix - - - - we can use , is he route ought y-i t t we tr ht . • S __ _ ' -34- • • to -go . It appears to me , I ' d say , that the best stalling practice we could use , is the route we ought to go . I hate to carry water on both shoulders but , at the same time , maybe this is the way to handle it . Mr . M . Anderson : If that comes before us and we turn it down because we don ' t like , or there ' s not enough detail and make them go back to the Planned Use Development , they' ve got to go through the whole process back through the Planning Commission for a Planned Unit Development . Mr. Cruce This is a Planned Unit Development. Mr. Lorenson : This is , a , they - - - Mr. Cruce : This will be a Planned Unit Development. Inaudible . Mr. Lorenson : But they haven ' t got all of their, they haven 't met all of the requirements of a submittal on a Planned Unit Development . Mr. M. Anderson : They haven ' t? Mr. Bowles : Somebody made a recommendation . Mr. Watson : Well , I ' ll , I ' 1 } make a motion or a recommedation that we advise Interladco that they resubmit a PUD and a change of zone to the Weld County, .Planning Com- mission . Mr. Bowles : Do I have a second , to put this in the form of a motion? Mr. Nix : I sure hate to , but - - Mr. Bowles : 0 . K. , it ' s been moved and seconded • -35- that Interladco be advised that if they wish that they may proceed to submit a Unit Development plan . Poll the members . Secretary : Nix? Yes . Bartels ? Yes . Bowles ? Yes . Heitman? Yes . Watson? Yes . Anderson? I guess . • -30_ Hello