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Home My WebLink About700344.tiff_ .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. BEFORE THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS WELD COUNTY, COLORADO Hearing on Approval of site for ) a Solid Waste Disposal Site on ) the following described property: ) A parcel of land located in the ) REPORTER' S TRANSCRIPT SW4 of Section 2, Township 1 North, ) Range 67 West of the 6th P. M. , ) Weld County, Colorado, containing ) 45 acres, more or less. ) APPEARANCES MR. SAMUEL S. TELEP, Attorney at Law, Greeley, Colorado, Appearing as County Attorney for the Board of County Commissioners. MR. JOSEPH R. MARRANZINO, Attorney at Law, 250 West 14th Avenue, Denver, Colorado, Appearing for the Applicant, George M. Norden. WILLIAM PEHR, Attorney at Law, 3380 West 72nd Avenue, Denver, Colorado, Appearing on behalf of the Protestants. Pursuant to Notice published in the Greeley Booster and the Fort Lupton Press, hearing on the above Request for Approval was held in the County Commissioners ' Hearing Room of the Weld County Courthouse at Greeley, Colorado, on Wednesday, June 3, 1970, at the hour of 2:00, p.m. , before the Board of County Commissioners, GLENN K. BILLINGS, Chairman, and HAROLD W. ANDERSON and MARSHALL H. ANDERSON, Members of the Board. 700344 WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON June 3, 1970 CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: We will call this hearing to order. First I ' ll read the public notice that was published: " A public hearing will be held in the office of the Board of County Commissioners of Weld County, Colorado, Weld County Courthouse, Greeley, Colorado, at the time specified. All persons in any manner interested in the proposed location of a Solid Waste Disposal Site are requested to attend and may be heard. " This is Docket 32 : George M. Norden. Dated June 3rd, 1970. Time: 2 :00, p.m. Request is Approval of site for a Solid Waste Dis- posal Site on the following described property: A parcel of land located in the SW3- of Section 2, Township 1 North, Range 67 West of the 6th p.m. , Weld County, Colorado, containing 45 acres, more or less. Dated April 29th, 1970, by the Board of County Commissioners by Ann Spomer, County Clerk and Recorder and Clerk to the Board. Published in the Greeley Booster May 1st and May 22nd; also in The Fort Lupton Press. I will read this into the record. Request for approval of a sanitary land fill facility by Mr. George M. Norden, record of hearing before the Board of County Commissioners, -2- Weld County, Colorado, on June 3rd, 1970, at 2 :00, p.m. At this time we would like the record to show that this cause came on regularly to be heard by the Board of County Commissioners of the County of Weld, State of Colorado, at the hour of 2 :00, p.m. , on June 3rd, 1970, as provided in the Notice of Hearing that was duly published. Let the record show that this hearing concerns the Petition of George Norden for the location of a sanitary land fill on the following described property: A parcel of land located in the SW4 of Section 2, Township 1 North, Range 67 West of the 6th p.m. , Weld County, Colorado, lying southerly of the ::Bull Ditch, and containg 45 acres, more or less. There is no provision under the Weld County Zoning Regulations for a public hearing in a matter such as this. Mr. Norden has a property right. If the property is owned by Mr. Norden or under option to purchase by him, subject to the approval of the Board as to location, such a facility as proposed by Mr. Norden is permissible in an agriculture zone, and this area as just described in which Mr. Norden proposes to put this sanitary land fill has been zoned Agriculture. The Board feels that in as much as the matter has received much publicity, it is in the best interests of -3- Weld County and the people of Weld County and Mr. Norden that this hearing be held before the Board that makes the decision, even though the zoning resolution does not require such a hearing. Petitioner Mr. Norden, in the opinion of this Board, has an established right as a property right subject to the approval of the Board only and as to location under our zoning resolutions. For the record I would like to state that this hearing has been published as mentioned and everyone hopefully has been given an opportunity to be present at this hearing and to be heard. There is no precedent for this hearing, as I mentioned a while ago, and there is no provision for it under our zoning resolution. We are here simply because we felt it was in the best interests of Mr. Norden and Weld County and because we felt the question was important enough to have apublic hearing before we made a decision. We would like to announce at this time that we have provided a court reporter and that anyone giving testi- mony will be sworn and may be subject to cross-examination. Now we are ready to begin the hearing. If the spokesmen for the petitioner and other interested parties are ready, please come forward and we will attempt to set some ground rules. -4- MR. PEHR: Mr. Chairman, before we do commence I do want this inserted into the record. My name is William Pehr. I represent the objectors in this matter. My first objection is that this Board lacks juris- diction because the statute, particularly 36-23, Colorado Revised Statutes, 1963, as amended, fails to provide and safeguard procedural due process to the objectors and to other persons who may be affected by the granting or the denial of the application for the certificate of designation. Our second objection is that, as this Board knows, there has been several meetings between the objectors and this Board, between the Applicant and this Board, and the Board has indicated preference. Because of this the objectors are deprived of a fair and impartial hearing before a disinterested and impartial tribunal, contrary to the provisions of Chapter 3, Article 16 of the Colorado Revised Statutes, the Constitution of the United States of America and the Constitution of the State of Colorado. Third, I note the announcement of the Chairman of the Board of County Commissioners, Mr. Billings, appears to indicate that this hearing is held under some authority arising from the Weld County Zoning Resolution. Is that correct, Mr. Billings? CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Yes, sir. This is in our reso- lutions. -5- MR. PEHR: It is not held under any other proceeding or any other law or statute? MR. TELEP: No, Although the Zoning Resolution doesn ' t specifically provide for a hearing, this is what you sought and this is what we' re getting. And as you probably know, and I might as well put it in the record, as long as you started to put other things in the record, there was a restraining order against this Board, and in that restraining order you asked for, you desired to request that, a hearing be held, and this is what we' re getting. So I think that in answer to your objections, I would have to recommend to the Chairman of the Board to deny both objections and proceed with the hearing. MR. PEHR: I don ' t know under which law we are proceeding. Are we proceeding under the Weld County Zoning Resolution in this hearing? MR. TELEP: Well, we are to the extent that the Zoning Resolution provides for hearings. MR. PEHR: Are we also -- MR. TELEP: Do you have any other statute you have in mind to bring up? MR. PEHR: Are we dealing with Chapter 36, Article 23? MR. TELEP: I don ' t know what Chapter 36 is, Bill. Would you tell us what it is? MR. PEHR: It deals with solid waste disposal. -6- MR. TELEP: What does it say? What provision is there, Bill? MR. PEHR: I don ' t know what you ' re asking for,. MR. TELEP: I don't know what you ' re asking for. Which one are you referring to? MR. MARRANZINO: May I say something, Mr. Chairman? My name is Joe Marranzino and I am an attorney and I am here representing Mro Norden, the Petitioner. I believe the act that Mr. Pehr is referring to, I have it as Senate Bill Number 225 of the 1965 General Assembly. Just to point out, his first objection states that there is a lack of due process, This particular act deals solely with solid waste disposal sites and facilities and provides protection that can be afforded to a person who is in opposition or who is the petitioner in such an instance. I would refer the Board to the specific section of Section 3 --or factors to be considered by the Board, which is Section 4 of this particular section of the act. And in Subsection D-2 of that particular Section, it provides: "Except as provided in this Act, designation of approved solid waste disposal sites or facilities shall be discretionary with the board of county commissioners, subject to judicial review by the District Court of the appropriate jurisdiction. " So that they do have their safeguards in the event they ' re not happy with the ruling -7- of this Board or the finding, or either party is unhappy with it they still have a right to review before the District Court. So I think the objections made by Mr. Pehr are untenable in that the Board has acted wisely in this instance in granting a public hearing so that everybody might be heard and the Board can then make a proper determination of what would be in the best interests of Weld County and the inhabitants thereof, and I would ask that the Board proceed with the hearing at this time. MR. PEHR: I have not concluded my objection, Mr. Marranzino. I want them of record. Now I note that Chapter 36, Article 23 provides for the ability of the applicant to comply with such rules and regulations as may be prescribed by the Department, meaning the State Department of Public Health, or by local health agencies. Now are there any local health agency rules or State Department of Health rules promulgated for this particular type of facility, other than that set forth in Article 23 itself? MR. TELEP: Those are the ones that are set forth in Article 23. The rules and regulations have been promul- gated by the State Health Board, Bill. MR. PEHR: Are they here today? MR. TELEP: The rules and regulations? -8- MR. PEHR: Yes. Are those rules here today where we can see them? MR. TELEP: Yes, we have them in here. MR. PEHR: Would you make these available to us? MR. TELEP: Yes, absolutely. Do you have any more objections? MR. PEHR: Certainly. I just ask that the Chairman tender to us for inspection the application of Mr. Norden so we can see what his application precisely requests. MR. TELEP: Bill, I could answer that so that we wouldn ' t waste too much time and proceed with the hearing. The application here, as it was, I think has been probably in the files -- Mr. Lorenson, you don ' t have that application, do you? And whatever it is and if there is not an application in the file, I think we can correct that by getting an application. But an application is before this Board. So, obviously you have nothing to look at, because I believe you did have a chance to look at the file, didn ' t you, Bill? MR. PEHR: I looked at the file. The record should show I did probably ten minutes prior to the hearing, and there was no application in the file. MR. TELEP: That ' s right, because I didn ' t see one. MR. PEHR: There is an application by the applicant for a certificate of designation under Chapter 36, Article 23? -9- MR. TELEP: Bill, I can ' t tell you that yes or no, because I did not see one. If there isn ' t one, the applicant will be afforded an opportunity to put in an application in writing. MR. PEHR: Then I don ' t think you have any authority or jurisdiction to conduct any kind of a public hearing. MR. TELEP: Well, my recommendation to the Chairman will be to deny your motion. Do you have any more, Bill? MR. PEHR: That ' s all I have at the moment. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: I would overrule all of your requests and we will continue with the hearing. MR. TELEP: I might add, Mr. Chairman, in answer to Mr. Pehr 's objection, that we are specifically and definitely proceeding under Chapter 36, Colorado Revised Statutes, ' 63, and as opposing counsel mentioned, whether this particular land fill site is granted or not, I think the statute is crystal clear. It 's purely discretionary upon the Board of County Commissioners, and if a party perhaps wants to take it further, you have your opportunity to go to the District Court. I don ' t know how this Board is going to decide. I haven ' t discussed it with theme But in view of the publicity that has been gathered around this particular item on the agenda, the Board thought it was only fitting and proper to afford a 30-day notice to be published and to afford everyone an opportunity to -10- be heard, and this is why we' re here. Mr. Chairman, I think we are ready to proceed. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: We would first ask for you to make your presentation on the afforded proposal of the sanitary land fill which has been designated. MR. MARRANZINO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, for the record, I 'm Joe Marranzino, and I represent the Petitioner in this instance, And I would like to call the Petitioner at this time, Mr. Norden. Would you like to have him sworn. MR. PEHR: Yes. MR. MARRANZINO: I was asking the Commissioners. GEORGE NORDEN Petitioner, called as a witness in his own behalf, being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: Q Mr. Norden, would you please state your name? A My name is George Norden. Q And what is your address, Mr. Norden? A Route 1, Box 192, Fort Lupton, Colorado. Q Are you the Petitioner in this particular action? A Yes, I am. Q And you are asking for a certificate of authority to have -11- a sanitary land fill; is this correct? A Yes. Q Would you please tell the Commissioners whether or not you own a parcel of land located in the Southwest corner of Section 2, Township 1 North,Range 67 West of the 6th P. M. , in Weld County and State of Colorado? A This is correct. Q And does this land contain approximately 45 acres, more or less? A Yes, sir. Q How long have you been the owner of this property? A I ' d say approximately around three months. Q You have actually entered into a contract to purchase this property? A Yes, sir. Q All right. Mr. Norden, did you have an opportunity to ask people in the area whether or not they were in favor or not of this particular petition that you are requesting being granted today? MR. PEHR: Just a minute. I ' m going to object. He can answer yes or no, so I can make my proper objection. Q Did you circulate a petition -- A No. Q -- regarding this matter? A No. Well, I mean not at the time. But I mean I have now. -12- (Applicant ' s Exhibit A was marked for the purpose of identification. ) Q Mr. Norden, I now hand you what has been marked for identification purposes as Applicant ' s Exhibit A and ask you if you can identify that? A Yes. Q What is it, please? A This is an application to ask the people in the community if they approve -- MR. PEHR: I 'm going to object until it ' s admitted. It should be identified as to whatever it is and then offered so I can look at it or voir dire. MR. MARRANZINO: I think he ' s trying to identify what it is. He hasn ' t read what the thing says or anything. MR. PEHR: He can recognize the petition and say it ' s a petition without having testified. Q All right. Is that a petition? A Yes, sir, it ' s a petition. MR. TELEP: Let him answer, Bill. This is an administrative hearing. We' re trying to adhere to the rules of civil procedure as best we can, but I think the Commissioners are pretty capable of separating the chaff from the grain. Go ahead. Q Thank you. And, Mr. Norden, did you personally circulate this petition? -13- A Yes, I did. Q There appears to be a number of signatures hereon and names, addresses, ages and dates on here. Did you personally witness all these persons signing this petition? A Yes, I did. Q Did anybody sign for anyone else whose name appears on here? A No, sir. Q In other words, every person who signed, you personally witnessed their signature; is that correct? A That is correct. MR. MARRANZINO: At this time I would like to offer into evidence Applicant ' s Exhibit A. MR. PEHR: May I examine this witness concerning this petition? CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: You have no objection, do you? MR. MARRANZINO: No, no objection at all. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q Where does Betty and Jack Williams live from there? MR. MARRANZINO: I 'm going to object to this, Mr. Chairman, because of the fact he just made an objection -14- that we were going to testify from it without it being admitted. Now we ' re offering it. It hasn ' t been admitted and he wants to cross-examineon it. This is completely improper. If it ' s admitted he then on cross-examination has an opportunity to examine as to every name on there. But at this point it ' s highly improper. MR. PEHR: I think he ' s right. I ' ll concede that point. I have no objection to the petition itself. MR. TELEP: You may cross-examine later. Thank you. MR. MARRANZINO: We would offer this into evidence at this time. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: The petition is accepted as evi- dence. (Applicant ' s Exhibit A was received in evidence. ) DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: Q Now, Mr. Norden, where is the location of this site in relation to Weld County itself? A Well, it ' s on the southernhalf of Weld County, and it ' s about three miles straight west on 52 from Fort Lupton, and I ' d say about a quarter of a mile to the south of 52. Q And what do you intend that this land will be used for? A As a sanitary land fill. -15- Q And what will the hours of operation of this land fill be? A Well, I propose to open it at, say, seven, eight o ' clock in the morning till around four or five in the evening, and I figure maybe on Tuesdays and Thursdays and Saturdays and Sundays having it open and then if business progresses or anything needs to be changed around where it would be more opportunity to the people, then I would keep it open say more days out of the week, or if there is enough business I will keep it open seven days a week. Q And who would supervise this land fill operation? A I would. Q Personally? A Yes, sir. And then I ' d hire someone to be at the gate at all times. Q I see. ave you established any rates that you would charge for the use of this land fill for disposal there? A I have. Q And would you please tell the Board what that rate is? A Well, there would be a minimum of seventy-five cent charge and it just depends on the size pickup load you would have and things like this. And like all your appliances, like refrigerators and this sort, would be about a buck apiece. Then you take like a two-ton truck, a big load of branches, that will run you around two bucks or some- thing like that. Like I say, it varies what you got in -16- your pickup. Q I see. Now, Mr. Norden, is this facility or is this land of yours located anywhere near a highway, a principal highway? A Not real close. The nearest highway I ' d say would be from a quarter to half a mile away. Q That ' Highway 52, is it? A This is correct. Q And is this land visible from the highway? A Well, it ' s visible, but you cannot see the main operation from the highway. Q I see. So it would not be an eyesore to anybody driving down the main highway? A No, sir, not at all. Q And what effect do you think that this might have on surrounding property in that area? A Well, I ' d say if it kept up like I 'm planning to do so, well, I ' d say it would have no effect at all. Q Would there be any burning of this disposal? A Not at all. Q Are you acquainted with the rules and regulations of the State Department of Health with respect to the operation of a land fill? A Yes, sir. Q And you are fully acquainted with this? -17- A Yes, sir. Q Have you already discussed this with the Health Depart- ment? A Yes, sir. Q And have you been given a tentative approval on this? A Yes, sir. Q And if you were issued this certificate, would you abide by the rules and regulations of the Health Department? A Yes, sir. Q And would you abide by the rules and regulations of the Board of County Commissioners of the County of Weld? A Yes, sir. Q And you are familiar with all the provisions of the particular statute in question with respect to operation of this type of an installation? A Yes, sir. Q What was the reason for your purchasing this particular property? A Well, for a great number of years there has never been anything much raised on it and I thought it would be a good location for the City of Fort Lupton and Dacono and Firestone and, well, just the whole community, just a good location where it was away off the highway. It never has been much property for growing any crops on account of so many rocks and stuff like this in it. And I just -18- thought it would be an ideal thing for something like this. Q In your opinion, you don' t feel that an installation such as this, if you complied with the regulations of the Health Board and the rules and regulations of the Board of County Commissioners, that it would not be injurious to the health or welfare or wellbeing of any of the inhabitants of that area; is that correct? A No, sir. This is correct. Mr. MARRANZINO: You may inquire, Mr. Pehr. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q Mr. Norden, when did you close the transaction wherein you acquired this particular tract of land? A Well, I can ' t remember the exact date. J. Lee Sears has got it; he' s present. Q What month was it? A March the 13th, 1970. Q When did you enter into this contract for the acquisition of this land? A In March. Q What date, please? A The 13th. Q You entered into a contract to buy and close it the same -19- day? A No. It was June the 12th. Q What was June the 12th? A The closing. Q Your date of contract was March 13, 1970? A Right. Q When you entered into that contract for the acquisition of land, were you approached by somebody to buy it? A No, sir. I went directly to J. Lee Sears. Q Nobody called you? A No, sir. Q How did you know it was for sale? A I didn' t. I just took a chance. I just -- Q Why did you go to J. Lee Sears, did he have a sign on the property? A No, sir. MR. MARRANZINO: I 'm going to object to this. I think it ' s completely irrelevant. MR. PEHR: He opened the matter up. MR. TELEP: Bill, I ' d just like to narrow it down a little bit with your permission. The way he acquired this site and how he acquired it, what ' s the relevancy of it? I mean, the location of the site is fully dis- cretionary with the Board of County Commissioners, subject to a review. -20- MR. PEHR: Sam, if you remember, these people were here and met with the Commissioners and I was here before the Commissioners, the Commissioners indicated they were going to grant this application. Now this is the thing that disturbs us. MR. TELEP: I don ' t know anything about that . MR. PEHR: That ' s why I want to know what the back- ground of this whole transaction was. I think we have a right to inquire into that matter because of that reason. MR. TELEP: Well, I ' d like to have you not dwell on it too long,will you please. MR. PEHR: Only as far as necessary. We ' re not going to belabor the point, it ' s not necessary. Q (By Mr. Pehr) There was no sign on this particular property by Mr. J. Lee Sears; is that correct? A This is correct. Q Did you go down to Mr. Sears ' office with the intention that you would acquire this piece of land for a sanitary land fill? A Well, I ' ll tell you the whole deal started, I 've lived there for 33 years and I ' ve went by there and I kept wondering what I could use that piece of ground for and what else I could do besides farming it. Q How did you know that there was a need for sanitary land? A J. Lee Sears has been a very good friend of mine ever -21- since I was kneehigh to a grasshopper and I went to him because I knew he could be trusted. Q Trusted with what? A Trying to get this property for me and reasonable and what have you. @ Did you have any indication that you could use it for a sanitary land fill? A No. That ' s why I went to him to see if I could, see if there was a possibility that these people would object to something like this. Q What people? A The people that owned it, owned the property. Q How was Mr. Sears to overcome their objections? A All I did is went to him and asked -- I didn ' t even know who the people were that owned the property. I know at one time he did sell theproperty, so I thought, well, why not go to him, being as he was familiar with the property. Q Did you have any indication from anyone that you were going to obtain a sanitary land fill permit before you closed the transaction on June 12th, 1970? A Well, I had been told I was going to get one. Q By whom? A The Commissioners. Q By the Board of County Commissioners in this case now? A Right. -22- • Mr. Billings and Messrs Anderson? A Right. Q Now when did you make written application to this Board of County Commissioners for a certificate of designation? A Well, see, I went first to them. I mean, after I knew I could have the property, and they, the people that owned the property, did not care that it was used for this purpose, I went to the Health Department first and Glen Paul gave me an okay on this property for this site. And then I went to the Commissioners which approved of it and told me that I could go to work. Q And that ' s when you started to excavate? A Yes, sir. Q Just for the record now, you started to excavate about March the 12th, 1970; is that right? A It was somewhere in there. Q And since that time you have dug a large trench about 300 hundred feet long? A Quarter of a mile long. Q Quarter of a mile long. A quarter of a mile? A Or I mean seven-tenths of a mile long. Q How many feet? A Well, I don ' t know approximately how many feet. Q Seven-tenths of a mile would be about 3,000 feet long. Is that what you mean? -23- A That ' s pretty long. It takes in that -- that whole line of property. @ All right. You have dug a trench 3, 000 feet long. How wide? A Seventy-five feet. Q How deep? A Twenty feet deep. Q Now the original question was, I didn ' t want you to for- get it, Mr. Norden, when did you make written application to the Board of County Commissioners for a certificate of designation? A I didn ' t have no written application. Q You have not made an application -- A No. Q -- to this Board. Did you pay the sum of $25. 00 -- A No. @ -- in accordance with the law? A No, sir. Q Did you not pay $25. 00 either -- do you have an oral application, so to speak, before this Board; is that correct? A There was no need. We hadn ' t done anything yet but dig a hole. Q Well, have you paid $25. 00 today for the purpose of this hearing? -24- A No, not being ' s this come up. Q Being that what ' s come up? A This. All this rucus, seewhat ' s going to happen first. Q Then you want to pay your $25. 00, is that when you intend to file your application -- A No -- Q -- after you see what happens here? A If I knew it was going to be like this I wouldn ' t have dug that hole. Q Well, I appreciate that, Mr. Norden. What I ' m trying to find out from you -- A What I 'm getting at -- Q Please, just answer my questions, would you. You did not make written application at any time -- A This is correct. Q -- prior to today; is that correct? A Correct. Q All right. Now this schedule of rates that you have testified, where is this schedule of rates, have you turned it into the Board of County Commissioners? A Pardon? Q This schedule of rates that you referred to, where is that schedule? A It ' s set by the other sanitary land fill here in Evans. I 'm just going by that one. -24A- Q Do you have a schedule of rates? A I believe that ' s set up by the Commissioners. I couldn ' t answer that. Q No. The answer is either yes or no. Do you have one? A No, I don ' t. Q You do not. Have you turned any schedule of rates of what you propose to charge to the Board of County Com- missioners prior to this hearing? A No. Q You have not prepared any? A They have the same rate all over. Q Now as I understand from your testimony, you are going to have a sanitary land fill as you described it, you are going to take various types of -- I term rubbish generally; is that right? A This is correct. Q I notice that you indicate you are going to have branches, for example. You would accept branches? A That ' s right. Q You propose to accept appliances, used refrigerators, stoves, washing machines, dryers and such things? A Right. Q Automobile bodies or parts? A No. Q No automobile bodies? _24B- A No. I plan to haul them to Denver. I will accept them, but I will haul them to Denver. I ain ' t going to bury them out there. Q You will store them adjacent to the site? A No. I won ' t even store them. If I get two or three in in one day I will haul them out the next day. Q Let ' s assume you get one in in a week. Where will you keep it during the time till you get two or three? A In the back out of sight. Q Well, you would keep it on this particular site that you are asking for a permit for? A This is correct. Q Would you also separate the other valuable metals, for example, brass and copper? A Sure. You would be silly not to. Q Used tires, is that a valuable? A No. Q That has no value? A No tires. Q Discarded auto batteries, leads, zincs, all those materials or metals would be separated by you -- A Maybe not personally by me. Q Well, I understand, somebody working for you? A This is correct. Q That ' s what I mean when I 'm saying you, I talk about you -25- generally. You would have a metal sorting operation? A Oh, not, you couldn ' t really say that. I ' m not going into -- I mean while I 'm packing this stuff in a hole or something, if it ' s there, fine, if not we' ll bury it. Q At the present if it has a value it ' s extracted, if not you won ' t? A That ' s correct. Q What are some of the other things that you would accept in your proposed dump site? A Oh, papers, cans, stumps, mostly anything. Q Well, let me say, for example, this is a farming, urban type community and there are cattle in the area; is that right? A This is correct. Q Would you accept dead calves, for example? A Yes, sir. Q Chickens or roosters, if you find one? A Yes, sir. Q Would you cover them with six inches of top soil? A This is correct. Q And that ' s what you propose to do in your operation? A Yes. Q Accept these various types of discarded items? A Yes, sir. Only thing is on an article like that, they would be buried right then and there. I mean I wouldn' t -26- wait until that evening or something. Q I understand . A I ' d bury them right when they were delivered. Q You will have a bulldozer there? MEMBER MARSHALL ANDERSON: Mr. Chairman, I ' d like to interrupt this. I think this comes under the juris- diction of the Health Department. This is operational and under the jurisdiction of the Health Department. MR. PEHR: It may be, Mr. Chairman, but it depends on what this man ' s going to do. MEMBER MARSHALL ANDERSON: He' s under the jurisdiction of the Health Department. I ' d like the questions directed to the facts. MR. PEHR: We ' d like the questions and answers coming from this man rather than the Board. You are supposed to sit as an impartial body. MR. TELEP: Bill, I think you can go on and on and ask him if he' s going to put in dead checkens or cats or whatever it is. I believe Mr. Anderson is right, that there are health rules and the rules and regulations stand as promulgated by the Board of Health. MR. PEHR: I understand that very well. What we' re trying to find out is just what this man 's going to do there. MR. TELEP: Just what the law directs him to do. -27- MR. PEHR: That isn ' t what he said, did he? MR. MARRANZINO: He said it on direct examination. Mr. PEHR: Well, he did not say it on cross- examination. And I don ' t think that the Board or anybody else should try to put words in this man ' s mouth. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: We' re not putting words in anybody' s mouth, but you ' re wasting a lot of valuable time trying to find out answers that you can find out directly from the State Health Department about regulations about how sanitary land fills in the State and county have to be operated. MR. PEHR: I understand the regulations. We' re willing to wasteour valuable time, if you want to call it that, in an endeavor to protect our land and our property rights that adjoin this dump site. That ' s what we' re doing. We don' t consider it a waste at all. I think it ' s extremely important that we be allowed to continue our cross-examination without any coaching from anyone. MR. TELEP: Bill, we ' re not coaching, but I think you ought to limit it because I still think and insist that there are rules and regulations that this man will abide by. And if he doesn ' t he will be closed up, assuming of course he gets a permit. He doesn ' t have a permit. You ' re asking the man how he' s going to run the thing. How do I know. If he doesn ' t run it right he will be -28- closed up. We have closed them up you know. MR. PEHR: I don' t know that to be afact. MR. TELEP: I know it to be a fact. If you are going to continue to proceed along this line, I 'm going to recommend to the Board that he just stop you, and you go on and make your objections known and you can take it up further, but I would like to go on into this thing as to the desirability of a place like this, in this location, what influence will it have on the surrounding area, and so forth and so on, not how he' s going to operate. MR. PEHR: The application, which is non-existent, requires the method of operation. MR. TELEP: Where? MR. PEHR: 36-23-3, Application for Certificate. MR. TELEP: Read it to me, the method. MR. PEHR: In the application, one of the things that is required to be set forth is the method of supervision and hours of operation, how he' s going to do it. Now the method of supervision encompasses the operation. I don ' t want to keep arguing about this thing. MR. TELEP: You ' re going on and on. He already answered he would take dead calves. That goes without saying he sure is going to take dead chickens too. Continue. -29- MR. PEHR: This is cross-examination. Q (By Mr. Pehr) In any event, I understand from you, you already have the approval of the Health Department you said. Which Health Department? A Well, I don ' t know. Weld County I guess, Glen Paul right behind you. Q Is this the gentleman? GLEN PAUL: Right here. A Here is the sheet that was given to me. MR. PEHR: Let ' s see it. Would you mark this, Mr. Reporter. (Protestant ' s Exhibit No. 1 was marked for the purpose of identification. ) Q Mr. Norden, I hand you what has been marked as Protestant ' s Exhibit Number 1. Is this the letter that ' s referred to as an approval by the Weld County Health Department? A That ' s correct. Q And this is all you obtained from them? A Yes. I consider it to be enough. MR. PEHR: We offer in evidence Protestant ' s Exhibit Number 1. MR. MARRANZINO: No objection. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Accepted. (Protestant ' s Exhibit No. 1 was received in evidence. ) Q I noticed on direct examination you said if this sanitary -30- land fill is kept up as you are required there would be no impairment of adjoining land values; is that what you said? A Yes, I believe this is correct. I mean, if you keep the stuff where it belongs instead of all over the fields and stuff like that. Q Well, I take it then, if it is not kept up the way it should be, it would deteriorate or depreciate the adjoin- ing property values? MR. MARRANZINO: I don ' t believe he can answer this question. I don ' t believe he is qualified. Q You can ' t answer that? A No. Q You ' re not qualified? A Hu-huh. Q You have to answer yes or no. A No. Q You ' re not qualified? A No. Q You are not qualified because you have no background of how to determine the depreciation of land values? A This is correct. I 'm no realtor. MR. PEHR: I see. That ' s all I have. Pardon me, wait a minute. Q On this petition, Applicant ' s Exhibit A, where does -31- Betty and Jack Williams live? A Just right south of this proposed land fill. Q How many miles? A Oh, I 'd say at the very most, about half. UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Mile and a half. THE WITNESS: He knows how far it is. Q You don ' t know? A No. Q Where does Donald and Nancy Winker -- A Vynckier. Q Where do they live? A That ' s north. Q How far north? A Oh, I ' d say about a half mile from your place to the north. Q From my place? UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: North and east, THE WITNESS: No, not the east. He ' s right north of you, heis on top of the hill and north about half a mile. Q Generally you are unable to state the precise distance that they live from this particular dump? A No; I didn ' t check the mileage. MR. PEHR: All right . Thank you very much. I have no further questions of this witness. MR. MARRANZINO: Nothing further. Since we ' re still on our case, I would like to point out to the Board that -32- for the purpose of conserving time I do have three wit- nesses here, one principally being Mr. Corbett, who is the Mayor of Fort Lupton. If the Board would like to hear him testify I would like to have him express his views. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: You may. MR. MARRANZINO: Mr. Corbett, would you please stand and be sworn. STEWART CORBETT Called as a witness on behalf of the Petitioner, being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: Q I just wanted to ask a couple questions. Would you please state your name for the record. A My name is Stewart Corbett. Q What is your address, Mr. Corbett? A 1025 Park Avenue, Fort Lupton, Colorado. Q Are you the Mayor of Fort Lupton? A I am. Q And, Mr. Corbett, you are acquainted with the application in this hearing today, the purpose of it; is that correct? A Yes. Q And you are acquainted with this particular property that ' s in question or have a general idea of the location of it? -33- A I went and looked the site over. I don ' t know the exact boundaries of the property, but I did look the site over. Q Are you in favor of such a site for the purpose of a solid waste disposal plant? A Yes. I have no objections. Q Would it be of any benefit to your community particularly, Fort Lupton? A Fort Lupton is in desperate need of a dump site. MR. MARRANZINO: I see. You may examine, Mr. Pehr. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q Mr. Corbett, are you speaking for the City Council as the Mayor or are you speaking for yourself personally? A Basically I guess I better say I 'm just speaking for myself. But having discussed this with the Council many, many times, I feel I am reflecting the opinion of the council. Q Are you aware that the Planning Commission of the City of Fort Lupton did not recommend the approval of this site? A After this site was started the Planning Commission -- @ Just state whether or not you are aware that they did not recommend it? A I didn ' t know they did not recommend it. -34- Q You did not know that? A No, I did not know that. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: I don ' t think that has any jurisdiction in this case, since actually according to the rules of our Zoning Code the planning commissions or elected officials within towns or municipalities have no authority outside of the jurisdiction of the city limits. MR. PEHR: Well, that ' s not quite correct. We have a three-mile jurisdiction. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: There is no three-mile jurisdiction. THE WITNESS: We have no jurisdiction over this thing. MR. TELEP: Let ' s not get into that, please. What he' s trying to tell you is, you asked him a question, you said that, if I remember, it ' s in the record, he said Fort Lupton is in desperate need. You might ask him how he knows Fort Lupton is in desperate need. He said that; it ' s in the record. MR. PEHR: Let me conduct my own examination, Sam. Just let me ask him the questions that I want to cross- examine on. Q (By Mr. Pehr) Mr. Mayor, did the City Council of the City of Fort Lupton adopt any resolution? A Regarding what? Q Approval of this particular site? -35- A No. The -- Q Thank you. A Okay. MR. PEHR: That ' s all I have of this witness. MR. MARRANZINO: Nothing further. At this time the Petitioner would rest. MR. TELEP: I imagine you represent a few protestants, do you not? MR. PEHR: I do. I have one or two. Let me first start the ball rolling by myself. Will you swear me in? (William Pehr was sworn. ) MR. PEHR: My name is William Pehr. My wife and I are the owners of a farm approximately half to three- fourths of a mile to the east of this particular dump site. We have spent approximately, overand above the purchase price, about $30, 000 in improving this land. say that, not just improving, this is without any allocation for buildings. This has been primarily leveling, land- scaping, construction of lakes, roads and so on. The prevailing wind5in our community, in which this dump site is a part, are from the west and northwest. Any debris or waste materials, any odors emanating from this dump site or any insects, flies, that are habitually -36- bred in disposal sites will blow on to our lands. We have been planning for some two years to build a home on our land, and we have made substantial preparation not only in landscaping but also in selling other land that we have. And what we propose to do and had plans for doing was to build a home having an approximate value of $40,000. There is a serious doubt in our mind, gentlemen, as to whether or not we should build a house, keeping in mind this dump site, because it is almost impossible to control a dump site. I have seen a large number of dump sites, sanitary land fills, or call them what you want, I have seen them fenced and, notwithstanding the fencing, the winds pluck the waste materials from this dump and they blow the papers and the plastics on to the adjoining lands. In my opinion, and I base it on my experience not only as an owner of land in Weld County but also as an attorney who has represented many purchasers and buyers of lands in Weld County and Adams County, but also lands that I have bought and sold, I have bought a substantial number, that this will depreciate the value of our pro- perty by approximately 20 to 25 percent, which is a substantial loss as far as we ' re concerned. I am opposed to this site. I think it should be -37- moved to some other location not near the highway. High- way 52 is a major State highway, and the last seven or eight years since I ' ve been out there the people adjoining Highway 52 have taken great pride in improving their properties. They have removed trash. They have planted trees. They have planted lawns. They have landscaped. They have removed anything that would appear to be unsightly. And it ' s my opinion that the granting of this certificate of designation would not only depreciate my property but would depreciate and impair the values of the land of my neighbors. Mr. Marranzino, you can cross-examine me if you like. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: Q First, isn ' t it true that your property is located more like a mile and a quarter from this particular property rather than a half or three-quarters of a mile? UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: It ' s actually about half a mile. MR. MARRANZINO: I 'm asking Mr. Pehr. A I 'm trying to figure. No. I think it ' s half to three- quarters of a mile. I think that ' s precisely it. Q What your observations in the past have been with respect to other land fills or solid disposal sites doesn' t -38- necessarily mean that it would be applicable in this case if the owner or user of this abided by the rules and regulations as promulgated by the State Department of Health; isn' t that true? I mean, this is speculation on your part? A No, I don ' t think it is speculation. Q The fact that it ' s happened in some other instance, ipso facto, it ' s going to happen in this particular case, too? A Say that again. Q Because of the fact that it ' s happened somewhere else that you have observed doesn ' t necessarily follow that it ' s going to happen in this particular instance? A I cannot ignore one simple fact, Mr. Marranzino, that people are going to dump whatever rubbish they have, that the winds continue to blow in this area. We have wind velocities that attain a speed of approximately 60 miles an hour. And those winds, even if they were light winds, are going to pluck those papers and those fine materials and scatter them over the countryside. We don 't want that type of pollution. Q But you really haven ' t answered my question, have you? A Yes, I have. Q You ' re saying then that it is going to happen? A It ' s impossible to stop, unless he is right there on each piece of paper and puts a clod of dirt on it. -39- Q Again it depends upon how the thing is supervised and managed and operated that might prevent these things; isn ' t that true? A It would be impossible to prevent it totally. He can prevent it to a degree. Q There are rules and regulations set forth by the Department of Health, isn' t that right, in the operation of this waste disposal? A I am not aware, because I ' ve asked for them and they were not tendered to me. Q We do have them and I thought perhaps you being an attorney and being a party interested you might have been aware of this? A No. You cannot assume that. MR. TELEP: There are rules and regulations, Bill. They will be available to you. Q You have read the statute and are aware of the fact also that the statute sets forth certain minimum standards for the operation of this type of operation? A Certainly I 'm aware of it. Q But you are satisfied as long as it doesn ' t affect you that it could be moved somewhere else, you would have no objection; isn ' t that right? Itcan affect someone else but it shouldn ' t affect you? A No, that is not right. -40- Q You think there is a need for this type of operation in our State or in this particular community? A I don ' t know. MR. MARRANZINO: I have no further questions. MR. TELEP: Anyone else, Bill? MR. PEHR: Yes, I do. Mr. Alex Miller, Please. ALEX H. MILLER Called as a witness by the Protestants, being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q Would you please state your name and your address? A My name is Alex H. Miller. I live three miles west of Fort Lupton off of Highway 52. Q Where do you reside with respect to this proposed dump site? A I reside directly across the county line from the dump site. Q Across the county road? A County road, yes. Q Is your land adjacent to the proposed dump site? A It is. Q With respect to your home, where is this dump site? A I would say one-quarter of a mile maximum. -41- Q Does your home face the dump site itself? A It does. Q Now, Mr. Miller, relate for the record your educational experience and your work experience? A Well, I 'm vice-president and general manager of the Dunton Realty Company. We employ 60 people. My business is land development, shopping centers, commercial and in- dustrial development. I ' ve been in the business since 1954. Q Relate to the Commissioners some of the area that you have developed as an example. A Westminster. Q Westminster what? A The Westminster Plaza Shopping. I developed Montview, Orchard Shopping Center, the Lerner Complex in Denver. Q Have you developed any residential sites? A Yes, I have. Q Relate two or three as examples only, Mr. Miller, not all of them. A Sheridan and Evans in the process now of 92nd and Sheridan. Aurora_ Q What in Aurora? A South of Sixth Avenue and east of Havanna. That ' s all. Q Have you purchased and sold land on your own account ? A Purchased farm land, yes, only. -42- Q Do you own any residential or apartment homes? A Yes. I own an apartment in Denver. Q Now are you able to state how this dump site would affect your land that adjoins it? A Yes. Without any qualifications on other matters, it would reduce the value of my property I would say a mini- mum of 30 percent and would set it back ten years from the time of development. Q What ' s the trend in this community, in this area? A Well, I don' t have the figures on taxes, but I do know from observation, windshield observation, that a goodly number of homes have been built directly south of me and we ' re in the path of growth toward Fort Lupton off of Highway 52. I ' ve also spent considerable money for a home. Q What would you estimate the value of your home? A I would say $45,000. Q And what would you estimate the value of your operation and the lands immediately to the west of this proposed dump site? A I would say $200,000. Q Now do you own any land then to the north and east -- A I do. Q -- of this dump site. How far away? A Quarter of a mile. -43- Q And this land would lie on Highway 52? A Yes. Q And what impact would this dump site have upon that particular tract of land? A Well, it would devalue it below what I purchased it for. Q All right. What would be your loss, in your opinion? A You mean the dump site in relation to all the properties that I own around this property? Q No. No. I 'm only talking about the 80 acres. That is 80 acres, isn ' t it -- A Yes, sir. Q -- on Highway 52 and the county road? A I would say $20, 000. Q What is its present value at this time without the dump site and operation? A Well, offering price, is this what you ' re trying to arrive at? Q No. What ' s the present value of the property? A I would say $50, 000. Q Then is it fair to state that you would lose approximately $20,000 in value? A Yes, sir. Q Now do you have any plans for the development of the land to the east of this dump site immediately adjacent to the county road? -44- A You mean west, west of the dump site? Q West of the dump site, pardon me. A Yes, sir. We had intended to make our daughter, who lives in Denver, a gift of the site to build a home in that area. Q Where would this site be located? A Within 300 feet. Q Of the dump site? A Yes, sir . Q If this dump is approved by the Board of County Commissioners, can you state whether or not you will proceed with the development of the home site for your daughter? A It will not develop. We have gone into that in the last few days. Q Now has there been any trend in availability of domestic water supply in this area? A Yes. There is a move on now to extend Left-hand past this so-called dump site on toward the bench at West Fort Lupton. Q Toward the east? A Toward the east, yes. Q Now prior to this 3, 000 foot long excavation that Mr. Norden said he ' s made, what was the most practical and highest and best use that this land could be put to? A Residential. -45- Q Why do you say residential? A Desires of people to come by and say to who owns the land, say this is where I ' d like to build a house. Even people in Fort Lupton have indicated that to us. Q Why is it particularly attractive for that? A It 's the highest spot there. Q Does it have a view of the mountain range? A It has a valley view and also mountains. Q Now I hand you Mr. Norden ' s petition, Applicant ' s Exhibit A. Please examine the names that appear thereon and tell the Board where these people live from the dump site? A Betty and Jack William, Mr. Williams is an occasional employee of Mr. Norden ' s, and they live about a mile and -- in excess of a mile south of this property. The Vynckiers live down on the river now. They just bought the Mason place, and I imagine that would be about three- quarters of a mile to the north and east. Jones lives right across the street, only a little further north from the Vynckiers. Q How far does he live from the dump site, Mr. Jones? A Mr. Jones lives three-quarters of a mile plus two miles. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: I ' d like to insert something here. Unless we can wind this up within the next five minutes or so, by quarter after three, why, we will have to continue this until Monday morning at ten o ' clock, -46- because we do have another hearing that was scheduled to start at three. (Discussion had off the record. ) THE WITNESS: I would say that these people all live a mile plus from this site. Q Run through it briefly and tell us. A Wallner lives north of this so-called Jones property. Mike Roshop lives about four miles, three or four miles, from this property. Hogelin, I 'm not familiar with, I don ' t know him. A Mrs. Yeggy Estale, I don ' t know who that could be. UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: That ' s about three miles away. THE WITNESS: And a Harry Jensen, Junior, Fort Lupton, I don ' t know whohe is. UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: He doesn ' t own any property. MR. PEHR: Okay. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MARRANZINO: Q Mr. Miller, you being a developer you are aware of the fact that there is a need in all these communities for some type of a disposal plant? A Very much so, sir. Q But you object to it primarily because it has an effect on your property? -47- A No, that isn ' t it. I object to it because it ' s in the best immediate development area in the Fort Lupton area. That ' s the reason for my objection. Q Because you are in that area? A Not at all. Q And because you are of this opinion? A I bought this property with that in mind, sir. Q How long have you owned the property? A Since 1950. Q And this other piece that you acquired that ' s southeast of this property, how long have you had that? A It ' s been in my possession about eight years. Q Under a lease or actual ownership? A Lease and ownership. Q Well, when did you acquire ownership? A I 'd say four or five years ago, sir. I 'm not familiar with the date, but that ' s close. MR. MARRANZINO: I have nothing further. MR. PEHR: Mr. Wilmoth. PERRY C. WILMOTH Called as a witness on behalf of the Protestants, being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: -48- Q Would you please state your name and your address? A Perry C. Wilmoth. I live at 1016 Park Avenue, Fort Lupton. Q What is your occupation? A I am a real estate broker. Q How long have you been licensed as a real estate broker? A Oh, since January of ' 60. Q Prior to that were you a real estate salesman? A Yes. Q How long were you licensed as a real estate salesman? A Licensed five years. Q Prior to 1960? A Yes. Q Now are you presently engaged as a real estate broker? A Yes, sir. Q And what types of properties do you generally deal in? A Well, generally anything that I can pick up to work upon; however, mostly residential and farms, tracts. Q Now at my request did you make an investigation for the purpose of determining whether or not there would be any impact upon the property values that adjoin this particular dump site? A Yes, I did. Q All right. Now tell the Commission what you did, did you inspect other dump sites and areas? A I did, yes. -49- Q What did you find? A I found, where I went and referred to were dumps that had been in operation and were closed, shut down, and a certain amount of rubbish still laying around, but they are not in operation at this time. Q Did you talk to the adjoining property owners? A Yes, I did. Q How many dump sites did you inspect? A Three. Q Did you also inspect the area surrounding this dump site? A Yes. Q Are you familiar with it? A Somewhat, yes. Q Have you lived in the Fort Lupton area for sometime? If so, how long? A Well, pardon me. I am not speaking of the dump at Lupton. Outside areas. If you want to include it. How long have I lived in Fort Lupton? Q Yes. A I have lived in Fort Lupton since ' 58. Q How long? A Wait. No. Before that. ' 52. Q How long have you lived in the Fort Lupton area? A Since 1912. Q Are you familiar with the climatic conditions that exist -50- in that area? A Yes. Q What directions are the prevailing winds? A I would say northwest and westerly winds. Q You have heard the testimony of Mr. Norden. Would those winds have any impact upon the operation of a dump site? A I 'm sure it would. Q What would be the impact? A Blowing of trash. Q What do the wind velocities reach in this particular area? A I don ' t know that they have ever been tested, but I would say 60 miles an hour, or thereabouts. Q Can you state whether or not the winds blow for a prolonged period of time? A There are times, yes. Q How long have you seen wind blow in this area? A I can ' t recall. I would say off and on each day for perhaps two or three weeks at a time. Q Now in your investigation of these prior existing dump sites, what were some of the chief complaints that you heard from the adjoining land owners? MR. MARRANZINO: I 'm going to object to this because this is hearsay as to what other landowners say. MR. TELEP: He' s right, Bill. -51- CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: At this point we will have to call a close to this hearing and continue it to a date that is agreeable to both counsel. We have got to go on with another hearing that was scheduled at three o ' clock. MR. TELEP: If you and Joe would stipulate to some- thing. (Discussion had off the record. ) Q (By Mr. Wilmoth) Let me ask this question, Mr. Wilmoth. Based upon your investigation of other dump sites, their operations, your conversations with the adjoining land- owners of these former dump sites, your investigation of the adjoining land to the proposed dump sites, the state- ments that you have heard from Mr. Norden today and the climatic conditions, are you able to or do you have an opinion as to whether or not this proposed dump site would have any impact upon the values of the adjoining property? A Yes. P And what would that opinion be? A That it would have a terrific impact on the adjoining property. Q Can you state how much their lands would be devalued? A I would say 20 to 30 percent. MR. PEHR: I have no further questions. -52- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: Q Mr. Wilmoth, you inspected other dump sites but all these sites you inspected were closed sites, weren ' t they? A Yes. O So you don ' t even know when they were open whether or not they came under the new rules and regulations? A Are you telling me or asking me? Q I 'm asking you. Do you know? A These dumps, one of them was closed two years ago or one, one five years ago and one in the past year. Q So these probably preceded the new rules and regulations. Were the homes around there older type homes? A Yes. Q You are not sure of these winds being 60 miles an hour? A There is no way. Q And these winds don ' t blow every day of the week? A We do not have a weatherman there. Q These winds don ' t blow every day of the week, do they? A No. But they come up suddenly. MR. MARRANZINO: Nothing further. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: We will call this meeting adjourned then and whichever night other than those listed, we will be glad to continue this meeting. (Continued to 7:30, p.m. , June 30, 1970. ) -53- Tuesday Evening June 30, 1970 7:30, p.m. (Applicant ' s Exhibits B and C were marked for the purpose of identification. ) CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: We will start the continuation of this hearing. If I recall correctly, Mr. Pehr, you were right in the middle of your discussion when we had to close off. MR. PEHR: I forgot what it was. MR. TELEP: If I remember correctly, Bill, you had just finished, you asked that we wait till you finish with a particular witness, with direct examination, and I don ' t remember whether Mr. Marranzino had an opportunity to cross-examine or not. But if my memory serves me correctly, I think you did, Joe. MR. MARRANZINO: Yes. I think it was Mr. Wilmoth. MR. PEHR: That ' s correct. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Property evaluations I believe. MR. PEHR: For the record I do want to make a motion at this time. The objectors move that this Board dis- qualify itself because there seems to be a prior commit- ment made to the Applicant by this Board for the issuance of a permit or a certificate for a sanitary land fill. Therefore, that would deprive the objectors of a body before whom it could have a fair and impartial determi- nation of the issues in this case; that this fact was made known at the time of the last hearing and prior to the -54- setting of the original hearing itself. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: I would have to deny your request. MR. PEHR: I understand. We call our next witness then, Mr. Jack Burger. Would you be sworn. JACK BURGER Called as a witness by the Protestants, being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q Will you please state your name and your address? A Jack Burger, Route 1, Box 402, Fort Lupton, Colorado. Q And are you acquainted with the proposed site for a sanitary land fill to be operated by the Applicant Mr. Norden? A I am. Q In relation to that site, where is your land situated? A Oh, it ' s about a quarter of a mile from the site, quarter of a mile. Q Now does the Highway 52 lie between you and the proposed sanitary land fill? A Yes. Q And where is your home located with respect to that site? A Well, it ' s on Highway 52, right across 52 about, oh, say quarter of a mile across. -55- Q Now prior to the original hearing did you have a meeting with the Board of County Commissioners at the site? A Yes, we did. Q Was there a discussion between you and the Board as to whether or not the permit for the sanitary land fill would or would not be granted to the Applicant? A Well, we met with the Commissioners Good Friday afternoon, and we talked to Norden before the Commissioners got there and he said, he told us he had a permit from the County Commissioners to go ahead and put a sanitary land fill in there. And then we talked to the County Commissioners and the County Commissioners said if we didn ' t -- they wanted to sell the place -- Q Just tell us about whether or not they made any prior commitment to issue the permit for the sanitary land fill? A Well, before that we met with the County Commissioners down here. Q At the Courthouse? A Right here. Q I see. Well, at that time was there -- A Well, they had a permit from the Health Department, a request to grant a permit for a sanitary land fill. And we come down, talked to the Commissioners and the Com- missioners didn ' t know where the land fill was. We had to point it out on the map to show where it was. And -56- Mr. Telep told them they better go up and take a look. So Friday morning they come up there -- I mean Friday afternoon they come up and we met them up there. And in the meantime it was discussed that if we buy the ground, why, -- Q Well, don ' t talk about that yet. My only question I want to have you answer, Mr. Burger, is whether or not the Board of County Commissioners at about that time made any indication to you that they were going to grant Mr. Norden a permit? A Yes. They said they would have to grant a permit in the next day or so. In fact, they called up later and asked if we wanted to make a deal or not, and we didn ' t -- well, I 'm getting ahead of you. Q Yes, you are. Let ' s just talk about whether or not they issued the permit. I m not sure the other is material. A They said they were going to issue a permit, the way I understood it. Q Now do you know which of the Board made that statement, which member of the Board made that statement? A I think Mr. Anderson. Q There is two Mr. Andersons. A Marsh Anderson I think. Q Were the other two Commissioners present at that time? A Yes, they were. -57- Q Now with respect to the approval sought by Mr. Norden, you heard him testify? A Here? Q Yes. A Yes. Q Before this Board. A I did. Q Based upon what you heard Mr. Norden testify to and your knowledge of the location of the site, the condition of the highway or the location of the highway, the prevailing winds, can you state whether or not this sanitary land fill will in anywise affect the value of your property? A It would, would affect the value. I ' ve got a corner right there that ' s pretty valuable. I ' ve had a lot of offers on it. It would be very much affected. Q Now where is this corner located? A Right on the corner of 52 and where this road goes up to the sanitary land fill, just about a quarter of a mile from there. Q Would the granting of this permit for the sanitary land fill devalue your property and if so, to what extent? A Well, I figure about 25 30 percent. Q That ' s the overall property, the whole farm? A Yes. Yes, it would. Q What would it do to the value of your home? -58- A Well, no doubt it would devalue that quite a little, because who wants to live next to a -- Q The word is dump. A Dump. Q Well, we don ' t have to worry about the words, call it whatever you want so we all know what you ' re talking about; the sanitary land fill site. Now prior to your discussions with the Board of County Commissioners wherein they indicated they were inclined to grant the permit, was there any notice of any public hearing -- A No. Q -- by either posting or publication, sofar as you are aware? A No. There wasn ' t anything. I seen them work up there. I thought somebody was going to build a house up there. I seen somebody leveling off up there, and I didn ' t give it much thought or anything. My neighbor come to me and he got curious, he was in the hospital and he come home and he went up there and he found out it was a land fill, so he come and seen me and we got in touch with Mr. Anderson here, Harold Anderson, and -- Q Did you check the daily papers to see whether or not any notices had been filed by the Board? -59- A Prior to -- Q Prior to Good Friday of 1970? A Yes, I have checked, but there was no advertisement . MR. PEHR: Gentlemen, can we stipulate that no public notice was had prior to Good Friday of 1970. MR. MARRANZINO: I think the record speaks for itself. MR. TELEP: That ' s right. MR. PEHR: I don' t know what that means. MR. MARRANZINO: Mr. Pehr, I 'm sure you do. MR. PEHR: "The record speaks for itself" means nothing. MR. TELEP: No. MR. PEHR: There was no notice? MR. TELEP: No notice. MR. PEHR: Very good. MR. TELEP: There is no provision in the law under which we operate for a notice; it ' s entirely discretionary under the act subject to judicial review of the district court. MR. PEHR: Well, that ' s a matter of interpretation of the law I think, between court and counsel perhaps. MR. TELEP: Could be. Q (By Mr. Pehr) Now directing you to your further conver- sation between the Board and yourself prior to any hearing, did the Board through any of its members indicate to you -60- what should be done to avoid the construction of the sanitary land fill? A Yes. They proposed to us to sell -- Q Let ' s talk about who. A Who did? Q Yes, who made the statements to you? A The County Commissioners. Q Which one? A Mr. Harold Anderson. Q And approximately when? A Well, I 'm not sure whether he come to see me, see us there ,just before the hearing, whether he made the statement then -- no, I don ' t think he did. Itwas after the Friday hearing I think. Q After he came up here on Good Friday? A After we met with them on Good Friday. Q How long afterwards? A Well, next day he called. Q What was the conversation that took place between you and Mr. Harold Anderson at that time? A Well, he says, " If you fellows are interested in buying that, you won ' t have that dump. '` He says, "We ' ll sell it to you. " I asked him how much they wanted for it. Well, he said a thousand dollars an acre. I told him that was out of the question. I didn' t think -- I didn' t want any -61- part of it and I didn ' t think the rest of them would, but I told him I would bring it up with some of the others and -- but it was just out of the question. MR. PEHR: That ' s all I have of this witness. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: Q Mr. Burger, just a moment, please. I think you said you were located about a quarter of a mile from this proposed sanitary land fill. A Yes. Q And when you were asked again where your house was, you said this was across Highway 52 about a quarter of a mile? A Yes. It ' s about a quarter of a mile straight across, you know, not down the road. Q Did you mean your house was situated a quarter of a mile from Highway 52? A No. No. From the dump site. Q From the site? A From the site. My home is located right on 52. Q I see. You don ' t know whether a permit ever was granted or not, do you? A No, I don' t. All I know is what Mr. Norden told me. Q Yes. Now do you feel, Mr. Burger, that there is a need for sanitary land fills? -62- A Well, that I don ' t know if there is or not. Q You don ' t? A It ' s not up to me. Q Are you acquainted with how some of your neighbors and yourself and others in that area dispose of their trash? A No, I 'm not. Q How do you dispose of yours? A Well, we ' ve got a lot of land there, we haul our trash in the washouts, in the creek along the washouts. Q So you just dump it on your own land? A Yes. Q What precautions do you take for handling these dumps? A Well, we don ' t put any paper in there or anything. Q You don ' t put any paper in? A No. Q But there are a lot of other -- A Well, cans is about all. Q Cans? A Cans. Q Garbage? A No, no garbage. Q What do you do with your garbage? A Well, I don ' t know. Q You don ' t know what you do with it? A I suppose throw it out and cover it up. -63- Q Yes. Do you follow the regulations as prescribed by the State Department of Health with respect to covering this up? MR. PEHR: I 'm going to object. There is no -- A There is no -- MR. PEHR: Just a second. MR. MARRANZINO: No. Is he familiar with it. Q Are you familiar with these regulations? A No, I 'm not. Q But nonetheless, you just do it the way you feel is the proper way? A We ' ve always done it . Q And everyone else around there does the same thing, don ' t they? A That ' s their business. Q Do you know whether they do or not? A No, I don ' t know. Q But you do? A Well, I 'm concerned about myself. Q This doesn ' t have any effect on your property, the way you dispose of your trash and rubbish? A No. We don ' t have that much. Just two of us. Q Yes. But this is over a period of time, isn ' t it, that this is done? There are only two that live there? A Yes. -64- A, Just you and your wife? A Wife. Q No one else? A No one else. Q Does your son live nearby there? A Yes. He lives down about a quarter of a mile away. Q Does he use the same disposal site you use? A Yes. Q So there are actually four people that use it? A Yes. MR. MARRANZINO: I have nothing further. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q This disposal site that Mr. Marranzino referred to, that disposal site is actually two 160 acre farm sites; isn ' t that correct? A That ' s right. Q A total of 320 acres. Does this 320 acres have waste land on it? A Yes, it has. Q Does it have gullies and washouts? A It has a creek running clear through the 320 acres and it ' F got big holes and stuff in it that washed out, that we got to keep riprapping to keep from washing more. -65- Q Do you dump your garbage that your wife accumulates from discarded vegetables, leftover table scraps and so on, into those washouts or do you have a burial pit? A Well, we' ve got some kind of a burial pit. Q Does your wife have a disposal in the kitchen sink? A No, we haven ' t . Q You indicated before that there was a corner site that had some value. Which corner site are you talking about? A Well, right there where the four corners meet, you know, where it just goes up to the dump. This does down to where my son lives -- Q No. No. Mr. Burger, the little black box here is what you are putting words into, not making marks into the table. That doesn ' t help any. You have got to describe by words. A Well, on Highway 52, right on the corner where you turn off up to the dump. Q On the northwest corner of that intersection? A Yes, north -- it ' s the south -- Q It ' s the northwest corner of the intersection, isn ' t it? A Yes. Well, no, north would be up, it ' s the south -- Q You ' re on the north side of the road? A Yes. Q All right. This particular corner is the northwest corner of the intersection formed by Highway 52? -66- A Yes, that ' s right. You ' re right. Q And the county road that goes by the dump. A You ' re right. Q All right. Have you had any offers for the use of that land? A Yes, I ' ve had quite a few offers on it. Q What have been the proposed uses of that particular corner site? A Well, the thousand dollars an acre. Q No. The uses? A Oh, for useful building? Q Yes. What kind of building? A House, houses. Q Residential? A Residential. Q About how many acres do you have in that corner? A Three acres. (,? Will that corner site be impaired for residential use if the Board grants this permit? A It will. MR. PEHR: I have no further questions. RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: : Q Mr. Burger, when did you receive these offers? -67- A Oh, in the past years, past year. I think the last was here about three, four months ago. I haven ' t been interested in selling it. Q You don ' t even want to sell it, do you? A Not at the time. Q Do you want to now? A No. I haven ' t decided to sell it yet. I was ,just waiting. It ain ' t going to devaluate. The value ' s going to increase. I ve had business people approach me for it and I just don ' t want anything there that I won ' t approve of. I wouldn ' t have anybody just build anything there. I want something there with looks halfway to meet the specifications that I want, not a trailer or a little house or something like that. MR. MARRANZINO: I see. I have nothing further. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q What ' s the approximate value of your home, the approximate present value? A About thirty-five thousand I suppose. MR. PEHR: I have nothing else. MR. MARRANZINO: That ' s all. (Witness excused. ) -68- MR. PEHR: Mr. Dechant. ALVIN DECHANT Called as a witness by the Protestants, being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q Would you please state your name and your address? A Alvin Dechant. Address is Route 1, Box 214, Fort Lupton, Colorado. Q And you were here the last meeting we had of this matter? A Yes. Q And you heard the testimony of Mr. Norden? A Yes. Q And are you acquainted with the location of the sanitary land fill site that he proposes to use as a dump? A Yes. Q Now do you farm land adjacent to that and if so, describe to the County Commissioners where your lands are? A Well, the land that I farm, where this sanitary land fill or dump is what I call it, is right on the side of the land I farm. Q Well, what direction is it from the dump, to the east? A It ' s about 30 feet north is my land of the dump. Q Thirty feet north of the dump? -69- A Right. Q Does it also extend to the east of the dump? A Yes. Q About how far? A About quarter mile down the hill. Q Does it also touch or adjoin the lands to the south? A Also to the south, yes. Q Now you have land that you farm and use as a farmstead from the dump site to the county road -- what do you call that? A Just the county road, three miles north of Fort Lupton. Q Well, the first county road north of Fort Lupton. A Well, two miles west on that road, yes. Q Two miles west. Now do you own the land at the first highway west of Fort Lupton and Highway 52? A Yes, I do. Q And would that be the northeast corner? A It would be the northwest corner. You ' re talking about across the road, okay. Q That would be the northeast corner of the intersection formed by the first county road west of Fort Lupton and Highway 52? A Right. Q How far is that land from the land upon which Mr. Norden proposes to construct his sanitary land fill? -70- A Well, that would be about, if you cattycorner across the field, it would be half a mile. If you follow the road, it would be about a mile. So which way does the wind blow? Wind don ' t take longcuts. It takes all shortcuts. Q How long have you farmed in that area? A For the last 15 years. Q Are you acquainted with the direction of the wind in that area? A You bet. Q Where do the prevailing winds usually come from? A From the north and west. Q Now if the Board grants the certificate for the operation of a sanitary land fill, will that have any impact upon the value of your land that you own at the intersection of the first highway west of Fort Lupton and Highway 52? A Yes, I think it would. Q Now is it a fair statement to say that the land upon which the sanitary land fill is proposed is the second highway, north and south, west of Fort Lupton? A Yes, it would be the second one. Q And those two highways are one mile apart? A Yes. Correct. Q Would this land fill also have some impact upon the land farmed by you to the north, east and south? A To the east it would, more so than to the south. -71- Q Now can you tell the Commissioners what the impact would be upon the lands farmed by you to the east, north and south, and also state separately what the impact would be to the land at the northeast corner of the intersection of Highway 52 and the first highway, first county road west of Fort Lupton? A Well, first of all, east of me is where the land fill is going to be or supposed to be. I live about a quarter of a mile east. And how in the world he ' s ever going to keep them papers in there when the wind blows and keep them out of the irrigation trails and out of the back trails for my dairy is beyond me. That ' s the main reason I 'm against that part. And second of all, why you want to have a land fill on top of the hill, dig a hole and then fill it up and cover it is stupid, plain stupid. Find a hole and fill it and then cover it and then we ' ve accomplished something. But why dig a hole and then fill it up again? Q Are there two irrigation canals right adjacent to this proposed sanitary land fill? A Yes, there is. Q And that ' s what? A The Brantner Ditch and the Brighton Ditch. Q There is also the Stanley? A Stanley Ditch, yes. -72- A There are three of them there? A Three of them, right. Q Would they be affected if any debris flew out of this proposed land fill? A They would. Q How would it affect those ditches? A Well, it would get in the water and then plug up your irrigation system, your syphen tubes and one thing after another. Q Are many of the laterals that lead from the Brantner Ditch underground ditches? A There are some. Q Would those waste materials that would blow out -- MR. MARRANZINO: I 'm going to object to this, this is all speculative. We haven' t any basis in fact. MR. TELEP• Bill, it seems like you ' re doing all the testifying. MR. PEHR: I 'm asking him the questions. MR. MARRANZINO: Whether he' s testifying or not, it ' s pure speculation on his part, whether it be on Mr. Pehr ' s part or Mr. Dechant. MR. PEHR: I think he' s a layman and laymen can render an opinion as to what the effect of papers and debris would be. MR. TELEP: Narrow it down, will you, Bill. Joe will -73- give you all the latitude he possibly can. But narrow it down to what ' s germane and relevant here. MR. PEHR: We think our irrigation waters and use of irrigation ditches are germane. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: You are only guessing what might happen. You are not stating facts. THE WITNESS: I 'm not guessing, Mister, I know. MR. TELEP: We don ' t want to get in an argument. THE WITNESS: I ' m not guessing. This is honest-to- God fact. Q (By Mr. Pehr) Do you have an opinion as to what would happen to the underground irrigation laterals if waste papers and debris were allowed to blow from the sanitary land fill into the ditches? A Yes, I do. Q What would happen? A Plug them up, couldn ' t get no water through. Q Would that be expensive to clear those underground laterals? A Yes, if they were plugged at a certain place that you couldn ' t get to, you would have to dig them up. They would. Q Now you operate a dairy? A Yes, I do. Q And is your dairy inspected by the Health Department? A Yes, it is. Q What are some of the problems that would arise, in your -74- opinion, from the operation of the dump site that would affect your dairy? A Well, odor, papers, flies, I suppose rodents come down off of there which I suppose there would be some, and just, well, just no good out there on top of that hill. That ' s all. Q How would this land fill then impair the value of your lands that adjoin it? A Well, I believe it would affect it pretty bad, because I don' t think nobody would want to come out and buy a piece of land and live right close to a dump. Q Would it reduce the value of your land? A Yes, it would. MR. PEHR: I have no further questions of Mr. Dechant. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: Q Mr. Dechant, you are not against land fills as such, are you? A No, not if they ' re in the proper place. Q Yes. Now you said you could just find a hole and fill it, this would be okay; is that right? A Well, sure, make good sense to you. Q If you dig a hole and put it in there and have to cover it, somebody else has to go through that expense, it -75- doesn ' t make any difference, does it, if they handle it properly and cover it? A You said if. That little word if. Right there' s the joker. Q You have done a lot of speculating too. I 'm asking you if it was done properly, we must assume and we have more right to assume that this will be done properly than some of your assumptions you have made, then it would be all right? A If it was done properly. Q Yes. A Let me ask you a question. Q You don' t ask me anything. A Then I ' ll tell you one before it ' s over with. Q All right. Now you have been there 15 years; is this correct? A Correct . Q And you lease this land that you ' re talking about that ' s adjacent to this proposed sanitary land fill; isn' t that right? A The one that is within 30 feet of it. Q Who it the owner of that land? A Robert G. Burch. Q Have you talked to him about this? A You betcha. -76- Q Is he here? A He ' s not here. But he gave me the okay. Q You are his spokesman. Now on this particular property which is immediately south of this proposed land fill, there is a big cavity; isn ' t that true? A Yes, there is. Q And isn ' t it true that you dump all of your trash and rubbish in there? A You betcha. Q You betcha. A I ' ll tell you why. Q I 'm just asking you. You have done this for 15 years, haven ' t you? A No, sir. Q How long? A For about the last three years, because it used to be a pit silo and I abandoned it and I 'm covering it up with with my own trash. If these other people want to dump, they can dig a hole and dump it in their own back yard. Q You don ' t care about your neighbors? A They don ' t care about me. Q They don ' t care about you? A No, sir. Q So you do it regardless, and you haven ' t applied for any permit, have you? -77- A I don ' t need one. Q You don ' t need one? A No, sir. MR. NORDEN: I don' t need one. THE WITNESS: Maybe not. That ' s what we ' re trying to prove, Mr. Norden. Q Do you dump paper in there? A Yes, I do. Q Now how do you prevent these prevailing winds that you are talking about that blow there all the time from blowing these papers into the ditches and clogging up the systems around there and so forth, how do you prevent that? A I ' ll tell you the truth. When I dump up there, I go up and put a match to them and burn it. I avoid it. Q And this match will cause any papers that happen to be around there from blowing? A They will burn. Q They will burn? A You betcha they ' ll burn. I make sure of that. Q Now in Mr. Norden ' s case it ' s different, you know that papers are going to fly all around the area, don' t you? A Well, sure they will. Q But they don ' t with you? A He' s not allowed to burn them, that ' s why. Q I see. But you can strike a match to these papers and -78- they won ' t fly away by these winds? A They can ' t fly away. Ashes don ' t hurt nothing. Q How do you hold the paper down when you 're lighting it, do you have your foot on it? A You have got some paper and a match and I ' ll show you how I do it. Q But nonetheless, you have used this for a dump. A You betcha. Q You haven ' t got a permit? A Tell me why I need one. Q I 'm not telling you. I 'm asking you. A Well, ask me why I need one. Q You have had a little trouble with the Health Department there on your dairy, haven ' t you? A No, sir. Q You haven ' t? A No, sir. Q You ' re sure of that? A Positive. You can check the records on that. Q All right. And isn ' t this underground system that you ' re talking about about two miles south of this proposed location, that ' s going to get all clogged up with all this paper that flies from this land? A No. I 'm talking about right straight east and a little bit north. -79- Q Straight east and north? A Right. Q It ' s about two miles, isn ' t it? A No, sir. Q How far is it? A Well, it ' s within a quarter of a mile. Q That ' s it, within a quarter of a mile? A Yes. It ' s right on 52. Q It ' s on 52 where that first highway west of Fort Lupton is, isn ' t it? A No. It ' s right there where the Brantner Ditch is, mile and a half west of Fort Lupton. Q Isn ' t it very close to the property that you own yourself that you just recently purchased from Mr. Burch? A No. No, it isn ' t. Q Where is it in relation to that? A It ' s halfway between. Q Between your property and -- A No. No, it ' s where the Brantner Ditch is, where the Brantner -- there is an underground line that goes all the way down, along 52. In fact, there is two or three of them in there, on each side of the highway. Q But you now don ' t know for sure whether or not this would have any effect on the value of your land, do you? You just speculate and you think it would. -Sp_ A I believe it would. Q You ' re not sure? A No. MR. MARRANZINO: I have nothing further. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: O Do you dump this paper during periods of high winds? A No, sir. • IF your abandoned pit silo a public dump? A No, sir. . MR. PEHR: That ' s all I have. MR. MARRANZINO: Nothing further. (Witness excused. ) FRANK SUCKLA Called as a witness by the Protestants, being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: • Would you please state your name and your address? A Frank Suckla, Route 1, Box 391, Fort Lupton. Q You have heard the testimony of Mr. Norden prior to today? A Yes. Q You were present at the last hearing? -81- A Yes. Q Are you acquainted with the location of his proposed land fill operation? A Yes. It ' s ,just directly cattycorner from my land. Q Which direction is your land from his? A To the southwest, just across the road. Q How much land do you own there? A Five hundred sixty acres. Q Now to get to your land, to get to your land from Highway 52, would you have to pass the dump site? A Yes. Q Is Highway 52 the main artery between Interstate 25 and U. S. Highway 85? A Yes. Q Is there any other common access to your land, paved roads, than Highway 52? A Well, we have to cross Highway 52. We can come into our land from the west, a mile west, or we can come in from the east. Q That's all from Highway 52? A But it ' s half a mile off of Highway 52. Q Now what prospective plans do you have for your lands? A Well, we have most of it is dry land. We have some irrigated land, but most of it is dry land, and we have a high ridge running from the northeast clear to the -82- southwest. Q The northeast point -- A The northeast point is right across from the dump, and -- Q What use did you have planned for this site? A Well, it would be ideal building sites sometime in the future. Q Now to carry out -- did you propose or plan to divide this into any residential sites? A No. We don ' t plan on dividing ours, although we have run a water line up to the top of the hill several years ago, planning on building a home there. Q Are you also purchasing water taps? A Yes, we have water taps there on our land. Q Now how many water taps have you purchased over the years? A Well, we just have two now. Q Have you contracted for any additional taps? A No. Q Now what is the highest and best use of your land, this high ridge that you say lies kitty-corner from this pro- posed dump site? A Well, right now of course we' re farming it dry, and I think the time is coming when it will be ideal for building. We have terraced our land and the terraces run on a contour and we ' re producing wonderful crops there right now. Q Is the highest and best use then residential or agriculture? -83- A Well, right now it ' s used for agriculture. But I think the time is coming when it will be residential. Q Now this land that Mr. Norden acquired kitty-corner from you, would that land be suitable for residential use? A Yes. Q Are there any water lines that would service this site? A Not right now. Q Well, is there water available to it? A I think there is always water available, but sometimes it takes a little money and effort to get it. Q Well, can he get it from the same source that you get your water from? A Well, I 'm not sure about that. Q Would this dump site have any effect upon your land? A Yes. Q How would it affect your land? A Well, in the first place there would be a lot of traffic going up that road, which is a steep, narrow, slick road when it ' s wet. And we use the road a lot to go to and from our home, to the farm, and we think the traffic would impair it. Q How would the dump site impair the value of your land, not the traffic? A Yes, I think the dump site -- Q How would it impair your land? -84- A Well, I think it would reduce the value. I don ' t think anyone would be interested in the property if there were a dump right next door. Q Do you have an opinion as to what the reduction in value might be of your land if the dump site were granted? A Well, that ' s hard to say. As you know, as agriculture land land is probably worth what it will produce, in the neighborhood of maybe sixty to a hundred dollars an acre. But if it could be sold for residential it would be probably worth five, six hundred dollars an acre. Q Well, what is the land worth now? A Oh -- Q Before the dump site was started. A I ' ve had inquiries, I ' ve had an offer of $250. 00 an acre for the whole farm. Q Now if this dump permit was granted, do you have an opinion as to what the value of your land would be? A Well, it would be -- it would be worth only strictly for agriculture, in the neighborhood of a hundred dollars an acre. But that would be about a three hundred per cent loss. Q Do you have any other reasons why you ' re opposed to this permit? A Yes. Q What are they? -85- A Well, in the first place I didn ' t like the way it was handled. I didn ' t think Norden should have the authority to locate the dump on his own. I feel that the site should have been located by the County Commissioners and the people in the area be notified as to what was going on. Q Have you finished? A Yes. Well, there is just one thing I wanted to make a statement on, as to when we first heard of the dump site. Jack Burger and I came down to the County Commissioners, and this would probably be roughly what Jack said, we had to show them on the map where the dump was. They didn ' t know where it was. And they had agreed that they would come out and take a look at it at the site. So when they came out at the site, Mr. Marsh Anderson stated that they tentatively approved that site on that Wednesday when we were in the office. And at that time Mr. Burger and Mr. Anderson got into some pretty hot words and I don ' t think it was very decent language that was throwed around there. And we just don ' t like to be pushed around that way. MR. TELEP: Bill, I think we' re going off a little bit. Mr. Suckla, in all fairness to all concerned, we ' re trying to ascertain whether this is a desirable site or not, bared on many factors, and when the Commissioners make a decision it ' s absolutely discretionary on their ---S6--- part to do that. And so we don ' t like to get involved in anything personal, what happened, how it happened, and if anything did happen is most unfortunate of course. But we like to stick to the things at hand here, B` 11, ar to why th ' s rite should or should not be allowed. MR. PEHR: I wasn ' t following the testimony momen- tarily. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Well, he strayed quite a bit. O (By Mr. Pehr) Do you have anything else you want to state why the permit should not be granted? A Well, I think a better location could be found that would be more desirable to the people on the southern end of Weld County. Fort Lupton locations can be located east of Fort Lupton and Frederick, Dacono and Firestone, their location I think would be more desirable with less con- troversy. MR. PEHR: I have no further questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: Q You ' re suggesting then, Mr. Suckla, that if a proposed land fill site was closer to Fort Lupton that that would be more desirable? A No. Q Where are you suggesting? -87- A There are lands east of Fort Lupton that I think could be located for dumps, which would be in a more sparsely settled area. Q Sparsely settled area. Is your area heavily populated? A No. Q And you think if these dumps were located in an area east of Fort Lupton that this would have any effect on the value of the land east of Fort Lupton? A Well, most of that land is -- a lot of that land is still in sage brush. Q Somebody obviously owns this land? A Right. Q And some day it may be potentially good residential property too? MR. PEHR: I wonder if we aren' t getting just as far afield. Mr. MARRANZINO: No. I think this is very germane. MR. TELEP: He was talking about how it would affect his land and so forth. I think it ' s proper cross- examination, Bill, very proper. Q (By Mr. Marranzino) Don ' t you think it would have an effect on the value of this land if it was going to be used for residential sites? A A dump will affect any property anyplace. Q But yet you think if it were located east of Fort Lupton -88- it will not affect you but it might affect someone else, correct? Just answer the question. A I didn ' t quite get your question. Q Do you think that if the land, the site -- are you going to coach him? MR. TELEP: Mr. Pehr -- THE WITNESS: Go ahead with your question. MR. TELEP: Mr. Marranzino is correct, I think the witness should answer the questions that are propounded to him personally without any coaching, please. MR. PEHR: Well, I haven ' t said anything to him. MR. TELEP: I know. But you have on other occasions. MR. PEHR: I haven ' t on other occasions either. Q (By Mr. Marranzino) I ' ll ask you the question again if I can remember it. Do you think then that as long as this land is on someone else ' s property east of Fort Lupton, regardless of whether it depreciates the value of that land, it ' s all right as far as you ' re concerned; is that correct? A Yes. Q Because you don ' t want your property devalued? A Right. Q And that ' s the only reason, isn ' t that true, Mr. Suckla? A No. Q What other reason can you give? -89- A I stated my reasons, it ' s on the record. Q Well, why, tell us again why the dump east of Fort Lupton would be better? A The reason I 'm opposed to it, not so much because of a dump, it ' s the way it was handled. Q That ' s exactly it. Just the way it was handled. If you had been told about it before? A That ' s right. And if that dump -- MR. MARRANZINO: I have nothing further. THE WITNESS: If that dump was put on Norden ' s property I wouldn ' t object to it. MR. MARRANZINO: I have nother further. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q One of your primary reasons, however, is that it will reduce the value of your land? A Right . MR. PEHR: I have nothing else. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: I ' d like to ask a couple questions so we can clarify probably the possibility of how soon your land might be developed so that we have an idea that we know approximately how long the sanitary land fill might last in that area. Do you have any idea of how soon you might start developing housing in that area? -90- THE WITNESS: No, I don ' t have any idea. But it might hinder a sale, maybe somebody else will develop the land, but it might hinder a sale of this land to somebody that would be interested in developing it. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: And you said you had two water taps now. Do you have other water that will be avail- able for the area so that it could be developed? I mean, this is a major thing. THE WITNESS: Yes. There is other water available. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Is that the Central Well Water District? THE WITNESS: Central Wells and we have Whitney water too, and then we have another source of water also. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: I have no other questions. (Witness excused. ) FRANK VOGL Called as a witness by the Protestants, being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q Would you please state your name and your address? A Frank Vogl, Route 1, Box 216, Fort Lupton. Q Where do you live with respect to Mr. Norden ' s dump site? A Well, I 'm about -- about three-quarters of a mile I suppose -91- from one end of it there across the road to the north, three-quarters of a mile east. Q Three-quarters of a mile east as the road goes or the crow flies? A Well, as the road goes, yes. Q All right. How far -- A That is the north end of the property, I think, is about three-quarters of a mile. Got 40 some acres there. Q You have heard Mr. Norden testify how he would operate the -- A Yes. Q -- sanitary land fill, what he wants to do with it? A Yes. Q Do you have an opinion as to whether or not this would devalue your land? A Well, I think it would. I know from other places, I ' m acquainted around Longmont there where they have a dump and everybody there seems to be dissatisfied with it in there and they want to get it out too, if they put it over them. That ' s one reason I objected. And I feel just like Mr. Dechant does here, the way things was handled. I think that 's a whole lot the way it goes. Just after it ' s got in there people don ' t like it. There is one out atLongmont on Highway 119, I think it is, and the people who haul their stuff out there on the trucks, -92- and it ' s scattered all over the road they claim. It flies off the trucks and everybody that ' s around there just kicks and grumbles about it, the way it ' s handled. It ' s supposed to be sanitary too, but it ' s not handled that way. Everybody would like to get them out of there too. I think that ' s what ' s the matter with a whole lot of us here, they know the way others are run and they' re not run right, and that ' s why we 're making this complaint. Q You are the first person I head mention the fact that debris blows or falls off trucks hauling trash to the dump site. A Yes. Q Based upon your investigation did you arrive at an opinion as to whether or not this might be a real problem in that particular locality? A Well, I thought it would be on Highway 52 there. We come in there both ways there, along that two-mile road that Mr. Dechant talks about. And that ' s anotherthing, there is just a lot of stuff that is dumped there now at times. And they tell me over around Longmont that same thing happens there, they will come along, the dump is closed, and people come along even at night and will throw their stuff alongside of the road somewhere. That ' s what happens there, and that ' s what I 'm basing my complaint on, what happens at other dumps. -93- MR. PEHR: I have no further questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: Q Mr. Vogl, I believe you are of the opinion, are you not, that if this land fill was operated properly it would be okay; isn ' t that true? A Well, I never seen one dump that was run right here. Q All right. Now you ' re talking about what you have seen in other places. Now when Mr. Pehr said your investi- gation, you actually didn ' t go up to make an investigation, did you; just because you happened to be somewhat acquainted with the area? A I 'm acquainted with the area. I have relation living right in there with that and friends that are around some of these dumps, and they' re not run sanitary. Q So you ' re basing it upon hearsay, what someone else told you? A Well, I have seen it too. I have been along that road. Q Let me ask the question once more. You would not be against the sanitary land fill if it was run properly? A Well, I ' d like to see one of them that is run properly. Q You ' re not answering my question, Mr. Vogl. You just answer the question now, Mr. Vogl. I 'm just asking you if it were run properly; I 'm saying if it were run properly? -94- A There is that little word if in there. That could have something to do with it, Q That ' s all we can do. You ' re speculating on what will happen. I 'm saying if it was run properly you would have no objection, isn ' t that true, if there wasn ' t paper flying all over and if it was properly covered as the requirements of the State law and the State Department of Health sets forth, you would have no objection to it, would you? A Well, there is two ways of looking at it I think. Q All right. What are the two ways of looking at it? A Well, it ' s -- nobody likes it. I never seen anybody yet that liked it where there was a dump around. Q Are you acquainted -- A They ' re all saying here that it devaluates the land. Q You are not sure of that, are you? A I think it will. I think it will devaluate the land. Like I say, I never seen one that was run right. Q Are you acquainted with the State law with respect to how these are operated? A No, I 'm not. I don ' t know what the laws are. Q So you really don ' t know? A No. But I wonder why the other dumps aren ' t run that way. Q That isn ' t involved here. We' ve got to presume if a permit is granted that it would be done properly because -95- it will be policed by the County and by the State Health Department. A I wonder why the others aren' t run right. Q Don ' t you think this would be the time to complain, if Mr. Norden was not running it properly, that you might complain that there is debris and paper flying all over; don ' t you? A No. Q I mean you are pre-judging this, aren ' t you? A Yes, I 'm judging the way it -- by the way others are run. Q By what happens somewhere else? A Yes. And they ' re supposed to be under the law too, supposed to be under the law. MR. MARRANZINO: I have nothing further. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q You are testifying from your experience -- A Yes. Q -- as to how other dumps ar run; is that right? A Yes. MR. PEHR: I have no other questions. -96- RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: Q How many of these dumps have you actually seen? A Well, I seen the one there at Longmont and then there is another one -- Q When was this? A Well, I ' ve been over therein the last six weeks or so. Q You went by this dump-- A Yes. Q -- specifically to check it? A Yes. Q Did you find whether or not there was a permit issued for that? A Well, I never looked into that. But I sure don ' t like the way it was handled there anyhow. Q Because other people come and dump their stuff there with- out any supervision; is that right? A Well, that ' s it I guess. Q How many other dumps have you seen? A Well, there is one up west of Brighton they tell me is a fright too. Q They tell you. You didn ' t see it yourself? A Yes, I did. I ' ve been by there some years ago. Q Some years ago. How long ago? A Well, I don ' t know. I guess it ' s been a year or so ago. I don ' t know. -97- Q How many others? A Well, that ' s the only two. MR. MARRANZINO: Those are the only two. I have nothing further. MR. PEHR: That ' s all, Mr. Vogl. HAROLD ANDERSON: Just a minute, I have a question. You referred to papers being scatterd along the road. THE WITNESS: Yes. HAROLD ANDERSON: Okay. You can ' t expect the operator of the dump to go out and pick the papers up, nor can you expect him to cover the truck to keep the papers from blowing. THE WITNESS: No. HAROLD ANDERSON: If you take the ordinary trash haulers, the trucks, they ' re coverd, certainly there is nothing that blows out of that. THE WITNESS: There is a lot of them though that hauled and they don ' t cover it. And that also applies right in there. And like I say, if there is any amount of them that will haul stuff even at night or after hours and maybe the dump ' s closed and they will dump it along- side the road. HAROLD ANDERSON: Yes, we find it all over. But -- THE WITNESS: Right along my highway there. I know there is people that come along there and they will dump -98- trash there on that highway at night. HAROLD ANDERSON: Yes, sir. THE WITNESS: They will do it at any time. And with this dump in here, I got the opinion there will be a lot more of it done, because some people, maybe they only got a bushel basket full or something, they' re not going to pay for that. They ' re going to dump it along the road if they can ' t get in there. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: I really don ' t think this pertains to the sanitary land fill that we ' re debating here this evening. We really don ' t have any control over persons hauling trash or anything else on the highways. MR. PEHR: The point Mr. Anderson made, and I think it 's very good, is that it does happen and it attracts every person who is going to dump to that area. As they drive to that area, it ' s going to scatter and distribute all the debris. We' re living there. No one else is. That ' s how it ' s going to affect us, maybe a secondary effect, but it ' s not a primary effect, but certainly it should be considered. MR. MARRANZINO: Mr. Chairman, may I say something? I don ' t know how many more witnesses Mr. Pehr has, but I would say for the purpose of conserving time, if there is testimony that is going to be redundant as it has been, talking about speculation and so forth, and we know -99- everyone of them is going to testify to the effect on their land and so forth, I think we have heard enough of this. If it ' s going to be the same it ' s just cumu- lative and of no effect and I would ask Mr. Pehr if there is this testimony we would stipulate that their testimony is going to be almost verbatim of what we ' ve heard for the past evening and the previous afternoon that we were here. MR. PEHR: I have one more landowner who will testify. The others ' testimony would be the same, it would be cumulative. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: We will allow the one more. DORIS R. ACKERSON Called as a witness by the Protestants, being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q Would you state your name and your address? A Doris R. Ackerson, Route 1, Box 211, Fort Lupton. Q And where do you live with respect to Mr. Norden ' s dump site that he proposes to operate? A My house is two miles west and one mile south of Fort Lupton. My house will be approximately three-quarters, about a half mile from the dump site. -100- Q Where is your land? A My land adjoins that corner. Q Adjoins Mr. Norden ' s dump site? A Yes. Q How many acres do you own in there approximately? A I own 160 acres there. I mean, I control 160 acres there. All together I have 610 acres. Q Now how long have you lived in that area? A Thirty-five years. Q You heard testimony that the winds are from the west, northwest and north? A Yes, sir. Q Is that a true statement? A Yes, sir. We have a lot of little whirlywinds there, and they can come up just anytime without warning, the wind doesn ' t have to be blowing. Q Now you have an opinion, do you, as to what the impact would be upon your land that adjoins this proposed dump site? A I think that my land would be devalued. It is now under irrigation, with my main irrigation ditch coming right beside the dump site for approximately a fourth of a mile. That ' s my main ditch. I would probably not be able to irrigate with tubes, the ditch would be full of trash and I think my land would revert back to dry land. It is -101- now irrigated, worth approximately between three and four hundred dollars an acre. Q What would it be worth if it was dry land? A About one hundred fifty, maybe two hundred. Q Now your land that lies closest to the dump site is now used for alfalfa and grain? A I have alfalfa, corn and beets. Q Would it make the harvesting of the alfalfa more difficult if papers were scattered throughout the fields? A Yes. It would raise the expense because that ' s hard on your machinery. Q Would it devalue the crop? A I 'm sure it would. No dairy man appreciates buying hay that is full of trash and plastic and other debris. Q Do you sell your hay to dairy people? A I sell about half of my hay to dairy, about half of my hay I feed to my own cattle. A Do you have any other reason why you object to this sani- tary land fill? A The same as all the rest of them, I don ' t want it in my back yard. I think that a site could be arrived at where there are no -- where there are no inhabitants living within the immediate area. My road is the road that I live on, it 's an oil road, very highly traveled. There have been numerous counters, traffic counters on the road. -102- It 's a very highly traveled road, and you can see the dump site from my home from that road. You can also see the dump site from Highway 52, if you know where to look, when it ' s been used a while you will be able to see it. MR. PEHR: I have no further questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: Q Mrs. Ackerson, this proposed site doesn ' t actually adjoin your land does it? In other words, it ' s actually northwest of the northwest corner of your land. A The corners adjoin just as I said. Q The corners of the land adjoin, but not where the proposed site is; isn ' t that true? A Isn ' t that on the same piece of property? Q Well, it ' s on a piece of property there, but it does not adjoin your particular land. You ' re not really familiar where the site would be, are you? A Oh, yes I am. Q You are. And you think it ' s right adjoining to your land? A I told you the corners join. Q All right. And again you are like the others, that you figure that if a sanitary land fill is placed there that there will be paper and debris scattered around, it ' s going to clog up your tubes and so forth where you won ' t irrigate -103- properly? A I 'm sure it will. Q This is speculation. A No, it is not speculation. You can see it anyplace you look. Q Around there? A Not around there. Around any dump, any highway where they haul trash, see the papers flying around. Q How many have you seen? A I don ' t go around inspecting dumps. As I drive along a road, if you ' re in the proximity of a dump or trash-hauling trucks, it would look the same on our road as it does on any other road. There is no reason why it wouldn ' t. Q You have been there 35 years? A Yes, sir. Q Where have you dumped your trash? A I use my own ground. Q You use your own ground? A Yes. Q Do you use any sanitary means of covering it and so forth? A No, sir. MR. MARRANZINO: Nothing further. THE WITNESS: I feed my garbage to my hogs. MR. MARRANZINO: Nothing further. -104- REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q You have farmed for how many years? A Thirty-five years. Q Are you acquainted with how you irrigate with syphen tubes? A Yes, sir. A Have you in your experience seen tubes clogged by papers and so on? A Yes, sir. Q If more papers were to -- or pieces of plastic were to blow from the dump site, would that increase the diffi- culties of irrigation? A Yes, sir. Even chicken feathers will plug up irrigation syphen tubes. MR. PEHR: That ' s all I have. MR. MARRANZINO: Nothing further. Thank you. (Witness excused. ) MR. PEHR: All right. We have Mr. Burger, Junior, who is present, Shorty Luft; they would all testify to the same thing, if you want to stipulate to that, Mr. Marranzino. MR. MARRANZINO: Are they all landowners? MR. PEHR: Yes. Mr. Luft has his farm on the north side of Highway 52, about an eighth of a mile due north of the dump site. And Mr. Burger, Junior, would be the second -105- 160, would be half a mile north of Highway 52 on the second county road. MR. MARRANZINO: This is land that his father owns; is that correct? MR. PEHR: I don ' t know who owns it, but he farms it. MR. MARRANZINO: We ' ll stipulate to their testimony being the same. MR. TELEP: Those three that you mentioned, okay. MR. PEHR: I think there were two. MR. TELEP: Are you done? MR. PEHR: Yes. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Do you have anything else? MR. MARRANZINO: Yes. Mr. Chairman, if you please, I would like to call three witnesses for very brief testimony. First I would like to call Mr. Busch. MEL BUSCH Called as a witness on behalf of the Applicant, being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: Q Would you please state your name and your address? A Mel Busch, 930 McKinley, Fort Lupton, Colorado. Q What is your occupation? A City Administrator. Q You are on the Board of Trustees as City Administrator; is -106- that correct? A No, not on the Board of Trustees. Q Oh, you are not on the Board of Trustees. Now, Mr. Busch, have you had an opportunity to bring up this problem of a sanitary land fill, particularly the one in question, with the Board of Trustees? A Well, yes -- MR. PEHR: Just a minute. Just answer yes or no so I can make an objection to the next question. A Yes. Q All right. Mr. Busch, I will hand you what has been marked Applicant ' s Exhibit B and ask you if you can identify that? A Yes. Q What is it, please, without reading it? A It ' s an Affidavit from the Board of Trustees of the Town of Fort Lupton. Q I see. Do you recognize the signatures of those persons on that Affidavit? A Yes, I do. Q And are those the signatures of the persons whose names appear there? No one else signed for them? A No. MR. PEHR: With respect to Exhibit B, Mr. Busch, was -107- this action taken by the Board of Trustees at a town meeting? THE WITNESS: No, sir. MR. PEHR: I 'm going to object because it does not respresent the action of the Board of Trustees. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: We will accept it for what it ' s worth. MR. MARRANZINO: Thank you. No further questions. You may examine. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q Is it true, Mr. Busch, that the Board of Trustees acts by motion or resolution? A In their meetings, yes, sir. Q Yes. Is that correct? A Yes. Q And upon motion duly made and seconded by members of the Board of Trustees the matter is then put to a vote and the Trustees then vote upon the motion? A Yes, sir. Q And that 's how the Board votes? A Yes, sir. Q And this action represented by Exhibit B was not taken in that manner? -108- A This is an affidavit. Q Well, the action taken, the action purportedly taken, by Exhibit B was not done at a Board meeting upon vote and motion and so on? A No, sir. MR. PEHR: Thank you. That ' s all I have. MR. MARRANZINO: Nothing further, Mr. Busch. Thank you. (Witness excused. ) MR. MARRANZINO: I would like to call Mayor Corbett. STEWART CORBETT Recalled as a witness on behalf of the Applicant, being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: Q Would you please state your name and address for the record? A My name is Stewart Corbett. Address, 1052 Park Avenue, Fort Lupton. Q And you are the Mayor of Fort Lupton; is that correct? A Yes. Q Mr. Corbett, do you recall the hearing we had here before? A Yes. Q You were present? A Yes. -109- Q And I believe you were asked if it wasn ' t true that the Fort Lupton Planning Commission was against this proposed site. A I wasn ' t asked the question. The statement was made. Q The statement was made? A The statement was made. Q And do you know whether or not this statement was made to you as a correct or incorrect statement? A At the time the statement was made, I did not know. Q And have you subsequently determined whether it was correct or incorrect? A Yes. Mind if I explain it? Q I would appreciate it if you would. A At the time the statement was made we had just changed certain members of the Planning Commission. The Chairman -- let me go a step further. The previous planning commission was in existence at the time that this dump site proposal was brought up, it consisted of five members. Between the time that this was started and the time of the hearing one member, the chairman, resigned and two members had their term expire. So, in effect, we were talking about two different commissions. Q I see. A And so I can only speak for the commission as it now exists. -110- Q All right. Mayor, I 'm going to hand you what has been marked as Applicant ' s Exhibit C and ask if you can identify that? A Yes. Q And what is it? A What is this? Q Yes. A It is an Affidavit certifying that the members of the Planning Commission or the members here are not opposed to the proposed dump site under discussion at this hearing. The two members that have not signed were not available for signature, but were contacted by the Chairman by telephone and their signatures can be -- MR. PEHR: I 'm going to object. That ' s pure hearsay. THE WITNESS: Well, this is fine. Q Are those signatures that appear on there the signatures of the other Planning Commissioners whose names appear there? A Yes. Q They are no one else ' s signatures? A No. Q You are positive no one else -- A I saw them sign. Q You saw them sign it yourself? A Yes. -111- MR. PEHR: Do you offer Exhibit C? MR. MARRANZINO: I want you to examine it and then I ' ll offer it. MR. PEHR: Well, offer it. May I voir dire? MR. MARRANZINO: Yes. EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q Now your signature appears on this Exhibit C; is that right? A I am now a member of that Commission. Q You are now a member of that Commission? A Yes. Q And Alice -- A Alvie. Q Alvie something. A Burch. Q Is on the Board of Trustees? A Yes. Q And on the Planning Commission? A Yes. Q The only non-member of the Board of Trustees whose name appears on here is a Ronald Ceretto? A He ' s the Chairman. Q Is that right? A That ' s right. -112- Q Are you the keeper of the minutes of the Planning Commission of Fort Lupton? A No, I 'm not. MR. MARRANZINO: I ' ll offer this into evidence. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Accepted. MR. PEHR: Just for the record, we do want to object to Exhibit C on the grounds that there is no testimony by an authorized person of the Planning Commission; there is no testimony that this was a record kept in the due course of business of the Planning Commission; there is no testimony that it is action taken by the Fort Lupton Planning Commission, even though it purports to recite itself in some form to be an affidavit because it ' s obvious from just a cursory examination that it is not in fact an affidavit but something -- well, it ' s a piece of paper really with a little bit of typing on it. That ' s precisely what it 's worth. MR. MARRANZINO: I might just comment on that. The Mayor has testified that these people are on the Planning Board, that these are their signatures, and I don ' t think we require anything else. And the Board here can give any weight to this affidavit that they think is proper. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: We will accept it. -113- DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued) Q (By Mr. Marranzino) Mr. Mayor, apparently it ' s your feeling at least and that of the Planning Commission that there is a need for such a thing in your area? MR. PEHR: I 'm going to object as to what the feeling of some person other than toy testifying here today. MR. MARRANZINO: Your people have been testifying what everyone else says all around the area and up in Longmont. MR. TELEP: Can you tie it up in the course of his investigation what his opinion is? Q Now you have looked into this matter, have you not? A Very definitely. Q And in your own personal opinion -- or do you have an opinion with respect to the land fill and proposed site here that Mr. Norden has? A All I can do is express my own opinion. Q This is what we want. What is that opinion? A My own opinion is that I see nothing wrong with it and it is desperately needed. Mr. MARRANZINO: Thank you. I have nothing further. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q Okay. You are the Mayor of Fort Lupton; is that right? -114- A Yes. Q And you are speaking today on behalf of all the merchants in Fort Lupton and the people that live there; is that what you ' re telling these people? A No. MR. MARRANZINO: He said it was his own opinion. MR. PEHR: He was called as the Mayor. I ' m not asking about his opinion. I want to conduct my examination. Q I 'm talking about you as the Mayor. You said you were the Mayor, weren ' t you? A Yes. Q Are you telling the people here now that we should have the dump site right in the middle of our area? A I don ' t care where it ' s put as long as we have a properly run dump site within a reasonable distance of Fort Lupton. Q Are you telling us that you' re speaking for the merchants of that town too? A For the merchants that I have spoken to, yes. Q What merchants are you speaking for, tell us about that, give us a name. I want their names. A Each one of the Board members is a merchant. Q All right. Tell me which one, by names, I can ' t tell by "each one of the Board members. " A Al Burch. Q What does he do? -115- A He ' s Fort Lupton Electric. Q Who else? A Jim Zimbelman, who is present at this hearing. He runs a gas station service. Q You ' re speaking for him, too? A Yes. Q And you 're telling these people here that Mr. Zimbelman and Mr. Burch want that dump as proposed by Mr. Norden? A Nobody said they wanted it where it ' s proposed. What I ' m saying is we have no objections to that site. D You have no objection to that site because you aren ' t being injured by it; is that it? A No matter where you put it, if you want to put it this way, somebody ' s going to get injured. This was brought up before. Q This isn ' t what I 'm asking you. If you bought land adjoining this dump site, wouldn ' t you be here objecting to it? A I don ' t know. I would have to be in that position. Q Therefore, you can ' t say whether or not people are going to be damaged that surround the area or not going to be damaged? A I firmly believe in my own mind that there will be no damage if it ' s run according to the specifications as given to us by the County Health Department. -116- Q Didn' t you just say you had to be in that position first? A How's that again? Q Didn ' t you just say you had to be in that position first before you could render an opinion? A Well, I suppose you would. Q What other merchants do you speak for tonight? A I speak for J. Lee Sears. Q J. Lee Sears, the realtor? A Realtor, who is in favor of this site. Q All right. And he doesn ' t caneif it goes in this particular space; is that right? A I won ' t say that. All I know is he has indicated to me that he has no objection to it. Q Who else? A I can speak for Ron Ceretto or Bob Ceretto, Bob' s Super Service Texaco Gas Station, they have indicated they have no objections. Q He doesn ' t care about the people in this area either; is that what you ' re telling us? A I didn ' t say that. Q He wants this sanitary land fill to go into this particular site? A He has no objections to this particular site. Q He has no objections to this site. Does he own land next to it, around it? -117- A Not that I know of. Q He' s got land how many miles away, four miles to the east? A You know where he lives. Q No, I want it in the record. A All right. He lives in Fort Lupton. Q That ' s four miles away, isn ' t it? A Three probably. I have never measured it, I don ' t know. Q Who else do you speak for? Tell us, we ' d like to know, Mr. Mayor. A The only other man offhand that I can think of right now is the proprietor of the Safeway Store, George Adams. Q The proprietor? A He ' s the manager I should say of the Safeway Store. Q And he has no objection? A No. Q What about the rest of the merchants in town, people that live there, do you speak for them also? A I wouldn ' t want to go down street by street and mention people, no, because I haven ' t contacted all those people. Q You are speaking for yourself and these few people -- A I 'm speaking for myself mainly and the Board and the Planning Commission and the few merchants that I spoke of, that 's right. Q Was the meeting of the Fort Lupton Planning Commission held when they adopted Exhibit C? -118- A No. Q This was done outside of some meeting; is that correct? A Yes. Q Who prepared it? A The Chairman. Q Ronald Ceretto? A Ronald Ceretto. Q Who prepared Exhibit B? A That ' s the one from the town Board. Q Yes. Who typed that one? A That was prepared by the City Administrator. Q At whose request were these exhibits prepared? A I requested the one from the town Board. Q Who requested the one from the Planning Commission? A I don ' t know as anybody actually did. We discussed this sometime ago and it was mentioned that the town was going to prepare one. I think the Chairman of the Planning Commission. Q The former Planning Commission did in fact go on record in opposition to the granting of this permit for Mr. Norden before the town Board changed it? A I can ' t speak for the former Planning Commission. Q You don ' t know? A I wasn' t on it. Q You don ' t know; is that it? -119- A I don ' t recall them bringing this to the Board' s attention, that they were opposed to it. Q Do you know what the former Planning Commission did with respect to Mr. Norden ' s application for a dump? A No. But I imagine it ' s in the record or the minutes. Q You don ' t know? A No. MR. PEHR: That ' s all I have. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: Q Mayor Corbett, apparently because of the fact that these affidavits have been signed by these people on the Planning Commission and the Board of Trustees, would you say that there is a need for a sanitary land fill in your particular area? A Yes. Q A definite need for it? A Yes. Q Have you had any experiences with land fills before? A Not with land fills. We ' ve had a very unfortunate experience with a dump that wasn' t maintained as a land fill. Q And in your opinion, if this land fill was properly maintained and in accordance with the State Department -120- of Health ' s rules and regulations and the State law per- taining thereto, that it would not be unsanitary or have any adverse effect on anyone in the area of this land fill? A No. I see no reason why it should be, if it ' s properly controlled. MR. MARRANZINO: Thank you. I have nothing further. MR. PEHR: I have nothing. (Witness excused. ) MR. MARRANZINO: I would like to call Mr. Brown as our last witness. GENE R. BROWN Called as a witness on behalf of the Applicant, being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: Q Would you please state your name and address for the record? A Gene R. Brown, 940 Fulton Avenue, Fort Lupton, Colorado. Q What is your occupation, Mr. Brown? A I 'm self-employed. I have a grocery store in Fort Lupton. Q Are you in any way attached to the Chamber of Commerce? A I am Vice President. Q Mr. Brown, I 'm handing you what has been marked as Appli- cant ' s Exhibit D and ask you if you can identify that? -121- A Yes, I can. Q What is it? A It ' s an Affidavit drawn by the Chamber of Commerce in regards to a dump site, sanitation disposal. Q There are a number of names that appear on this, what you call affidavit. Are you familiar with these people? A Yes, I am. Q And they are all on the Chamber of Commerce? A Yes, they are. Q And did you personally see them sign this? A Several of them I did, yes. Q Do you know of your own knowledge whether the signatures that appear thereon are the actual signatures of those persons who were on the Chamber of Commerce? A Yes, I do. LXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q Did you say this was an affidavit? A Yes. Q What ' s an affidavit? A Well, it ' s notarized, drawn -- the President of the Chamber of Commerce was out of town, at the time he was up in Canada. Q Well, it ' s not an affidavit then. -122- A It 's a drawn statement. Q It ' s a letter. A Yes. Q I can ' t read these names on here. A Mr. Grieve. Q Grieve. A John R. Grieve. Bob Easterday. Jim Tanner. Sheldon Lockman. Ron Ceretto. Herbert Purdy. Mel Busch. Myself, Gene Brown. Elton Nakamoto. Q Now did the Fort Lupton Chamber of Commerce hold a meeting? A Yes, they did. Their last meeting, it was brought, a newsletter was sent out to every member of the Chamber of Commerce informing them the Chamber had discussed this trash sanitation proposal. They all, those that were members -- Q The question is did they hold a meeting? A Not an official meeting, no. Q Did they hold a regular meeting? A Yes. Q At this regular meeting did they adopt this letter of June 30th, 1970? A No. That ' s been brought up since then. Q This is not an action of the Chamber of Commerce then? A Not at the present time, no, at that particular meeting. Q It ' s an action by nine people? -123- A Right. Q Who happen to be members of the Chamber of Commerce? A Right. Q But it ' s not an official action of the Chamber of Commerce ? A No. Q And of these nine people Mr. Busch, City Manager, already testified and Mr. Ceretto signed some other affidavits, purported affidavits. A Yes. O Mr. Easterday doesn ' t live in town? A Yes, he does. to has a business in town. He has Easterday Drugs. Q He has Easterday Drugs; is that right? A Yes, sir. O Is the Chamber of Commerce -- Let me put it this way: are these eight or nine people on this, who signed this letter, in favor of a permit issuing at the site that Mr. Norden has selected? A They are, if it ' s handled properly like Mr. Norden said it would be. I think it would be a very good thing for the City and for the community of Fort Lupton. Q Did you understand the question? A Would you repeat it. MR. PEHR: Would you repeat it, Mr. Reporter. (The last question was read. ) -124- A Yes. Q And you spoke to Mr. Nakamoto and he said yes? A Yes. Q And all of the rest of these people on here? A Yes. Mr. PEHR: Thank you very much. MR. MARRANZINO: We would offer Applicant ' s Exhibit D. MR. PEHR: No objection. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Accepted. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEPH MARRANZINO: Q Just a couple morequestions. I think you alluded to a meeting held before the Chamber, general meeting, and this was discussed? A Yes. And it ' s in the newsletter. Q And was it a consensus of opinion at that meeting? A Yes. Q Just as stated in this letter here? A Correct. Q Now just one more question, Mr. Brown. You weren' t asked by Mr. Norden to appear here; you appeared here voluntarily; isn ' t that true? A No. I haven ' t seen Mr. Norden. Q This is a voluntary appearance on your part? -125- A Yes, because I was asked by the -- the President of the Chamber of Commerce is in Canada, the Secretary was at a meeting in Denver, so I was asked to take it. Q So this is of some vital interest to the community? A Very much so. Mr. MARRANZINO: Nothing further. RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q Who asked you to write this letter? A This was drawn up by the members, secretary and myself. Q Who asked you to write the letter? A The Secretary did. Q Who is the Secretary? A Mr. Tanner, Jim Tanner. Q Who asked Mr. Tanner to write the letter? A This was brought up through community actions. I have another letter which was signed by an organization in Fort Lupton which was brought to my attention. Q Does the membership as a whole vote for the adoption of this letter? A Yes; they will. Q Yes, they would? A Yes, they will, or did. Q Did they? -126- A Yes. Q At what meeting? A At our last meeting. This was discussed at the last meeting. This was an emergency. Q That isn ' t what I asked you. Did the membership as a whole vote for the adoption of the letter of June 30th, 1970? A This I can ' t answer directly, because they all come over and signed this particular letter, so evidently they were in favor of it. Q Is this the entire membership on this letter? A Yes. Q You mean there is nine people that belong to the Fort Lupton Chamber of Commerce? A No; I beg your pardon. This is directors. There is about 115. Q Doesn ' t the general membership vote for the adoption of Exhibit D? A No. MR. PEHR: Thank you. MR. MARRANZINO: But the consensus of the meeting was this was a necessary thing for your area? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. MARRANZINO: Nothing further. MR. PEHR: A consensus of nine people. -127- MR. MARRANZINO: Of the meeting. MR. PEHR: The meeting only acts by some formal vote; isn ' t that right? THE WITNESS: Right. MR. PEHR: You do have formal votes, but they' re all allowed to vote, even Fort Lupton. THE WITNESS: That 's right . We ' re human. MR. MARRANZINO: Nothing further, Mr. Brown. The Applicant rests at this time, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Do you have anything further? I think at this time since we have quite a crowd, we would ask for all of those who are against this site, which we are discussing this evening, to please raise their hands. MR. PEHR: Just a moment. In the first place, I think it ' s improper to consider whether or not the permit should be granted by a popular vote. Secondly -- CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: We' re not deciding. We want to know what the feeling is of the people here tonight and we will take a vote. MR. PEHR: Let me finish my record please. Secondly, that many of the people in opposition to the granting of this permit are not here tonight and they were here last time. MR. TELEP: Bill, I think I better talk for the Board -128- here, I think they were all on notice and you were noti- fied and you stipulated to this continuance, so that ' s a most unfortunate thing if they cannot be here. As mentioned previously, the matter of granting a permit like this is purely discretionary with the Board. It ' s an administrative hearing, Bill. I think the Board is within its right to ask for a show of hands, get the names and addresses of the people who are here who are for it or against it. You had that opportunity. I think perhaps maybe the Applicant should be granted equal opportunity. And whatever weight will be given to it will be given by the Board. If you want to make another objection, fine, but I think the Chairman wants to proceed and conclude this. MR, PEHR: I appreciate that. But I think we have a right to place our objection on record. MR. TELEP: You did. MR. PEHR: All right. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: I would ask for all of those who are opposed to the site we are discussing here tonight please rais their hand. MR. TELEP. Bill, those who have not already testified, we would like to have their names and addresses. MR. PEHR: Those who have not testified? CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Those of you who have not testified -129- please raise your hands, give your name and address, please. MRS. BURGER: Mrs. Jack Burger, Route 1, 402, Fort Lupton. MR. BURGER, JR. : Jack Burger, Junior, Route 1, Box 342, Fort Lupton, and could I say a word, please. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: You may. MR. BURGER, JR. : It ' s true that everybody needs a dump. Trash is a big problem. Fine. Let ' s take the most beautiful country in southern Weld County and let ' s put a dump in it. I 'm sure the people here tonight will agree this area is a very fine area, a very fine agricultural area. And it ' s pleasant to the eye to drive by. So let ' s just put a dump in it. Thank you. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Are you asking for us to put the dump there, is this true, by your statement? MR. BURGER, JR. : If you want to take it that way. No, I 'm not. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Just wanted to clarify your statement. MRS. BURGER, JR. : Mrs. Sandy Burger, Jack Burger, Jr. , Route 1, Box 342, Fort Lupton. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Any others who haven ' t testified? MRS. PEHR: Alice Pehr, Fort Lupton. MRS. WILMOTH: Mrs. P. C. Wilmoth, Fort Lupton. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Are there any others? -131- MR. LUFT: A. L. Lust, Fort Lupton. MRS. LUFT: Mary Luft, Fort Lupton, Route 1, Box 407. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Are there any others who have not testified who are against the site or location? If not then I would ask for those who are in favor. MRS. BURGER: Let me say a word here. Most of these people that are in favor of it don ' t own any land near there. They don ' t get affected one way or the other. They ' re all hired men or people that live three, four miles away from the dump. It doesn ' t affect them at all. So I don ' t think they have no right to vote on it. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: All those in favor now, will you please raise your hands and we' ll start at this side and give your names and address. MR. PEHR: And how far they are away from the dump site. MR. PEPMEYER: Ed Pepmeyer, Route 1, Box 48, approxi- mately two and a half miles. MRS. PEPMEYER: Ann Pepmeyer, Route 1, Box 48, same distance. MRS. STEELE: Ann Steele, Route 1, Box 334, Three miles. MR. STEELE: W. M. Steele, same. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Are there any others across the back here who haven ' t testified who are in favor? MR. RICHMAN: Ed Richman, 240 Pacific , Fort Lupton, five miles. -132- CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Are there any others? PEGGY BYDOLEK: Peggy Bydolek, Fort Lupton, Coloardo. And may I also testify that Fort Lupton as a community does need a dump site and it is going to affect everyone no matter where. But it is better than it is somewhere else in the community, inside the town. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Is there anyone else who is for this sanitary land fill in this location who hasn ' t testi- fied who would like to get their name on the record. MRS. TAYLOR: Betty Taylor, Fort Lupton. I live about three miles from the dump. MR. TAYLOR: William Taylor, same address. MR. JOHNSTON: LeRoy Johnston, Dacono, Box 36. MR. DEASON: Bill Deason, Route 1, Fort Lupton, about two and a half miles. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Are there any others? MR. JOHNSTON: Speaking for myself, I realize the problems of Dacono. I realize the problems of Fort Lupton. I have apprehensions how a dump will be run from some of the testimony here. I sympathize with the fears of the people that have expressed themselves against the dump site. I know you have got a tough job to pick out a real site to satisfy the southern part of Weld County down there, but it ' s come to a point that we must pick a site somewhere. It ' s going to affect someone. I don ' t care -133- where you put it, it 's going to affect someone. So I just want to express my feeling that these people have valid problems and also that there are towns that have a lot of valid problems. And if you place this and maintain it, I think the maintenance of this plant is the utmost import- ance, if it does not affect the outside community or an outside area adjoining this dump site and you make sure of it with laws, with maintenance, the law is tough enough that this man will have to provide this kind of service, then I think it will be acceptable in some of the com- munities around this State. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Are there any others who are in favor of this sanitary land fill? There are one or two points I would like to bring out. We' ve had a great deal of discussion tonight and I 'm sure that most of you here do not know the rules and regulations that are set forth by the State, and you can all acquire these very easily through out County Health Department here and in our service building or from the State Health Department in Denver, and that address is 4210 East Eleventh Avenue, Denver, Colorado. I think there are very definite laws on how a sanitary land fill has to be operated and I think it would behoove all of us to be better informed as to these new rules and regulations which were set forth, if I remember correctly, in 1967. -134- UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: May I ask one question. Who enforces these rules? CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: These rules are enforced by the Health Department. UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Where does the Health Department have enough personnel to enforce these rules? CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Well, they have various ways. Basically I couldn ' t give you a definite answer. But we do have ways. It is something new. It ' s something new for Weld County and new for Colorado and new for the United States, and it ' s going to take a lot of hard work by all of us to really make it work. I feel that it can work. JACK BURGER, JR. : Sir, may I ask a question. As you know, through the testimony tonight and everything, Colorado 52 is a highly traveled road. It not only gets traffic from the local people and everything but tourists and everything, and Colorado is always the one to say "Keep Colorado Beautiful" and everything like this. Why even start the problem, even start to have the problem and then worry about having laws, when you can eliminate the whole thing by having it in some locality where it isn ' t so highly traveled by us, by tourists and everything else, where you have a beautiful countryside,and why take the chance of littering it up. -135- CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Mr. Lorenson, our County Planner, do you have anything that you would like to say on this at this time? UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Mr. Chairman, I have a question. I was wondering at the last adjourned hearing Mr. Norden stated that he was going to salvage material, brass and copper and iron, car bodies and such things as that. Now if he ' s going to operate a salvage yard, this land would have to be rezoned. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Here again if you would get a copy of these regulations you would find out exactly what he can do and what he can ' t do and how he has to do it. UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: But he stated in his testimony that he was going to salvage all this material. He' s applying for a salvage yard not a sanitary land fill. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: Here again he would have to com- ply with these rules and regulations. MR. NORDEN. Mr. Billings, may I say something? Upon receiving these car bodies, if Mr. Suckla would like to, I would let him haul them and make the money off them to Denver. MR. PEHR: That ' s not the point. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: I would like to call on our County Planner to make some comments. (Burman Lorenson was sworn. ) -136- BURMAN LORENSON: I 'm Burman Lorenson, the Weld County Planning Director, and I have made a site investi- gation and observations of this particular site, and I have made my determination entirely from my own investi- gation. And I find that the existing surrounding use is compatible with the proposed sanitary land fill site, primarily because of the general agricultural use and the lack of water, preventing normal residential development. No significant development will occur unless the water situation changes. This particular site, immediate site, is out of the Northern Colorado Water Conservancy District and cannot be served. Immediately to the west they are in the District and there is a possibility there. However, to the east they are not. The site in particular, according to the Assessor ' s records, shows that there is a soil type of APB-7, which means that it ' s dry pasture land of poor quality soil, and that waste land is assessed at $3. 00 an acre and this land is assessed at $5. 00, which means the land has very little value. I was not able to get any information from the Soil Conservation District because they have not surveyed this area, and that ' s why I used the Assessor ' s records. -137- The Fort Lupton Land Use Plan shows their expansion to the east, not across the river, and this would further augment my suggestion that this land to the west is not going to develop residential as a plan does exist showing residential development to the east. However, I do have one final thing and that is that when I looked at the cut out there, say before granting of any permit, the deeper soils should bear more investigation by a soils expert, because it indicates, the reading I read is that impervious clay is the least desirable for this type of field and it appears there may be some type of soil in that area. One other thing has been said about highway traffic. Accessibility to the site is a highly desirable attribute to a dump site and is necessary if it ' s going to be used. That concludes my comments. MR. SUCKLA: I ' d like to ask you a question, please. Did you say the assessed valuation of that land was what? MR. LORENSON: The Assessor ' s Office shows the site where the dump is at $5. 00 per acre. MR. SUCKLA: You stated the land was not suited for agriculture. MR. LORENSON: Theirsoil indication shows that it ' s low, poor quality soil and that at best it ' s good for pasture land only. MR. SUCKLA: My land cattycorner from him is. Did -138- you look at the crop on that land? MR. LORENSON: I 'm only going by the Assessor ' s records. MR. SUCKLA: In that case I want my assessed valuation reduced. MR. PEHR: Wait a minute. Let ' s take our time. Let me ask some questions of Mr. Lorenson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q Did you go to the site? A Yes, sir. Q When were you there? A Two days prior to the last hearing. Q Did you look at the crops in the adjoining areas? A Not with the eye of determining them. I may have seen them, but I didn ' t really see what was there. Q Did you examine the soils on the adjoining area? A No. I did on this site though. Q Do you know if the soil in this area is the same as the adjoining lands? A I know that the Assessor ' s Office has -- Q That ' s not what I asked you, please. Did you look at the soil of the adjoining lands and compare them to the soil on the site? A No, I did not. -139- Q Then you are unable to state that the Norden land will not raise crops of your own knowledge? A No, I can ' t say that it won ' t. I ' m just saying what I read from the Assessor ' s records. Q The Pssessor is not here so I can ' t ask him any questions, can I? A I have an Assessor ' s map which you can look at. Q That wasn ' t my question, was it? A No. But you ' re sure welcome to look at it. Q Now where is city water? A I don ' t know where city water, the Fort Lupton source of water is. I do know -- Q Is city water available to this site, to the Norden site? A I don ' t believe there is any available. I do not know that as a fact. But I do not believe it is available. Q Did you make an investigation as to the closest possibility of city-type water? A I have a map of Central Wells water lines they have and indicating from their map they show a water line, six inch water line, to be located no closer than two and a quarter miles to the west. Q Is there a water line on Highway 52? A Two miles to the west on Highway 52. MR. SUCKLA: It ' s a mile due west, because I have it on my land right there. -140- MR. PEHR; Wait a minute. We ' ll get to it. Q Is there any other source of city water? A If there are any, I 'm not aware of them. Q You aren ' t. All right. What ' s this bit about impervious clay, why is it important? A I ' ll read you the book. I 'm reading from "Municipal Public Works Administration", and we' re talking about refuse under "Sanitary Land Fill" , Page 353. Q Who is the author? A The book is a series of municipal management put out by the International City Managers Association of 1313 East 60th Street, Chicago, Illinois. Q Go ahead, you were going to tell us about impervious clay. A Well, I didn ' t get around to the particular author. You want me to look that up further? Q Well, are they the publishers? A They ' re the ones that causelthis volume to be published, yes. I ' ll read. It says, "Impervious clay is the least desirable since it creates trashy problems in wet weather and has a tendency to produce fissures in dry weather. " When I went out and looked at the site, some of the lower lands looked as if they may have clay deposits in them. Q Would these fissures permit rodents to then have access to the trash that ' s below it? A I don ' t know. -141- MR. SUCKLA: I think what it is, the water will go down these cracks. That land will crack, there is times when it will crack six inches wide. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: I think you should let Mr. Lorenson go ahead with his testimony. Everybody has had a chance to speak. MR. PEHR: I thought he was through. MR. LORENSON: I am. Mr. PEHR: I would like to recall Mr. Burger. JACK BURGER Recalled as a witness by the Protestants, being previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM PEHR: Q You are Mr. Jack Burger? A Yes, sir. Q You heard Mr. Lorenson say that the closest water line was about two and a half miles away? A Yes. Q You have testified to the location of your home. Do you have domestic water supplied to you? A Not where we live; where my son lives. Q How far away is that? Well, it ' s a mile off Highway 52. A No, it 's no mile. Three quarters of a mile, half a mile. -142- Q How far? A Quarter of a mile. And Mr. Suckla ' s isn ' t that far away. Q I ' ll get to him in a minute. Your closest domestic water supply is about a quarter of a mile away? A Yes. And we can -- Q From Highway 52 and the second county road? A We can get it there anytime we want. MR. PEHR: Now, Mr. Suckla, where is the closest domestic water supply to your land? MR. SUCKLA: We have it right on our land. MR. PEHR: That would be just kitty-corner from the -- MR. SUCKLA: Yes, the Norden land. Also we have Stanley water which is very highly desired for domestic use. Westminster is using Stanley water for their water supply. MR. PEHR: That ' s all I have. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: If there is no further testimony to come before this Board I would ask for a motion. MARSHALL ANDERSON: Mr. Chairman, I move we take this hearing under advisement and notify the applicant. HAROLD ANDERSON: I ' ll second the motion. CHAIRMAN BILLINGS: We will take this under advisement . The meeting is adjourned. (Adjourned at 9:30, p.m. , June 30, 1970. ) -143- REPORTER' S CERTIFICATE STATE OF COLORADO ) ) SS: COUNTY OF WELD ) I, Colin J. Campbell, Certified Shorthand Reporter, State of Colorado, hereby certify that I took in stenotypy all the proceedings had in the foregoing hearing on the dates stated. I further certify that the foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of my notes. Dated this j71" day of July, 1970. ,// z7 Colin J. Campbell, QSR -144- Hello