HomeMy WebLinkAbout20003285.tiff BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
COUNTY OF WELD, STATE OF COLORADO
TRANSCRIPT OF PUBLIC HEARING
IN RE : PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT FINAL PLAN, S #525, FOR 536
LOTS -- BEEBE DRAW FARMS, SECOND FILING
PURSUANT TO NOTICE to all parties in interest, the
above-entitled matter came for public hearing before the Weld
County Board of County Commissioners on September 13 , 2000, at
915 10th Street, Greeley, Colorado, before Esther Gesick, Deputy
Clerk to the Board and Notary Public within and for the State of
Colorado, TRANSCRIBED by Loma J. Huh, Fit To Print editing and
transcription service .
I HEREBY CERTIFY that the attached transcript is a
complete and accurate account of the above-mentioned public
hearing.
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
WELD COUNTY, COLORADO
Carol A. Harding
Deputy Clerk to the Board
Page 1
2000-3285
APPEARANCES :
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
Barbara J. Kirkmeyer, Chairman
M. J. (Mike) Geile, Pro-Tem
George E. Baxter, Commissioner
Dale K. Hall , Commissioner
Glenn Vaad, Commissioner
WELD COUNTY ATTORNEY OF RECORD:
Lee D. Morrison, Esq.
APPLICANT:
Jim Fell , REI , LLC
ALSO PRESENT:
Esther Gesick, Acting Clerk to the Board
Monica Mika, Planning Department representative
Trevor Jiricek, Health Department representative
Pam Smith, Health Department representative
Frank Hempen, Jr. , Public Works representative
Don Carroll , Public Works representative
Diane Houghtaling, Public Works representative
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PROCEEDINGS
1 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: September 13th, 2000 . Call to order
2 the Hearings for the Board of County Commissioners before the
3 Board of County Commissioners . May I have roll call please?
4 ESTHER GESICK: Glenn Vaad?
5 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Here .
6 ESTHER GESICK: Dale Hall?
7 COMMISSIONER HALL: Yes .
8 ESTHER GESICK: George Baxter?
9 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Here .
10 ESTHER GESICK: Mike Geile?
11 COMMISSIONER GEILE: Here .
12 ESTHER GESICK: Barbara Kirkmeyer?
13 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Here . Call up Docket Number 2000-44 ,
14 Planned Unit Development Final Plan S #525 . Mr. Morrison?
15 LEE MORRISON: Madame Chairman, this is the
16 application of Beebe Draw Farms, Second Filing, care of Jim
17 Fell, REI , LLC, for a Planned Unit Development Final Plan
18 S #525 , which is Beebe Draw Farms, Second Filing, located in
19 Section 3 , 4 , 5, 8, 9, 10 , 15, 16, and 17, Township 3 North,
20 Range 66 West, 6th PM, Weld County, Colorado. Notice was
21 published August 31st, 2000, in the SOUTH WELD SUN.
22 MONICA MIKA: Good morning. Monica Mika of Department
23 of Planning Services . The property under consideration today is
24 located east of and adjacent to Weld County Road 39, in between
25 Weld County Road 38 and Weld County Road 32 . This site is
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1 comprised of 2 , 317 acres and we approved a Change of Zone,
2 through Case Z-412 , on 12/23/83 , and later amended on May 24th,
3 1989 . Following the zoning approval, in 1985, the First Filing
4 of Beebe Draw was recorded for the creation of 188 lots .
5 The overhead does delineate the difference between the
6 First Filing and the Second Filing. The internal lots that are
7 not attached do represent the original 188 First Filing lots .
8 Those lots are platted and are presently in the process of being
9 constructed. The case before you today is the Final and Second
10 Filing of Beebe Draw.
11 This shows you what the entire subdivision looks like,
12 including both Filings 1 and Filings 2 . The case under
13 consideration today will result in the creation of 536
14 residential lots and site amenities, for a total buildout for
15 Beebe Draw of 724 residential units . The average lot size for
16 this Filing is 1 . 9 acre lots, served by Central Weld Water
17 District and individual septic systems .
18 Also included in this application is the recognition
19 of the Overall Site Amenities Plan, comprised of a clubhouse
20 with swimming pools, tennis courts, 19 miles of equestrian
21 riding trail , 13 acres of -- 8 acres of RV storage and trailer
22 storage, an outdoor training and equestrian stables, [inaudible]
23 center, a marina and dock master house .
24 The Beebe Draw Metropolitan District has been
25 developed and designed to maintain and invent on-site
26 improvements . Twenty-one percent of the lots have been
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1 specifically designated to house horse-related activities . The
2 horses themselves will not be permanent -- will not be
3 permanently housed on the property, but they will go to the area
4 defined on the Plat for overnight housing and stabling.
5 The buildout plan is designated to occur between 2002
6 and 2007, as reflected on the overhead.
7 And this -- it' s kind of hard to see, but it is
8 delineated. The sixth phase, the seventh phase; first and
9 second; and second and fourth phase up there . The sign posting
10 for today' s hearing occurred on 8/25/2000 . Thirteen referral
11 agencies reviewed this case . The oil -- the Colorado Oil and Gas
12 Commission, the Town of LaSalle, Platte Valley Soil Conservation
13 District did not specifically return comment on this case but
14 have commented throughout the history of Beebe Draw.
15 I met on Friday, 8/1/2000, with two concerned citizens
16 in opposition to this request, and received a letter from Jane
17 Evans Cornelius that' s attached to your packet, listed as an
18 Exhibit, who is also in opposition to this request .
19 On September 5th, 2000 , taking the concerns of
20 surrounding property owners into consideration, with the
21 formulation of the development standards, the Department of
22 Planning Services' staff recommended to the Planning Commission
23 that this case be approved, as the Department found that all
24 five development standards located in Section 28 . 13 of the Weld
25 County Zoning Ordinance had been met .
26 However, the Planning Commission did recommend a
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1 recommendation for approval , but was not able to support that
2 approval . They did not make a recommendation specifically in
3 denial for this case . However, I believe that, based on
4 information that they've entered into the record, that was their
5 intent . Because there is not a specific recommendation of
6 denial, the case will be forwarded to you based on the
7 Department of Planning Services' recommendation for approval .
8 Those items for consideration for you today are found
9 in Section 28 . 14 of the Weld County Zoning Ordinance . And I ' ll
10 just read the criteria list for you: A) The proposed PUD plan
11 is consistent with the Weld County Comprehensive Plan and
12 compatibility with future development as permitted by the
13 existing Planning and Development Ordinance; B) that the PUD
14 Plan conforms to the approved PUD Zone District; C) the uses,
15 buildings, structures shall be compatible with the existing and
16 future development of surrounding areas permitted by the
17 existing zoning and with the future development as projected by
18 the Comprehensive Plan or Master Plan with respect to the
19 municipalities ; D) the proposed Planning and Development Final
20 Plan conforms to the performance standards in Section 35 . 3 of
21 the Weld County Zoning Ordinance; and E) the proposed PUD Final
22 Plan will be in compliance with the Weld County Zoning
23 Ordinance, Section 50, pertaining to the overlay districts .
24 This case is unique in the fact that, because it
25 received its Change of Zone prior to the new P -- prior to the
26 PUD Ordinance that you' re more accustomed to using, it has a
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1 right to follow through under the PUD Zone Ordinance as proposed
2 in the Zoning Ordinance . Therefore, the criteria issues are a
3 little bit different than what you would normally see presented
4 to you at the Final Plan.
5 Also for the record, the property owner is here, as
6 well as several surrounding property owners that are interested
7 in speaking to the Board. I also have been asked to let the
8 Board know that representatives from the Health Department do
9 have previous engagements and court hearings, and they will be
10 needing to leave by 11 : 00 but can join us afterwards if need be.
11 So if you have any questions, you might want to direct those to
12 them early in the hearing.
13 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: I 'm sorry, who was that to again?
14 MONICA MIKA: Pam and Trevor.
15 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: They need to leave at 11 : 00?
16 MONICA MIKA: At 11 : 00 .
17 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Does the Board have any
18 questions of Monica at this time? Mike.
19 COMMISSIONER GEILE : In the original application
20 they've talked about eliminating the equestrian center, as far
21 as an enclosed facility. And I notice that within -- part of the
22 conditions, number 1 under 2A, "equestrian center with indoor
23 arena and riding school . " So they've added that back in? Or did
24 I misunderstand that?
25 MONICA MIKA: It is part of the application. There
26 were some issues about whether the uses and functions of the
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1 equestrian center met with some of the reasons for the
2 continuance, before it went to the Planning Commission. We just
3 needed to be really clear on it .
4 COMMISSIONER GEILE : A quick couple of other
5 questions, if I may, Madame Chairman.
6 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Sure .
7 COMMISSIONER GEILE : There' s also some insinuation
8 that there will be training of horses at the equestrian center
9 for nonresidents .
10 MONICA MIKA: That' s correct .
11 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Is that permissible within our
12 rules and regulations?
13 MONICA MIKA: That was approved as part of the
14 conditions for the Change of Zone Z-412 .
15 COMMISSIONER GEILE : In the RV parking part of it, for
16 the 140 units, is that just RV units for people who live there,
17 or would this be for anybody who wants to use the marina?
18 MONICA MIKA: No, that' s specifically for the
19 residents of Beebe Draw.
20 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Is that just parking for their
21 RVs, unrelated to the marina? If they have an RV, they can park
22 it there -- is that what you' re saying?
23 MONICA MIKA: Yes, because their Covenants prohibit
24 them parking RVs on the lots . Therefore they've designed an
25 area specific to the subdivision to house that activity just for
26 the residents .
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1 COMMISSIONER GEILE : In your referrals from the School
2 District, they do not have an impact fee? I know that they' re
3 dedicating land in their proposal , to the School District and
4 also to the Fire District .
5 MONICA MIKA: They do -- right, and also, actually
6 that' s a 34-acre site that they propose to give to the School
7 District . I do believe that there' s a condition that says that
8 they still need to meet the requirements of the School District,
9 and that often includes a bus turnaround and school pickup zone.
10 And that was included at the Planning Commission, to address the
11 school issues .
12 COMMISSIONER VAAD : May I ask a question, Barbara?
13 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Sure .
14 COMMISSIONER VAAD: -- of the road bridge?
15 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Not just yet then. Let ' s go on to,
16 if anybody else has questions of Monica.
17 COMMISSIONER HALL: You made a comment that 1 . 9 acre
18 average for all the 536 lots . Do you have a range listed
19 somewhere, the smallest and the largest?
20 MONICA MIKA: Actually, it is included in the
21 application, and I can get that for you between now and the end
22 of the hearing.
23 COMMISSIONER HALL: Please.
24 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: And could you comment on the water?
25 Did you say that each of the lots would have an individual tap,
26 or they have adequate water?
Page 9
1 MONICA MIKA: Each of the individual lots will have a
2 tap from Central Weld. In the First Filing, all 188 lots, they
3 required all of those taps for the First Filing. In the Second
4 Filing, they are proposing to acquire the taps for each phase of
5 development as the phase occurs .
6 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: So in other words, they don' t have
7 500 and -- what is it? -- approximately 40 taps right now? That
8 they haven' t acquired 540?
9 MONICA MIKA: That' s correct .
10 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Have they acquired any taps, to your
11 knowledge, at this time?
12 MONICA MIKA: I do not -- I don' t know.
13 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: So they' re going to acquire as they
14 build the homes .
15 MONICA MIKA: As they build the homes .
16 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: And the building of Phase 2 is
17 anticipated to start when?
18 MONICA MIKA: Two thousand and two.
19 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: And that was with which water
20 district again?
21 MONICA MIKA: Central Weld.
22 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Also, just kind of
23 procedurally, on the Planning Commission, they made a motion to
24 recommend approval and it was denied on a 5-2 vote . So you' re
25 saying procedurally that' s not a recommendation to deny, because
26 that wasn' t the motion, because they -- correct? Is that
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1 correct?
2 LEE MORRISON: Well , prior to making the motion on the
3 whole case, there were a number of changes made to the Planning
4 staff recommendation. So the Planning Commission modified the
5 original staff recommendation as reflected in the minutes . I
6 mean, I think you still treat that -- even though the motion was
7 for approval -- I mean, their recommendation was not to adopt
8 their motion for approval . So I don' t think you can treat that
9 as a positive recommendation.
10 The reason for doing it that way is if they had
11 conditions which they wanted to see in the resolution, should it
12 be approved -- you know, if they just vote to deny, then none of
13 those changes get shown to you or incorporated in the text of
14 the pending resolution.
15 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Thank you. Go ahead.
16 COMMISSIONER GEILE : If I could, on the water, do we
17 have any kind of a commitment from Central Weld Water that they
18 are able to provide the taps to this subdivision? I saw nothing
19 as I was going through the application.
20 MONICA MIKA: No, in -- had they applied -- it' s at
21 the time -- it' s generally at the time of the Change of Zone
22 that the Board looks at and makes a determination for adequacy
23 of water. And when they applied for the Change of Zone, there
24 was indication in the application at that time that Central Weld
25 would be able to provide the water.
26 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: And the Change of Zone was what
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1 year?
2 MONICA MIKA: Nine -- there' s been several different
3 types of activity. The original one was 1983 , and then it was
4 further amended in 1989 . We -- but no, we do not have the tap
5 commitment that you would be accustomed to take into that .
6 COMMISSIONER GEILE: Okay.
7 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Do you have any further questions on
8 that? Okay. Questions this way, of Monica?
9 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Monica, or maybe Lee -- I mean,
10 I - - it seems that we would have to have some type of updated
11 commitment . I mean, it' s that far back.
12 LEE MORRISON: Well, I think the applicant may be
13 prepared for -- the taps are one issue . One of the other issues
14 you normally look at is the additional infrastructure that' s
15 necessary to provide service . And I believe the applicant has
16 evidence to show what infrastructure has already been improved
17 with respect to the Water District to serve this area. So that' s
18 one of the issues you look at today, as well as the need for
19 infrastructure improvement and agreements to accomplish that . So
20 that' s another factor to consider.
21 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Any other further questions of
22 Monica at this time? Okay. Does the Board have -- or first of
23 all, does either of the -- does the Health Department have any
24 comments they' d like to make at this time?
25 PAM SMITH: Pam Smith, Weld County Department of
26 Public Health and Environment . Not any specific comments, but
Page 12
1 I ' d be happy to address questions that you have; go that
2 direction.
3 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. And you had the opportunity of
4 -- Commissioner Hall asked a question about 1 . 9 acres per
5 average per lot . Do you have anywhere in your information about
6 the size per lot?
7 PAM SMITH: The notes that I have is that the general
8 lot sizes and the overall densities were dictated and approved
9 during the process in the ' 80s, and so what -- we didn' t --
10 won' t address those issues . But we further addressed the septic
11 system issues in some development standards, as far as primary
12 and secondary envelopes, and language preserving that second
13 envelope . So --
14 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Did you have any questions of the
15 Health Department?
16 COMMISSIONER HALL: Not right now. I want to find out
17 more about what size the lots are .
18 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay.
19 COMMISSIONER GEILE : [inaudible] , if I may.
20 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Sure.
21 COMMISSIONER GEILE: On the sewer systems, have we got
22 any perc tests on that soil?
23 PAM SMITH: Yes, we do. There' s about 17 homes that
24 are either built or under construction. I probably am not the
25 only person at the office that does the inspections, but I 've
26 probably done half of them. Most of them, the perc rate is
Page 13
1 around two to three minutes per inch. It' s very sandy soil, and
2 the perc rate is very fast . It doesn' t meet the requirements for
3 standard septic system as outlined in the regulations without
4 some sort of augmentation, which requires them to be designed by
5 an engineer.
6 One lot that I have seen, the perc rate did meet that
7 perc rate standard criteria, which is -- the minimum, without
8 any augmentation as far as engineering, is five minutes per
9 inch. And I believe that one perked at six -- five and a half or
10 six. So it was just marginally acceptable . In those kinds of
11 situations, when you have soil that percs too fast, what happens
12 is that the engineer will specify that they over-excavate down
13 to six feet, six or seven feet below the surface; bring in four
14 feet of suitable soil that has a perc rate that meets that perc
15 criteria, which will slow down the percolation rate and the
16 absorption of effluent through the soil ; pack that in, so that
17 you get good, even compaction; put your septic system in on top
18 of that ; and then backfill .
19 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Just a moment . Trevor, would you go
20 upstairs and ask them to stop that construction during our
21 hearing? Thank you.
22 COMMISSIONER HALL: They might be right next door.
23 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: They might be right out here too --
24 I 'm not sure where they are . Thank you. And in the meantime,
25 while we' re doing that, you' ll need to talk up louder.
26 PAM SMITH: Okay.
Page 14
1 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Thank you. Go ahead. Were you
2 finished?
3 PAM SMITH: Yes .
4 COMMISSIONER GEILE : If I may, could you tell me,
5 about what is the life expectancy of that kind of a system?
6 Twenty years? Or do you know?
7 PAM SMITH: At that point, the life expectancy
8 shouldn' t be any different than any other system, which is 20 to
9 25 years, if properly maintained. That would be maintenance, as
10 far as pumping on a regular basis; that the, you know, leaky
11 faucets are controlled so that you don' t have an amount of water
12 going through the system that exceeds what the capacity is, the
13 handling capacity; the growth of the family.
14 Those kinds of things -- all of those things play a
15 part in how long that septic system will last . The kind of
16 abuses that are done to it -- if you build a building over it,
17 then you have no evaporation; it all has to rely on absorption.
18 If it' s on the north side of a building, where it doesn' t get
19 good full-time exposure to sun, you' re going to have snow and
20 precipitation that' s going to sit, that' s going to keep that
21 system moist in winter months, when you' re going to have less
22 evaporation and more precipitation. You know, those kinds of
23 management things that have an impact on how long a septic
24 system will last .
25 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Was there -- if I may, ma' am - -
26 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Sure .
Page 15
1 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Was there anything that you saw
2 submitted by the developer that would include anything in their
3 Covenants or anything to ensure that those systems are
4 maintained or not? Or maintained in the future, to ensure that
5 the longevity of them doesn' t become --
6 PAM SMITH: I haven' t seen that .
7 COMMISSIONER GEILE : -- a detriment to the
8 environment?
9 PAM SMITH: I haven' t seen that . And one of the things
10 that, when we were at the Planning Commission, that -- oh, where
11 is it? Prior to recording the Plat, number P, we had put in a
12 condition for "long-term operation and maintenance plans for the
13 septic systems should be submitted to the Health Department for
14 acceptance and approval . " That would include some sort of
15 aggressive management plan if the -- for regular pumping and
16 inspections of the systems, and then asking for where that
17 funding was going to come from to do that, and how they were
18 going to be able to enforce that .
19 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Okay. And the last question, if
20 I may: what is the water table in this area? In view of the
21 fact that there' s a major reservoir just down [inaudible] , what
22 is the water table? Do you have any idea, or have you seen any
23 samples as to what the depth is?
24 PAM SMITH: Everything that I have seen related to
25 septic system construction has been greater than eight feet,
26 which is all that we ask for in septic exploration, to know that
Page 16
1 the water table is greater than eight feet . I don' t think that,
2 in any of the reports that I've seen, that it was at eight feet,
3 so I would say that it' d have to be greater than that .
4 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Any further questions for the Health
5 Department staff? No? Okay. Public Works, do you have any
6 comments that you' d like to -- I ' m sorry. Did you have
7 questions of --
8 MONICA MIKA: No, I just had some responses back to
9 those questions .
10 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Well, we' ll get back to you.
11 Okay. Public Works . Frank, do you have any comments that you'd
12 like to make at this time?
13 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : Not at this time . We have an
14 Improvements Agreement that we've negotiated with the developer
15 for these expansions, based on current standards .
16 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Can you tell me what the estimated
17 daily traffic would go up to with 700 homes in the area?
18 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : Yes, I can.
19 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Seven hundred and twenty-four units .
20 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : Actually what we -- we did have a
21 packet -- excuse me . I 'm Frank Hempen with the Department of
22 Public Works . We did have a traffic study done, which we have
23 ostensibly approved. And there are many ways out of this
24 subdivision, and the splits run something like, on Weld County
25 Road 32 in the future, there are about 1, 740 vehicles per day;
26 39 north is 1, 520 ; 39 south is about, well , 1, 086 or about
Page 17
1 1 , 100 .
2 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: And that' s projected when?
3 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : At buildout .
4 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: At buildout?
5 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : Yes .
6 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: So at buildout of 724 units, you' re
7 projecting there will only be 1 , 100 cars on -- 1, 100 --
8 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : Well, I think -- I 'm sorry, I
9 interrupted you. Please finish.
10 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Eleven hundred cars on Weld County
11 Road 39?
12 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : South. 39 south.
13 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: South. And north was 1 , 740?
14 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : No, north on Weld County Road 39
15 was 1, 520, and on Weld County Road 32 west was 1 , 740 . So the
16 total there is about 4, 300, 4 , 350 . Now, one of the confusing
17 points might be that typically, we allow a reduced trip
18 generation for this type of an area because of its location. In
19 a suburban metropolitan area we use almost ten trips a day. In
20 this area we allow six.
21 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Comment?
22 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Can you tell me what the current
23 ADTs are for those roads that you just talked about?
24 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : There are about 1, 800 on 32 ; 1, 540
25 on 39 north; and about the same number on 39 south. And when I
26 say north and south, I mean, I should make it clear that it' s
Page 18
1 from 32 .
2 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Any further questions, Public
3 Works? Dale?
4 COMMISSIONER HALL: So you would add these other
5 numbers to the current numbers .
6 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : Yes, that' s correct . At the end of
7 -- at buildout .
8 COMMISSIONER HALL: The comment was made on the
9 internal road system would be paved and then turned over to the
10 County. Do we have resources to handle that kind of a -- I
11 guess the first question is, how many miles of roadway is that?
12 And do we - - do you have any concerns that we don' t have full
13 capacity to handle that maintenance?
14 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : I can' t give you a good answer to
15 that . I was thinking about that, I was thinking about that
16 earlier today -- I know snow and ice is not a big impact,
17 because we only do residential streets when they' re -- if we
18 could get to them -- the major snow and ice control activity
19 would be on their - - on the arterial road that goes through to
20 the subdivision.
21 I think it will have an impact, and I have not
22 quantified that .
23 COMMISSIONER HALL: Doing the budget, then, do you
24 have any idea what effect the roadway system within that would
25 have on the amount of money that we' d receive for that
26 additional --
Page 19
1 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : No, I did not -- I have not done
2 that .
3 COMMISSIONER HALL : Because I would almost venture a
4 guess that we wouldn' t be getting as much money as it' s going to
5 take us to --
6 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : Well, typically residential does
7 not return its -- there are studies that indicate that
8 residential development does not return the full services that
9 they demand. There' s no question about that . That ' s pretty
10 [inaudible] .
11 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Mike?
12 COMMISSIONER GEILE : If I could, a continuation of
13 Commissioner Hall ' s . The comments, Article 5, Section C -- it' s
14 listed in the application - - says "the County will be
15 responsible for all maintenance and repair of roads and drainage
16 not accepted by Weld County. " So, you know, I just want to do a
17 continuation of that, that we would be responsible for the
18 maintenance and repair of all roads within the subdivision, as
19 Commissioner Hall said. But then they go on to say, "not
20 accepted by Weld County. " Do you have any idea what that might
21 mean?
22 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : Well, I know exactly what our
23 requirements have been made are, and that is, we would be
24 responsible for the crossroad drainage structures . All the
25 other drainage within the subdivision is the responsibility of
26 the Metro District . I believe that was required to be placed on
Page 20
1 the Plat .
2 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Are you finished? Just to follow up
3 about the traffic count, we always seem to only think about what
4 that means as far as maintenance and upgrade of the roadway
5 system. Would we be getting to the point where it would
6 warrant, start warrant traffic signals?
7 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : Not with these counts . I don' t
8 believe that' s necessary. We do have -- we have asked, as a part
9 of our Improvement Agreements, to provide accel/decel lanes at
10 important locations and left-turn bays on the perimeter. But I
11 don' t believe we' re dealing with the type of traffic loads that
12 would call for signals in the buildout, up to the buildout stage
13 of this development .
14 Now, if you were to give me a scenario where there
15 might be another one on the other side of 39 like this, and
16 maybe one north, at some point in time we' ll recheck it . It' s my
17 judgment that this -- the traffic loads we' re talking about
18 would not call for signals .
19 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: At what point, and what traffic load
20 do you get to when you start requiring, when it starts
21 warranting traffic signals, in the uniform manual?
22 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : It' s a little tough to generalize
23 that, but it has a lot to do with peak loads at specific hours
24 and how long the delays are. But typically you begin to deal
25 with conflicting traffic loads approaching the tens of thousands
26 before that becomes a big issue, and we' re not dealing with
Page 21
1 those kinds of loads here right now, or in buildout of this
2 development . Nor do I think the background traffic would add
3 enough to make that difference.
4 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Questions for Public Works? George .
5 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Yes . If I heard you right, you
6 mentioned "major arterial" within the development . And look at
7 the map, is there --
_ 8 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : Well --
9 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: The main road through there is
10 --
11 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : I should have just called it an
12 arterial .
13 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: But it looks as if it has -- is
14 going to be treated probably differently than the rest of the
15 roads in there . Is that correct?
16 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : It does serve -- as you can tell
17 just by inspection, it does serve as one of the major roads that
18 collects traffic -- and I don' t use the term "collect" as a
19 classification here, Commissioner Baxter --
20 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: I understand.
21 FRANK HEMPEN, JR. : -- and drops, transmits that
22 traffic out onto 39 .
23 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Okay.
24 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Further questions for Public Works?
25 Okay. Monica, did you have a follow-up to a question?
26 MONICA MIKA: Yes . Monica Mika, Department of Planning
Page 22
1 Services . The lots vary in size from 1 . 6 to 3-acre lots . And
2 that is referenced in 202 of the Geotechnical Drainage Report .
3 But that was not scanned for you today, so I have attached the
4 Exhibit 31 up there so you can look at it . It defines the size .
5 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. And that was again -- what was
6 it? -- 1 . 6 to what?
7 MONICA MIKA: 1 . 6 to 3-acre lots .
8 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Any further questions on that? No?
9 Okay. Go ahead.
10 COMMISSIONER GEILE: I just had one question on the
11 marina . Evidently they' re going to have boats and everything,
12 and they' re going to create a marina?
13 MONICA MIKA: Yes .
14 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Do we have any regulations that
15 deter -- dictate or determine what they do, how they do it? Do
16 we have any requirements as far as that whole thing is
17 concerned?
18 MONICA MIKA: They've been working with the Corps of
19 Engineers on the marina, and they do have a window of
20 development . They only have a few months in which they can do
21 that marina . And I know the applicant' s prepared to specifically
22 address that too, for the Board. But as far as internal
23 regulations, no, we wouldn' t require permits or anything for it .
24 COMMISSIONER GEILE : So we will have -- we would have
25 no requirements as far as monitoring, supervision, regulating,
26 anything like that , of the marina?
Page 23
1 MONICA MIKA: No, not through us .
2 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: The Metro District -- is that -- the
3 Beebe Draw Metro District, is that what it is?
4 MONICA MIKA: Yes .
5 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Does that cover only water and
6 sewer, that type of infrastructure? Is there anything in the
7 Metro District about provisions for law enforcement?
8 MONICA MIKA: I don' t recall it specifically
9 addressing law enforcement, but it does address site amenities,
10 such as street signs, public rights of way, types of maintenance
11 issues . It' s more municipal than what we would find in any other
12 subdivision, but I 'm not sure about the law enforcement issue .
13 It does address the 34-acre site being set aside for a law
14 enforcement agency to build a site on there. You might ask Lee .
15 LEE MORRISON: There' s a separate law enforcement
16 authority. Metro districts are not authorized specifically to
17 do law enforcement . They can have traffic safety and related
18 -- and facilities . But there has been a Beebe Draw Law
19 Enforcement Authority, and I believe that they "debruced" a year
20 ago in anticipation of the homes being built . I think the
21 applicant can address that further.
22 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Does the Board have any
23 further questions for staff? Is there anything else from staff
24 at this time? Okay. Thank you. Would the applicant or the
25 representative like to come forward at this time and make their
26 comments to the Board? And, if you would, please, state your
Page 24
1 name and address first for the record, and then your comments to
2 the Board.
3 JIM FELL: My name is James W. Fell, F-e-1-1 . I live
4 at 11409 West 17th Place in Lakewood, Colorado . That' s 80215 .
5 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Thank you. And your comments?
6 JIM FELL : Comments?
7 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Your comments regarding your
8 application?
9 JIM FELL: The -- some of the things that -- well , let
10 me start off by saying we were not prepared to answer a lot of
11 the questions that were raised at the committee meeting last
12 week. I have brought some people with us that have been involved
13 with us in the various areas that were discussed at that
14 meeting, and I would like to introduce them so they can speak to
15 you in their expertise, in their areas of [inaudible] , in the
16 area of [inaudible] .
17 Some things that were raised this morning that I might
18 just touch on. The Metropolitan District has entered into an
19 agreement as far as -- with the County -- as far as roads in the
20 surrounding area, and we've determined that at a certain
21 buildout, certain things will be done . We have already done one
22 of them prior to the buildout because we felt the safety in this
23 area -- we put an access -- accel/decel lane at the entrance to
24 the project [inaudible] prior to any particular buildout .
25 We are - - we have agreed that we will handle all the
26 drainage in the project - - the Metropolitan District has, with
Page 25
1 the County. We've also already started picking up all the trash.
2 In other words, we have a free pickup once a week of the trash
3 of the project and will continue that through the whole project .
4 And we are prepared to enter into an agreement -- and
5 this was at the suggestion of the County also -- that we will
6 take care of the septic systems by having -- studying the
7 interior of -- on any septic system. This will be a [inaudible] ,
8 obviously a scheduled situation. And when needed, we will clean
9 out the septic systems, whatever date that is . Obviously it
10 would be dependent on the size of family, the size of the lot,
11 and the time of occupancy.
12 But these things will be assumed by the Metropolitan
13 District . I happen to be president of the Metropolitan District,
14 and I 've had this approval from our Board.
15 Questions were asked about the marina . We' re under
16 construction right now on the marina. As you probably have
17 determined from reading the agreement with FRICO, the boats are
18 limited to five-horsepower. There are no speedboats, there' s no
19 water-skiing or anything of that nature. They were primarily
20 developed for sailboats and trolling for fishing.
21 And fishing has been improved in the lake . A couple
22 years ago, FRICO had to tear out the dam and rebuild it, because
23 of damage at the surface . At that time, the concrete from the
24 dam was placed in a pile in the reservoir, and -- so that the
25 fish could breed around there . And also there have been some
26 tires full of cement that were sunk in the other area of the
Page 26
1 lake, so another area for. . . Some $10 , 000 worth of fish were put
2 in at that time, and we've continued to put fish in.
3 Now, we have a competitor with our fishermen, and
4 that' s the pelicans . If you've ever been out and looked at the
5 lake when the pelicans are in, they feed very well on that lake !
6 So they do eat a lot of the fish.
7 The marina will be -- there' s a difference in the
8 water level on FRICO' s reservoir, on the -- someplace from about
9 eight to ten feet between the high water mark and low water
10 mark. And we are building our docks so they' re floating docks,
11 so they can accommodate boats [inaudible] .
12 We' re taking some 50 , 000 cubic yards out of the
13 reservoir and for the marina, and we' re following the
14 instructions in the agreement we have with the Corps of
15 Engineers . And we do have the permit from them. I think that it
16 was mentioned that we have a limited time frame when we can
17 build the marina. It' s from August 15th to March 1st . And so
18 we' re working on it as quick as we can.
19 We have a law -- I think it ' s called a Law Enforcement
20 District that we've entered into with the Sheriff' s office . We
21 have a contract with the Sheriff' s office now for certain
22 events . And we have an entrance building to the project, that is
23 -- We built it, one, so that there would be recognition of the
24 project itself, and two, so that any time in the future, if the
25 Homeowners Association decided to make it a closed community and
26 have people check in and out, it would be there .
Page 27
1 In the meantime the Sheriff' s office is going to use
2 it as a substation in that area. And we've provided everything
3 they need as far as office furniture, a kitchenette, and so
4 forth, so that they can occupy it . They are using it now to some
5 extent, but it' s -- we anticipate and the Sheriff anticipates
6 that it will be used to a greater extent as soon as the phones
7 -- when we finally get the phones installed. We've been working
8 on that for some time .
9 With that, I would like to, if I could, introduce to
10 you - -
11 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Just a second, let me see if anyone
12 has any questions for you at this time .
13 JIM FELL : Okay.
14 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Does the Board have questions
15 for Mr. Fell?
16 COMMISSIONER GEILE: I did, do.
17 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Commissioner?
18 COMMISSIONER GEILE : If I , going back to the Beebe
19 Draw -- when you created the Metropolitan District, it says "the
20 district was organized to provide various service and facilities
21 including water, streets, drainage, safety protection, parks and
22 recreation, television transmission and relay, transportation,
23 and mosquito control, set forth in the District Service Plan. "
24 My question would be, you have a Metropolitan District
25 Service Plan. What does it specifically state as far as safety
26 protection? And then the next question I have, is there anything
Page 28
1 included within the Covenants of Beebe Draw that relates to
2 that?
3 And the other question would be the septic systems,
4 you said, we' ll clean as needed. Well by whose standards? I
5 guess that would be your standards -- if you feel they' re
6 needed, then you would clean them. Is there something within the
7 Covenants that spells out how that would be done? Or is there
8 some other document within the Metropolitan District as far as
9 the Service Plan, that it' s spelled out in the Service Plan? Or
10 how does all that work?
11 JIM FELL: There is no document, there' s no -- nothing
12 is spelled out in the Covenant of how often they have to clean
13 the septic systems . We've anticipated, I think, [inaudible] ,
14 people would clean out their septic systems . And we still
15 anticipate that that would be the case .
16 But due to the fact that there' s been questions on how
17 often this would be done, we felt that it would be wise -- and
18 we haven' t gotten a contract on it yet . We' re in the process of
19 finding a firm to contract with us to inspect the systems and to
20 clean them out . Now, if there' s a regulation in the County as to
21 when they have to be cleaned out, we certainly will follow it .
22 If there isn' t, we' ll have to leave it up to the judgment of the
23 professional cleaning system as to when it needs to be done . The
24 main thing we want to get away from is systems that are not
25 cleaned, and they' re not cleaned at the right time or properly
26 cleaned.
Page 29
1 The way this system -- and we have a gentleman here
2 who will discuss our septic systems and plans for the whole
3 septic system. He' s an expert in that field, and actually we
4 have two people who are going to [inaudible] .
5 And now, as far as safety is concerned, we are part of
6 the County, of course, and have an agreement with the Sheriff' s
7 office for services for certain events . We also hire an
8 independent guard service, who' s been very effective in the
9 project and has so far, since we've hired them, we've no
10 incidence of problems . I mean, this is a company out of Fort
11 Collins . It' s called Bob Fleming Guard Service . And they were
12 recommended to us by the Fire Chief from LaSalle . He had -- he
13 had seen them work in other places and he recommended to us to
14 use them. And they've been very successful . And they' re there
15 every day, and they' re there, you know, for about -- actually
16 about twelve hours a day.
17 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Back to a couple items, the trash
18 hauling or handling, and the septic and the cleaning out the
19 septics and doing the studies annually. Those are additional
20 items now, apparently, to your Service Plan. Are those --
21 JIM FELL: No, those were -- those -- the trash
22 hauling might be, but we had the Service Plan -- I mean, we had,
23 as a Metropolitan District, the duty to have a clean operation.
24 We felt that it was better to have trash hauling free to the
25 homeowner and have it picked up on a regular basis, and the
26 Metropolitan District pay for it , than to rely on when
Page 30
1 somebody' s going to have their trash picked up. I think we've
2 all been, unfortunately, have lived in situations or been around
3 situations where somebody was not responsible for having their
4 trash picked up. So we thought we would [inaudible] .
5 As far as the septic system, we have the duty on
6 septic systems, as a new Metropolitan District .
7 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Other questions right now for Mr.
8 Fell? No . Did you have somebody else that you wanted to bring
9 up at this time?
10 JIM FELL: Yes, if I may, and I ' ll be glad to answer
11 questions again at the end of their presentations if anything
12 [inaudible] . I ' d like at this time to introduce Kent Colburn,
13 who is our marketing manager, who can bring you up to date on
14 what is happening as far as marketing this property.
15 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. While he' s doing that , could
16 you tell me what Exhibit is the Covenants in, or what area would
17 the Covenants be under? Do you know where the Covenants are
18 located?
19 COMMISSIONER GEILE: No, they' re way back in there .
20 They' re in the application, almost at the end of the
21 application. In the application.
22 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Thank you. And who' s coming
23 up?
24 JIM FELL: He' s coming.
25 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: And if you would, please, state your
26 name and address for the record, and then your comments to the
Page 31
1 Board. Thank you.
2 KENT COLBURN: I'm Kent Colburn. I live at 12628 North
3 Woodland Trail, in Parker, Colorado . My zip code is 80138 .
4 COMMISSIONER HALL : Before you get started, could you
5 move that microphone up a little bit closer to your mouth? I
6 think it would help everyone, including myself .
7 KENT COLBURN: Is that better?
8 COMMISSIONER HALL: Thank you.
9 KENT COLBURN: Okay. I 'm here to give you an overview
10 of what we've done marketing, talk about the demands . And I 've
11 got some exhibits that I ' d like to leave that will show you some
12 of the type of home that are being built at this point in time .
13 And we offer a newsletter. When we measure our traffic, we have
14 a newsletter that we mail out on a quarterly basis .
15 And these are the demographics from the responses that
16 the people fill out on that newsletter. And they just give you
17 an overview of where people are coming from, how they found us,
18 what their age groups are, their income levels, the size of
19 their households, what they' re interested in purchasing and the
20 time frame in which they would like to do that , and what their
21 interests are in living on a project like this .
22 And those interests range from country living,
23 fishing, sailing, different non-powered water toys, nature
24 watching, if they' d like to have horses or not . And then we have
25 an item there that' s water skiing, but we don' t have any
26 intention; we just like to see -- we' re not going to offer water
Page 32
1 skiing, but we' d like to see how many people are interested in
2 water skiing.
3 I' ll give this to Monica and she can give it to you,
4 if you' d hand it out . That has some of the advertising that
5 we've been doing in there also.
6 I 've been a new home marketing specialist in Colorado
7 since 1970 . During the 1970s, ' 80s and ' 90s, I helped establish
8 and sell out many new communities and neighborhoods, from Fort
9 Collins and Boulder to Denver and Colorado Springs . And if I 've
10 heard it once, I 've heard it a thousand times : "Where can I buy
11 affordable country acreage?"
12 All along the Front Range there are literally
13 thousands of families who want to get out of urban and suburban
14 sprawl and the congestion. These are just folks, and they' re
15 looking to improve the quality of their life for themselves and
16 their families . They' re looking for peace and quiet . They' re
17 looking for affordable small-acreage lots . They want their
18 children to grow up to appreciate the value of nature. They want
19 the country amenities right in their own development, so they
20 don' t have to leave home to enjoy the quality time with their
21 families . And most importantly, they' re willing to put up with
22 a few inconveniences to get what they consider to be a very
23 special lifestyle .
24 What they want, what all these families are searching
25 for, is exactly what the Beebe Draw Farms PUD was approved to
26 become . The PUD was approved for 800 lots on 3 , 484 acres, and
Page 33
1 the First Filing approved with 188 lots . We opened for sales in
2 June of 1999 . We had 32 one-and-a-half-acre to five-acre lots,
3 ranging in price from $60 , 000 to just under $100 , 000 . We had
4 three paved roads, with three approved builders offering five
5 homes priced from $240 , 000 to $350 , 000 .
6 Now this is the kind of development that you really
7 can' t sell to anyone . People come all the way out there and they
8 either love it or they hate it . So our sales approach had to be
9 an informational, soft-sale approach, which it still is . We give
10 people all the information we can about the planned development
11 -- the homes, the amenities, the schools, the shopping, and
12 living in the country with nature . It' s a lot of information,
13 and it' s very detailed, but it' s all in the soft-sell approach.
14 Now one of the problems that we had was where would we
15 find a listing broker who would continue that soft-sell approach
16 for us? So we interviewed brokerage companies from Greeley,
17 Longmont, Loveland and Fort Collins . And after two months of
18 listening to proposals and seeing presentations, we selected
19 Caldwell Banker/Everett Williams out of Fort Collins as the
20 listing broker on the property.
21 Our sales team handles all the sales for all the
22 builders . And they' re friendly, informed, and experienced in
23 working with several builders in one development at one time --
24 and that' s not an easy task.
25 Our marketing efforts to date have included paid media
26 advertising in the Denver Post New Housing section; the Longmont
Page 34
1 Times/Call ; the Boulder Camera; the Loveland Reporter Herald;
2 the Fort Collins Coloradoan; and the Greeley Tribune . We also
3 have an aggressive real estate brokerage co-op program. We take
4 realtors on tours and make presentations whenever and wherever
5 we can get an opportunity. And we also have the Web site .
6 This year we had one home entered in the Northern
7 Colorado Homebuilders Association "Parade of Homes" in August,
8 and over 100 families toured the development in two weekends . As
9 part of the "Parade of Homes, " we also gave away a two-and-a-
10 half-acre lot, valued at $70 , 000 .
11 So far, all of these efforts have enticed more than
12 800 families to tour the development in the past 14 months . And
13 as a result, the first residents moved in last December. There
14 are nine families living in the development today. There are
15 three families that have homes under construction; six families
16 have purchased lots and are working with builders to design
17 their new homes . There are three spec homes available for
18 immediate occupancy, and builders have another four spec homes
19 under construction right now. In fact, of the first 63 lots that
20 we opened for sale, we only have 17 left to sell .
21 In 2001, we have a Festival of Homes planned to run
22 from the end of April through the first weekend in June, with
23 the proceeds from the entrance fees going to charity in Weld
24 County. We have to six to eight new homes -- we will have six to
25 eight new homes in the Homebuilders "Parade of Homes" next year
26 and will donate more entrance fees to charity. We will give away
Page 35
1 at least one more acreage lot .
2 And our marina, which is under construction right now,
3 will be the site of community fishing derbies, sailing lessons,
4 charity fund-raising regattas, and it will also be a very good
5 spot to watch the sunset with your friends . We expect to have 24
6 builders building new homes in the development next year, and we
7 have targeted 60 lot sales for the year 2001 .
8 And that' s a quick overview of our marketing efforts
9 to this date . And I ' d personally invite anyone and everyone to
10 take a tour of the property with me . And I know that when you
11 know all the details of the planned development, that you' ll
12 want to live there too. Thank you. Do you have any questions for
13 me?
14 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Questions .
15 COMMISSIONER GEILE : I was just curious, if I may --
16 in the original application you said that you anticipated 21
17 percent -- I think, your number -- of the people that would
18 eventually build there would have horses . Is that what you've
19 found so far?
20 KENT COLBURN: No, it' s far below that . Of the figures
21 that I just handed to you, Lee, there' s a chart there. We had
22 403 out so far this year, and I believe that number that were
23 interested in horses was in the 20s . So that' s far below the 20
24 percent .
25 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Maybe you can tell me what in
26 your rules and regulations, Covenants, wherever it might be,
Page 36
1 which would dictate how people take care of the waste of the
2 animals, horses .
3 KENT COLBURN: Actually, the Metropolitan District --
4 we will be picking up manure on a weekly basis . We' re not going
5 to leave it up to the individual homeowner, once again, just
6 like the trash program. People will compile it within a
7 compartmentalized area, and the trash people will come through
8 and pick it up once a week.
9 COMMISSIONER GEILE: Will that be hauled off-site?
10 KENT COLBURN: Yes, we' ll make a dumpsite for it .
11 COMMISSIONER GEILE : On-site?
12 KENT COLBURN: No, it ' ll be off-site .
13 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Other questions? Other questions? I
14 just have a curious question as well . Given that you told us
15 that the lots are valued at $70, 000 and homes, according to your
16 sheet here, are going anywhere from $250, 000 to $425, 000, could
17 you just give me a definition of affordable housing?
18 KENT COLBURN: Not affordable housing -- affordable
19 acreage lots . There are acreage lots west of I-25 right now --
20 if you can find one, an acre starts at about $300, 000 and it' ll
21 go up from there . These are affordable acreage country lots .
22 Not affordable housing -- I never said that . This is living in
23 the country on acreage -- it' s very different . I do this all
24 over the country, and I know what affordable housing is, too.
25 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Are there any other questions? Thank
26 you.
Page 37
1 KENT COLBURN: Thank you.
2 JIM FELL: I would like to -- is this all right here?
3 I ' d like to introduce Wayne Lorenz . He' s an engineer with Wright
4 Water Engineers . They specialize in water treatment, drainage,
5 septic systems, sewer systems, and so forth. And he has made a
6 study of our place, and we have been trying to follow his advice
7 and will continue to follow his advice on the septic systems
8 [inaudible] .
9 WAYNE LORENZ : Good morning. My name is Wayne Lorenz .
10 I 'm with Wright Water Engineers, address 2490 West 26th Avenue
11 in Denver, 80221 -- 80211, excuse me . I 'm a registered
12 professional engineer in the state, and I ' m here to review some
13 facts relating to the wastewater plan for the proposed
14 development, that being these on-site septic tank absorption
15 field systems .
16 And I' d like to begin first by saying that by meeting
17 the County Individual Sewage Disposal Regulations, adverse
18 impacts to the groundwater are not likely to occur. Septic
19 systems, absorption fields are used throughout the state -- very
20 common use of wastewater treatment and disposal from individual
21 homes and other facilities . And septic system absorption field
22 regulations are common. The counties are very good -- they
23 follow the state individual system regulations, and they' re all
24 really predicated on the assumption that they provide adequate
25 treatment if you follow the regulations and guidelines .
26 So there are a few facts here I would like to
Page 38
1 summarize as quickly as I can for you. First of all , at this
2 proposed development, we've talked about the average lot size
3 will be 1 . 9 to 2 acres, so there is sufficient area for soil
4 absorption systems on that footprint, plus sufficient area to
5 allow an envelope for a second absorption field if it is
6 required. That is a good practice and, although I don' t think
7 it' s part of the County regulations, it' s a [inaudible] practice
8 to do. We've talked about that with the Metro District and in
9 the development of the property. And my point is that there' s
10 enough area there for a second system, by far.
11 Another fact is that the soil borings that have been
12 performed on the site show that there is groundwater - - there
13 isn' t -- as you heard before, there is no groundwater to a depth
14 of where the soil borings had been performed, and that is
15 roughly 15 feet . There' s been 83 geo-technical borings taken on
16 the site, and there has been no groundwater observed down to,
17 like I say, 15 feet . And there has been no bedrock.
18 So even considering, perhaps, some seasonal
19 fluctuation in the groundwater level, I 'm told the groundwater
20 level here is far below that 15 feet . I don' t have data here for
21 you to support that, but my point is, even considering that
22 there could be some seasonal fluctuation, that fact will be that
23 the groundwater level will be at least four feet below the
24 bottom of the absorption trench, by the groundwater regulations
25 -- as required by the regulations, County regulations .
26 Another factor is that the soil we have on the site is
Page 39
1 aeolian in nature -- that is, it' s windblown, very fine sand.
2 They have -- the soil has high percolation rates, as you've
3 heard previous . In fact, the percolation rates, as observed at
4 the site, are too fast as compared to the regulations . The
5 regulations allow a minimum of five minutes per inch of
6 percolation. We really have seen with percolation - - I think
7 there' s been 17 on the site for this submittal in the soils
8 report that I have -- percolation rates taken -- and those rates
9 have ranged probably from between . 1 to 1 or 2 minutes per inch.
10 So, very fast soil -- and I wish I had this soil , by
11 the way, in some of the other locations . Usually it' s the other
12 way. We usually have problems where the soil is too tight --
13 it' s very clay situations more toward the mountains, where we
14 have a lot of clay, and it ' s very tight . Either that , or we've
15 got bedrock, or groundwater.
16 This is a good situation with respect to design,
17 because we can use, as was mentioned before -- the regulations
18 allow soil treatment or an imported soil to be brought in to
19 increase that absorption -- or the percolation rate . And we have
20 done that, from an engineering standpoint , increased those rates
21 from between 10 to 30 minutes per inch. And that is done by
22 adding an amendment, either a silt or a bentonite, to either the
23 native material, or we bring in the material .
24 So my point is that we can engineer a layer, and that
25 layer will be at least four feet, four to five feet below the
26 pipe to affect an acceptable percolation rate, and that' s 10 to
Page 40
1 30 minutes per inch. And we have done that before in other
2 situations .
3 Based on an assumed 20 minutes per inch percolation
4 rate as a design criteria, and using a five-bedroom house as an
5 example, a large five-bedroom house, the amount of area or
6 envelope that will be required is approximately 2 , 500 square
7 feet for an absorption field. That is according to the criteria
8 and regulations . That is approximately three percent of the area
9 of a two-acre lot . And even if we' re talking about the smallest
10 lot, which occurs anywhere between 1 to 1 . 6 acres, that
11 percentage is quite low. Probably the highest percentage is
12 four, four and a half percent of that total area. So again, just
13 an example as -- of -- that we have sufficient area here,
14 especially with the percolation rate that we can design into the
15 systems .
16 Another point is that -- and a very important point,
17 from my perspective -- is that the Metropolitan District has
18 committed to maintaining and inspecting these systems . By far,
19 the problems I 've observed with septic and absorption field
20 systems is the lack of attention by the homeowner. And that can
21 result in problems, problems up to failure of a leach field bed
22 because of tree roots; other problems with the septic tank
23 because of not pumping it .
24 I think it' s a very good advantage of having the Metro
25 District, and -- although not a regulation requirement, there' s
26 a commitment here to do that . We've seen that more and more, and
Page 41
1 I'm a very big supporter of that . And I would suggest also to
2 the applicant that a maintenance schedule be [inaudible] for
3 each home area by the Metropolitan District so they know when
4 the septic system has been pumped last and when they need to be
5 notified to pump their septic tank. And that probably would be
6 -- you know, that would be set, the criteria, every year to
7 three years .
8 Finally, you did hear that the water system is by the
9 Central Weld Water District, and therefore there are no on-site
10 wells, individual wells, which is a comfort to me from a water
11 quality standpoint . Therefore, all of these -- in summary, it' s
12 my conclusion that on-site systems can be engineered to meet the
13 Weld County Individual Sewage Disposal Regulations, and I'm not
14 aware of any water quality or any other data that demonstrate
15 any detrimental impacts that may occur from this development .
16 I' d like to open it up for questions . I ' d also like to
17 point out that David Shupe, who is also a registered EE in the
18 State and has done many, many septic systems in Weld County --
19 I don' t want to call him an old guy, but he is an old sage in
20 installing these systems . He' s here also to answer any questions
21 from a maintenance, construction and engineering standpoint . Are
22 there any questions of the Commissioners?
23 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Questions . Let' s start with Dale .
24 COMMISSIONER HALL: I 'm assuming that the current
25 homes in there are doing the same type of engineered system for
26 the septic systems . Is that correct?
Page 42
1 WAYNE LORENZ : That' s correct . To my knowledge, in the
2 County being, any system - - or any soils that have high
3 percolation rates like this go to an engineered system, and it' s
4 something that the County has approved in the past .
5 COMMISSIONER HALL: So, from what I understand, you' re
6 saying that there' s -- you' d have to treat , like, 2 , 500 square
7 feet?
8 WAYNE LORENZ : That' s correct . Well --
9 COMMISSIONER HALL: Four feet or more deep?
10 WAYNE LORENZ : No, actually, that' s not correct ,
11 because the 2 , 500 feet accounts for -- this is in a soil trench,
12 absorption trench system, where the bottom of the trench is
13 three feet wide, and for a 2 , 500-square-feet system we need four
14 trenches 85 feet long. And in that trench would be -- underneath
15 the trench would be where the soil would be placed. That' s one
16 method of -- and that' s the -- the numbers that I gave you are
17 assuming that method.
18 There is another method that' s allowed, and that' s an
19 absorption bed system that places the piping over a bed, rather
20 than a trench. And that' s also allowed in the regulations . But
21 my calculations are for the trench system.
22 COMMISSIONER HALL : And do you have any idea how much
23 extra that adds to the cost of the septic system?
24 WAYNE LORENZ : I could only -- I could only guess
25 that . I would -- and I probably want to defer to David Shupe on
26 this, but I would guess maybe $1, 000, $1, 500 .
Page 43
1 COMMISSIONER HALL: And you' re saying, you suggested
2 that -- you stated that impact to the surrounding water is not
3 likely to occur. I guess I 'm assuming, then, that you' re saying
4 that after the effluent and whatever gets through the treated
5 layers, then as it goes through the regular soils, it would not
6 be contaminated in any way, or --
7 WAYNE LORENZ : Yeah, the regulations are developed
8 with that assumption, that the proper design is in the
9 regulations to address any water quality impacts to the
10 groundwater. I know that the treatment of the wastewater for the
11 organics -- the bacteria, the solids -- occur and then pass
12 through a septic tank. That treatment occurs just within a few,
13 let' s say, three to six inches of that layer that' s underneath
14 the distribution pipe . That' s where most of the bacteria are,
15 and that' s where most of the treatment takes place . And we' re
16 adding another, 4 feet, minimum, below -- well , 3-1/2 feet --
17 below that layer, which allows for slower -- slows that
18 wastewater down for any additional treatment . You know, the
19 majority of that treatment occurs at the very top of that layer.
20 So that' s, I guess, what I 'm saying. And I 'm not
21 aware, again, of any -- you know, the nitrate in this area, when
22 there is groundwater, is very high anyway. And usually with
23 septic systems the concern can be higher nitrate contribution to
24 a groundwater. We have not studied that here . We don' t even
25 know where the groundwater -- I don' t know. I just haven' t
26 extended my investigation that far. I just don' t know where the
Page 44
1 groundwater is under this specific site . I 'm familiar with the
2 groundwater in the area, and it really does vary, depending on
3 where you are from Beebe Draw, the seep .
4 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Mike?
5 COMMISSIONER GEILE: So you don' t know what -- well,
6 I started to ask you if you knew what the nitrate level in
7 Milton Lake was, but that' s all right .
8 A couple questions on the augmentation. I think this
9 was mentioned by Environmental Health, augmentation needs to be
10 part of this . Can you tell me how you' re going to accomplish
11 that, if you don' t have any commitment from North Weld? What
12 are you going to need from -- what are you going to need to be
13 able to accomplish the type of augmentation -- I assume we' re
14 talking about water augmentation. But how are you going to do
15 that?
16 WAYNE LORENZ : Well , my assumption is -- and I don' t
17 know that -- I guess -- this for a fact -- is that if there' s an
18 agreement with a tap for Weld, that there would be a requirement
19 from the Central Weld -- if they' re claiming water [inaudible]
20 this from that tap that serve -- if they' re claiming water for
21 the return flow, then there' s got to be a factor in there that
22 allows for the septic tank or absorption field returns . And I
23 would assume that if there' s any agreement by the District, the
24 Water District, that that' s still in the agreement .
25 Now, I don' t know what, specifically what Central
26 Weld' s requirements are for augmentation.
Page 45
1 COMMISSIONER GEILE: So you really haven' t had those
2 discussions with Central Weld?
3 WAYNE LORENZ : I personally have not .
4 COMMISSIONER GEILE: Okay.
5 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: I 'm going to refer to a letter that
6 is dated back, March 6, 2000 , from the Colorado Geological
7 Survey, with regard to the septic systems . And I just want to be
8 clear -- you said you' re not aware of what the depth to
9 groundwater is at this time?
10 WAYNE LORENZ : Not based on - - I mean, you know, I 'm
11 aware that the groundwater is less than 15 feet, based on the
12 soil borings in the report that was done for this site .
13 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: But in the letter, the last sentence
14 -- or, well , not quite the last sentence -- second to the last
15 sentence on the first page -- it talks about "with the
16 development of 800-plus homes on septic systems, there is the
17 likelihood of groundwater contamination, failure of leach
18 fields, and of effluent surfacing at undesirable locations, such
19 as basements . "
20 So are you trying to explain to this Board that if you
21 put in your trench system with your extra soils and that type of
22 thing, that you' re saying that those things won' t happen?
23 WAYNE LORENZ : We would design them so that wouldn' t
24 happen. I mean, I have no information that would lead me to that
25 conclusion, and I have not seen any specific information that
26 they used to draw that conclusion.
Page 46
1 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Part of it is they draw that
2 conclusion because the depth to groundwater is unknown, but
3 they' re saying that it is a [inaudible] channel of the South
4 Platte, and as a consequence groundwater may be expected to be
5 fairly shallow.
6 What about the leaching of pathogens? Would your
7 filter system, or your system that you' re trying to design to
8 filter the leach field basically -- what would that do with the
9 leaching of pathogens?
10 WAYNE LORENZ : It does filter out bacteria.
11 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: A hundred percent?
12 WAYNE LORENZ : Well, nothing' s a hundred percent .
13 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: I didn' t think so.
14 WAYNE LORENZ : I -- most of the bacteria that occurs
15 from domestic wastewater is fairly large, so the sand that we' ll
16 use will filter out that -- most of the bacteria are associated
17 with particles anyway. So it will filter out that particle, and
18 that bacteria will not be able to thrive in the environmental
19 conditions in the bed, and they will die there .
20 There have been studies -- and I 'm not sure I'm aware
21 of any locally -- that, you know, look at virus, look at things
22 that are a lot smaller than bacteria. And, really, that ' s an
23 area of research. Most of the research that I 'm aware of on the
24 bacter -- or any viruses -- and this is, this currently is a
25 research area -- but any viruses are usually inactivated before
26 they reach very many feet into the soil .
Page 47
1 So there is no real design criteria that ' s been
2 developed based on the research to address any concerns for
3 things that are smaller than a bacteria, like a virus . It has
4 been a concern, and there' s been research done on it . But it
5 just has not been addressed with respect to design, and I don' t
6 think there' s been a need to address it . So it really is the
7 state of the practice - - the design that I have summarized here
8 is really the state of the practice and is relied upon to
9 protect against, bacteria reaching the groundwater.
10 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Further questions? Please,
11 Glenn.
12 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Yeah, Mr. Lorenz, I don' t know if
13 you have the answer, but are you aware, are there any
14 restrictions by the water provider on the use of water outdoors,
15 such as lawn watering?
16 WAYNE LORENZ : I assume and hope that there are . I 'm
17 not sure with Central Weld and a tap. Perhaps someone else here
18 could answer your question on that specifically. I 'm almost
19 certain that there is, but I don' t know what that is .
20 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Thank you. Go ahead.
21 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: I think you've answered most of
22 the questions on the septic systems . I am familiar with septic
23 systems, having, you know, lived on one for all my life, and put
24 them in myself . So I'm familiar with how they work and how you
25 keep them up.
26 I guess in, sort of, following up on another question,
Page 48
1 the fast percolation rate . I assume -- and you can tell me if
2 this is in your expertise -- that allows the water to move
3 further than you normally would have it move, as well as faster?
4 WAYNE LORENZ : Well , the -- [inaudible] rely on the
5 percolation rate to hold the water and to give it a little bit
6 of treatment before it continues down to the lower levels . Plus,
7 also, you do get some coning effect, and as the percolation rate
8 decreases, the cone effect widens out . But -- and the idea is
9 there, it gives us a little [inaudible] comfort, more -- more
10 soil, a barrier, more of a barrier for that wastewater before it
11 does hit any groundwater, so that the . . . I think there is an
12 optimum, probably, percolation rate for treatment of that, which
13 really is in the range - - I think it' s 10 to 60 in the
14 regulations, in that range . And that' s why that was developed,
15 to enhance the treatment .
16 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: So it has a lot more to do with
17 treatment than it does eventual -- where the water ends up.
18 WAYNE LORENZ : Yeah, I think so . I think I would say
19 that .
20 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Just out of curiosity, you were
21 -- I don' t know of any other areas in the County where we have
22 this type of -- I 'm sure we don' t have this type of
23 accumulation, especially when we get to this many septics in an
24 area. Was there any questions asked of you, or did you do any
25 calculations on the possibility of doing any other type of
26 sewage in the area -- a sewage treatment plant or something like
Page 49
1 that? Or is there reasons why that couldn' t be done in this
2 area?
3 WAYNE LORENZ : We have discussed that, and that has
4 been the level of my involvement in this, is discussions . We
5 have not done a plan, looked at anything technically from that
6 standpoint . Certainly I 've thought about that, and, you know, my
7 question would be where we would do that , where we could locate
8 a treatment plant, because we' re quite a ways from any existing
9 treatment facility, a long ways . And economically it just
10 wouldn' t work here .
11 But if we did do our own on-site treatment facility,
12 a central facility, my question is, would there be any better
13 environmental aspect of doing that? We still need to get rid of
14 the effluent somewhere, and there' s still going to be some
15 contaminants in that effluent . So that' s the question I ask
16 myself, if we do look at planning like that, here at this
17 development . And I haven' t answered that question in my mind.
18 In other words, if we do have to dispose of treated
19 effluent from an on-site plant, where do we go with that, that
20 we won' t have other environmental impacts that I really can' t
21 define here? I just don' t see a real important environmental
22 impact from this proposal that would make me recommend that we
23 will need to look at this on-site system - - you know, a central
24 system.
25 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: I assume, as comparing one to
26 the other, the final disposition of water from the sewer system
Page 50
1 would have to be into the lake, or something like that?
2 WAYNE LORENZ : That is one conclusion. And because of
3 different impacts, I wouldn' t want to do that . I think there' s
4 less of an impact from the septic system use to the lake than
5 there would be if we put a on-site central system and discharged
6 into the lake . There would be less of a water quality impact to
7 the lake .
8 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Any further questions? No.
9 Okay. Thank you.
10 JIM FELL: I think some of you are already acquainted
11 with Dave Shupe . He' s been here for years . He was for many years
12 the leading engineer with Landmark Engineering in Loveland, and
13 he has originally worked on the first regulation for septic
14 systems in the Northern Colorado county when they were first
15 writing the first regulations . And he' s designed many septic
16 systems . And I' d like to ask him speak to this .
17 DAVID SHUPE : My name is David Shupe . I reside at 7525
18 Joel Place, in Loveland. Actually it' s between here and
19 Loveland, but --
20 As Wayne alluded to, I am a dinosaur. I 've been here
21 a lot longer than the average engineer. I , in fact, helped
22 write the first State septic system regulations in 1966, working
23 with Earl Balkin at the State Health Department . I have been
24 designing and supervising the installation of septic systems
25 since 1964 in this county and probably ten others in the
26 Colorado area, as well as some in other states .
Page 51
1 So I think I have a fairly basic grasp of the way
2 septic systems work. I live on one myself . It is a community
3 leach field that serves 13 homes . And it has been working very
4 well for the past 25 years, and I expect it to continue to work
5 very well for the next 25 years, frankly. We just recently did
6 a study on it, the quality of the bed and so on, to be sure that
7 it is functioning properly. And because of the maintenance and
8 care that it receives, it is still working very well .
9 This requires a couple of things . One is periodic
10 pumping of the septic tanks, and those of you who have lived on
11 them or have worked with them know that . Usually when a person
12 buys a lot out in the country they want to know how sewage is
13 being handled, and I tell them, "Well , the first thing we need
14 to do is check to be sure that your septic tank is being
15 pumped. " And the answer usually is, "Septic tank?"
16 Most people, all they really want to know about sewage
17 disposal is that when you push the little silver handle it goes
18 away. And so they don' t pay much attention to it . The
19 Metropolitan District approach that Mr. Fell has outlined and
20 that Wayne talked about, in my opinion, is a very good way to
21 handle that : to put every septic system on a tickler file so
22 that it comes up on somebody' s screen about every three or four
23 years to be pumped, depending on the use and the number of
24 people in the family, and so on. The suggestion that we have
25 made to Mr. Fell is that the District personnel would inspect
26 the septic tank once every year. This only takes about 25
Page 52
1 minutes, and if the risers are built up to the surface so that
2 it' s readily accessible, this is a very quick process, and you
3 can tell whether a tank needs pumping or not in a very short
4 period of time.
5 We do have one problem that is beginning to rear its
6 ugly head, as far as septic systems are concerned, and that is
7 antibacterial soaps . Nearly everything anymore advertises itself
8 as being antibacterial . And this was done -- nobody asked me if
9 I wanted that antibacterial soap, I ' ll put it that way. What
10 that does -- or it can do, at least -- is slow down or, in some
11 extreme cases, even kill the bacterial colony that forms in the
12 bed and actually do away with the bacteria which are treating
13 the effluent .
14 One company that I'm aware of has developed an
15 additive -- it' s called an anti-anti-bacterial -- and I use it
16 myself in my own system, adding it twice a year to neutralize
17 the effect of the anti-bacterial soaps and detergents that are
18 now in the market .
19 This is the kind of thing that good supervision, such
20 as the Metropolitan District could supply, will take care of . It
21 can notify people of the problems; it can add the additives as
22 they' re needed; it can pump the tanks on a regular basis; it can
23 check them; it can periodically check the fields to be sure that
24 they are not daylighting -- although that' s not a likelihood
25 here, simply because -- well, those of us in Weld County say --
26 or in Larimer County, I should say -- say that Weld County gets
Page 53
1 all of our topsoil . And that' s really what it does . The winds
2 coming down the front slopes carry most of our topsoil to you,
3 and we' re left with percolation rates that range up to two
4 hundred minutes per inch, and you have all the soil that
5 percolates at two minutes per inch. It' s not quite fair, but
6 that' s the way life is .
7 Basically what I 'm saying is that much of Weld County
8 is sitting on a sand filter. And when the groundwater is in
9 excess of 15 feet below the surface, you' re going to get all the
10 additional treatment that you would ever need below the bottom
11 four feet of the soils that will be standardized to meet the
12 normal criteria for design. And I 've designed many of these
13 systems myself .
14 I 've also designed and supervised the installation of
15 evapo-transpiration systems, which percolate up instead of down.
16 In fact I , as far as I know, am the first engineer to have
17 designed that kind of system in the State of Colorado . And some
18 of those that I designed more than 35 years ago are still
19 working very effectively. I 've kept track -- maybe a little bit
20 of vanity, but more just research to be sure that systems do
21 continue to work.
22 I am convinced that, under proper maintenance and
23 supervision, a septic system will provide effluent treatment
24 probably more effectively than a centralized plant would on-site
25 here -- even if you could get one approved by the State, which
26 I doubt . Interestingly enough, the EPA, however, has changed
Page 54
1 its mind several times over the last 15 years, depending on how
2 much Federal funding was available, and they no longer talk
3 about building large transmission lines and carrying sewage 2 ,
4 3 , 5 , 10 miles to treatment . The large plants are much more apt
5 to have environmental problems than small plants . And not only
6 that, but the sewage goes septic in the long transmission lines,
7 and you have a different kind of a problem once you get to the
8 plant than you ever wanted. So they don' t advocate large
9 treatment plants for huge metropolitan areas anymore . And, as
10 I say, some of it is because there is no Federal funding for
11 transmission mains anymore .
12 But be that as it may, it' s my opinion that in an area
13 like this, a septic system, even 724 septic systems, are of less
14 potential environmental impact than even a treatment plant on-
15 site would be .
16 I don' t know if you need any more than that, but I 'm
17 willing to answer any questions you may have .
18 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Any questions? Dale .
19 COMMISSIONER HALL: Are you aware of any studies that
20 have tried to look at the concentration of septic systems in a
21 certain area and how that affects anything?
22 DAVID SHUPE: I know of one or two European studies
23 that have been made. They' re not very well recognized in this
24 country. I will tell you that roughly a third of the population
25 of this country is on septic systems, and that ' s something you
26 perhaps didn' t know. So we' re talking about -- what is that?
Page 55
1 800, 000 people? No, it ' s more than that .
2 COMMISSIONER HALL: So what you' re saying is we don' t
3 know what the effect is .
4 DAVID SHUPE : I 'm saying that I don' t think the effect
5 in this particular kind of soil is even measurable . I think
6 it' s extremely minimal , if there is any.
7 COMMISSIONER HALL: When you do a perc test, you' re
8 doing it primarily in, probably, dry ground and all that? Does
9 --
10 DAVID SHUPE: No, you saturate the soil for 24 hours
11 before you run the test .
12 COMMISSIONER HALL: Does that, though, take into
13 account perhaps a constantly charged area? I mean, if you've
14 got a lot of water from --
15 DAVID SHUPE : That' s precisely what it is supposed to
16 measure . The idea is that the bed area will be wet all the
17 time, and you want to know what the percolation rate is under
18 that condition.
19 COMMISSIONER HALL: Okay.
20 DAVID SHUPE: Now, I will qualify that somewhat, in
21 that the regulations currently require an over-design factor
22 that is quite high. And, as a result, much of the time, the
23 entire bed area will not be wet . And that' s somewhat
24 detrimental to the effectiveness of the bed. But I 've argued
25 that point for 35 years now, with everybody up to and including
26 the State level , and at a couple of national levels, and it
Page 56
1 doesn' t seem to affect most people' s thinking. We still over-
- 2 design by a factor of somewhere between five and seven, in terms
3 of the required bed area .
4 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Any other questions?
5 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: I 've got a quick one, just
6 because you' d be the one to answer this, I believe . The normal
7 system -- the normal shallow system, not your evapo-
8 transpiration system that designed it up -- how much of the
9 water normally evaporates?
10 DAVID SHUPE: It depends a little bit on whether
11 people plant the area, the surface of the bed, or not . But
12 normally you can expect probably 8 to 12 percent transportive
13 loss .
14 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: I ' d heard figures quite a bit
15 higher than that . That' s why I wondered.
16 DAVID SHUPE : If you use a type of soil similar to the
17 wicking material that we use in evapo-transportive systems, so
18 that the water can rise, yes, you can get up to 30 percent . But
19 with the clay soils that are prevalent in so much of the western
20 -- the area west of here, Larimer County, you don' t get that
21 much.
22 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Any other questions? Thank
23 you. Okay. Mr. Fell, do you have quite a few more people that
24 need to testify?
25 JIM FELL: I have two more people [inaudible] .
26 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. I'm going to take the
Page 57
1 opportunity at this point, because we do have commitments --
2 some of the Commissioners do have commitments at noon -- to ask
3 if there is anyone in the public who needs to testify this
4 morning, or if you are able to come back this afternoon. So my
5 question is, if there is anybody in the public that has come to
6 testify at this public hearing, if you need to get up and
7 testify before noon because you are unable to come back after
8 1 : 30 . Okay, if so, I need you to come up to the microphone and
9 go ahead and state your name and address for the record and make
10 your comment .
11 Okay. And again, if you would state your name and
12 address for the record, and then your comments to the Board,
13 please .
14 JANE EVANS CORNELIUS : I am Jane Evans Cornelius . I
15 reside at 18300 Weld County Road 43 , LaSalle, and I am the
16 property owner to the east of this development .
17 I wrote a letter, which I believe is a part of your
18 packet, and I'm certainly not going to read that letter to you
19 today. It summarizes my concerns and goes over the points .
20 Just in listening to all of this, I took some notes . And I don' t
21 do this for a living, and I'm real amateur, so . . .
22 One of the things I remember about the hearing to
23 approve this Metropolitan District was at some point this
24 Metropolitan District was going to be turned over to the
25 Homeowners Association to manage . So it seems that we have the
26 Metropolitan District, who is going to be the enforcing agent
Page 58
1 for making certain that all of these various things we are
2 concerned about take place . Yet at some point in the future,
3 that Metropolitan District, which is a quasi-governmental unit,
4 will step out of the picture -- I believe, maybe when the bonds
5 are repaid? You' ll have to look back at the record on that .
6 The other thing I am concerned about is, if you do the
7 math on this, it makes the Metropolitan District somewhat at
8 risk. And if this Metropolitan District fails, which we have
9 certainly seen in Colorado that that can happen. There' s an
10 instance, a large instance of them south of Denver failing;
11 there' s the whole Lott-Erie fiasco where they failed. What
12 happens with the enforcement of these various septic tank, road
13 things, if this Metropolitan District fails?
14 I listened with interest to a very articulate
15 marketing director. And I wondered if he knew that of the
16 hundred families who toured, a large percentage of those were
17 local farmers who were just nosy. I also am a little bit -- one
18 even commented, that the quote "show home" had already drifted
19 in the sand, inside the house.
20 With a year' s intensive marketing, full-color ads in
21 the Denver Post, full-page, full-color ads -- I don' t know what
22 they cost, but I 'm sure it' s a lot -- you've basically got 12
23 houses that are sold; nine that they say are occupied and three
24 that are under construction in pre-sell . In the greatest real
25 estate market we have ever seen in this State, where in most of
26 these developments we see the houses sell within two weeks, 48
Page 59
1 hours - - I 've heard realtors say that they sell before they go
2 on the MLF [sic] list -- that we basically had 12 sold. And you
3 could dispute that figure; maybe it' s 18 .
4 So I 'm thinking, okay, they've got a $2 million bond
5 issue already, and the interest on that bond issue' s got to be
6 in the $150, 000-200, 000 range, because it had to be a pretty
7 high-interest bond -- we' re looking at some pretty high property
8 assessments on these 12 to 18 houses . And I'm wondering if
9 these people know that . Also, if this fails, who' s going to be
10 the policeman standing at the door?
11 I also wonder if these people who are reading these
12 ads know that the greatest outbreak of avian botulism we've seen
13 in this State occurred on the Milton Lake last summer, and there
14 were tens and tens of thousands of dead water fowl in the lake .
15 No one -- the wildlife biologists did not determine what caused
16 it, but they do say there is no incidence of proven transmission
17 to human beings -- whatever that means .
18 And I also wonder if the residents know that this lake
19 is drained regularly. It' s an irrigation empoundment .
20 I also would like to know when these borings for the
21 septic systems were done . I know on my land, which is identical
22 in soil structure and so forth, the groundwater table can vary
23 from - - oh, we've had backhoes out there doing work where you
24 never hit water, and then during irrigation season, you could
25 take your hand and dig a hole and hit water. Literally, you can
26 walk across the ground and it feels like a sponge . And that --
Page 60
1 I would just like for you to look at the accumulated effect of
2 870 tanks .
3 Also, has anybody ever really thought about that if
4 this is built out , this country community is going to be larger
5 than the town of LaSalle or Platteville or Kersey or Gilcrest?
6 We' re not talking about a country community. We' re talking
7 about a small town with no enforceable services .
8 One of my neighbors said that we ought to name it
9 "Parasite Acres, " because it' s going to suck from the services
10 of all these other communities . Thanks .
11 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Just a second. Does the Board have
12 any questions? No. Okay. Thank you very much. Is there
13 anyone else who needs to testify before the noon hour, because
14 they can' t -- they' re unable to come back after 1 : 30? I thought
15 someone raised their hand. No? Okay. Mr. Fell, you have --
- 16 I'm sorry, you won' t be able to come back this afternoon? All
17 right . Okay. If you would, please state your name and address
18 for the record and then your comments to the Board.
19 JAMES OSTER: My name is James Oster. I live at 19923
20 Weld County Road 43 , LaSalle . You should have a letter that we
21 presented to the Planning Commission, and it was supposed to be
22 in this file . I live approximately three miles from this area.
23 And I have many concerns regarding this, as Jane said, a town
24 bigger than LaSalle or Platteville .
25 One question that was addressed was the traffic . I am
26 concerned of how much traffic is going to go off of Road 39,
Page 61
1 turn right, on Road 40, 38 , and then eventually get on Road 43 .
2 43 is a road that is very heavily traveled now. It ' s a dirt
3 road. It gets to the point where it gets so rough you can' t
4 even hardly keep your car on it . And I 'm just concerned how
5 much use 700 [inaudible] -- 700 homes -- are going to start
6 using that . Because to get to Greeley, that' s the easiest way
7 you avoid LaSalle [inaudible] railroad tracks . And a lot of
8 people do that . I do. I don' t go through LaSalle . I go
9 straight on Road 43 into Evans so I avoid LaSalle and the
10 railroad tracks .
11 I am concerned that people are going to be moving out
12 here from the city, where they have sufficient supply of water.
13 They want to have a lawn. Do they know how much it' s going to
14 cost to keep a lawn with Weld Central water? That water' s very
15 expensive -- very expensive .
16 I am concerned if you have a horse on 1 . 5 acres or 1 . 9
17 acres or 10 acres, and you allow this horse to graze on that
18 very, very sandy soil , it will be just like the Sahara Desert .
19 There won' t be no grass left . In fact, all the grass that I see
20 out there now is cheat grass; there is very little native grass .
21 I hope all of you Commissioners have visited this
22 site . It' s very, very sandy soil . Whenever these developers
23 open up an area, then we get these blowouts, these big sands .
24 I been down there and I saw sand dunes big as snow drifts . I
25 look at this as a mini-Sahara in potential .
26 They say they' re going to take the horse manure away.
Page 62
1 I think they' re hauling in manure now to keep the sand from
2 blowing. I could be wrong, but they have to do something to
3 keep that from blowing. I 've been down there once when it was
4 blowing -- it was just awful . I lived in this area all my life;
5 as you can see, I live on my grandfather' s homestead. I have
6 observed this area to be prone to lightning. Why, I don' t know.
7 And I know when Bollender brothers owned that land, they had
8 many cattle killed on that property from lightning. And it' s
9 [inaudible] the lightning strikes -- I don' t know if these
10 developers know this . We had a fire this summer where it was
11 lightning -- there was a grass fire; we had lightning
12 [inaudible] we had a grass fire . If it was lightning, I don' t
13 know.
14 I am concerned as a farmer who is trying to make a
15 living out there, and a retired schoolteacher, what this is
16 going to do to the schools, this influx of students into the
17 schools . No home supports - - the taxes coming in from one of
18 these homes will not support the cost to educate these children.
19 I believe the ranchers and the farmers out there who are trying
20 to make a living will be supporting the taxes to support the
21 children to go to school for these developers . In some way, I
22 believe they should be accountable for the increase in
23 enrollments . That' s why I taught at Eaton. All this
24 [inaudible] came in, they changed your class size from 18 to 32 .
25 That' s not education at all , and I can see this happening in
26 RE-1 .
Page 63
1 I really want -- I hope you people have all visited
2 this area. It' s very, very sandy. And people will live in the
3 country, but do they know what it' s like to live in the country
4 with all this sand? There' s a fire hazard of the cheat grass in
5 the summer, and the rattlesnakes -- hundreds of rattlesnakes out
6 there . Do they know this? Are these developers showing these
7 people, or do they just have this nice brochure advertising this
8 thing?
9 I am also concerned about these people using Milton
10 Lake Reservoir for recreation. That water goes through my
11 property to fill the reservoir. I irrigate with it , and most of
12 it is Denver sewer water, coming out of the Platte River. I
13 would not swim in that water -- no way would I swim in that
14 water.
15 I am concerned about people buying big lots, and weed
16 control . Most of these people have no idea, coming out to the
17 country, of control of weeds . But probably there will be no
18 weeds because it will just be like the Sahara Desert
19 [inaudible] . They' ll graze everything down, and then we' ll just
20 [inaudible] . And we as neighbors will have to put up with this .
21 I 'm concerned about the extra taxes for fire
22 protection. The ecology of the area is very fragile . I 'm
23 concerned about the water available . A unit of water from Big
24 T is not enough to supply one house, especially when the quota
25 is at 50 percent . I hope the developers are telling these
26 people how costly this water is going to be, to live out there .
Page 64
1 And as Jane said, they've sold very few homes . They
2 have a permit now for 188 , and they want to -- what, put 500
3 more? Is this thing going to backfire, and these people are
4 going to walk away from it , and we as neighbors have a big
5 problem?
6 I want to thank you for the privilege of talking to
7 you and telling my concerns . I am happy that we live in a
8 country where neighbors who are going to be influenced by this
9 can tell you elected officials how it' s going to affect our
10 lives forever. Thank you.
11 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Thank you. Just a second. Does the
12 Board have any questions? Okay. No questions at this time .
13 All right, is there anyone else who needs to testify before the
14 noon hour because they' re unable to come back at 1 : 30? If so,
15 you need to come up the microphone and state your comments to
16 the Board. If you would first, though, state your name and
17 address for the record.
18 LELIA OSTER: My name is Lelia Oster. I live at 19923
19 Weld County Road 43 , LaSalle .
20 My husband has already addressed many of the concerns .
21 One of my main concerns, as I travel on the roads coming to
22 Greeley, is the traffic that is on the roads currently and will
23 be, when this development is fully built out . There is a high
24 incidence in Weld County of accidents, and fatality accidents,
25 due to the lack of people stopping at stop signs . There was one
26 at the corner of where we live, last year. There has been a
Page 65
I person over the last month flying through that stop sign. We
2 stopped them. They said, "We live in the count -- this is the
3 country. We don' t have to stop. " How many people will have
4 that mentality -- I hope not -- that come into this development?
5 A neighbor that lives at the intersection of Weld
6 County Road 39 and 42 tells me that she observes, daily, 10 to
7 12 people going through the stop sign on Road 42 , across Road
8 39 . Will this happen at 32? We need to be concerned about this
9 additional traffic on these roads .
10 And my other concern, like other people here, is the
11 services that are provided to this development in the form of
12 schools, fire protection and law enforcement . Is there adequate
13 funding for it? The financially strapped farmers and ranchers
14 should not be expected to pick up the tabs for this additional
15 development in the area where we live . Thank you.
16 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Thank you. Any questions? Okay, no
17 questions . All right . At this time I 'm going to recess for --
18 till 1 : 30, and then we' ll come back and start up again at 1 : 30 .
19 Okay? Thank you.
20 (Recess)
21 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: . . . reconvene the hearings for the
22 Board of County Commissioners . I do have one announcement to
23 make . The Clerk to the Board is requesting that anybody who is
24 wishing to speak this afternoon, if you would sign in, please,
25 so we have your name and address on record, and so she has it .
26 That would be great .
Page 66
1 Okay. Mr. Fell , did you want to complete? Did you
2 have any more folks that you' d -- Okay.
3 JIM FELL: Our next speaker, and the next
4 representative from our development , is J. L. Walter. J. L. is
5 a -- has been with Landmark Engineering for a number of years,
6 and that' s where we met him; he did some work for us there . And
7 he has agreed, and he has been willing to be our on-site manager
8 as far as construction is concerned. He also is employed as an
9 engineer for Central Weld Water and has some other communities
10 whom he is associated on either a consulting basis or as the
11 engineer for the community. He is going to speak to you about
12 the water, which came up earlier, and also about dust control ,
13 and anything else that you want to ask him.
14 J. L. WALTER: J. L. Walter, 2318 Osage Court,
15 Loveland, Colorado. As Jim mentioned, I am involved with the
16 water system out there from a couple of standpoints of view.
17 Because I had heard an item come up concerning water, I thought
18 maybe I ' d just give you a little bit of background, where the
19 system is . Because my background is construction management,
20 I 'm looking at it more from the infrastructure standpoint of
21 view.
22 Before the project started out there, the Metro
23 District was asked to participate in a three-million-gallon
24 tank, which has been constructed at the corner of Weld County
25 Road 38 and Weld County Road 39 . From that point, we have
26 extended lines down Weld County Road 39 to the entrance of
Page 67
1 Beebe' s Draw Farms Parkway. That line is a 14-inch water line
2 for about half the distance, and then a 12-inch line from there .
3 It extends into the property with a 10-inch line, and from there
4 we've extended lines, typically 8-inch, throughout the
5 development, basically, which provides us the capabilities of
6 flow for fire flow. The project has been reviewed by the Fire
7 Protection District regarding location of fire hydrants and size
8 of lines and so forth.
9 In order, though, to be able to serve the property
10 adequately, because there is not a lot of elevation difference
11 between the tank and some of the higher levels that the homes
12 would be built on, we did ask the developer, Beebe Draw Farm
13 Metropolitan District , to fund and we've constructed a pump
14 station that does maintain water pressure to the level that' s
15 required. We can serve the higher properties by gravity flow,
16 but because it' s at the low end of the pressure scale, the
17 decision was made that we do need the pump station. So that is
18 also installed and in place .
19 In the future, the eastern portion of the project is
20 at an elevation that it does not require the pump station. So
21 we will be looping another line out of the tank easterly, and
22 then down into the east part of the subdivision, connecting back
23 into the portion that we' re pumping, but providing either
24 pressure-reducing stations or just whatever it takes to equalize
25 the pressures, to take advantage of whichever size that we may
26 need the higher flows .
Page 68
1 So is there any question on the water system?
2 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Does the Board have any questions at
3 this point? Are you finished with your testimony?
4 J. L. WALTER: No, I just wanted to go on maybe with
5 another item then.
6 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Oh, okay. Does anyone have a
7 question at this point? No .
8 J. L. WALTER: As part of this development, what we've
9 done is divide the project up into phases . And one of the
10 things that that does for us is allows the construction of the
11 infrastructure, such that after we have put in the water and
12 then developed the roads and put down the base and asphalt, we
13 can go back and then do a reseeding program along the edges of
14 the roads . And that just minimizes the amount of area that we
15 tear up at any one time . If you've been out to the site, or if
16 you go out to the site, you will see that we have had a
17 reseeding program, and I think it was mentioned in some
18 testimony that we may be fertilizing the area, and that is true .
19 We are going to create as best a situation as we can to allow
20 this seed to have the best chance of growing.
21 But not only are we growing this grass, but we also
22 then turn around and mow this grass, because we want to keep the
23 grass along the roadsides to where it' s not just look like it' s
24 overgrown. We want it to look nice, we want it to be well
25 maintained, and so we not only have a seeding program but also
26 we do try to keep the area mowed.
Page 69
1 One of the questions was concerning the lots
2 themselves . I believe as part of our Covenants, the District
3 can in fact go in and force the homeowners -- if they did not
4 maintain their own lot, we can go in and actually cause them to
5 maintain a grass cover on their lot . The whole intent out there
6 is that there is only like five percent that' s allowed to be
7 reseeded, as far as bluegrass of that type, is -- the idea is to
8 have the natural look, the natural grasses for a drought-
9 resistant, low-growing grass . So the intent is to keep --
10 maintain that .
11 And basically that' s what I have, if you have any
12 questions .
13 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Does the Board have any
14 questions? Glenn.
15 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Mr. Walter, I wasn' t following
16 very clearly. Mr. Fell said -- well , the question is, by whom
17 are you employed?
18 J. L. WALTER: I 'm employed by the Metro District .
19 I 'm also part-time staff engineer for Central Weld County Water
20 District .
21 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Okay. There was my confusion.
22 Earlier I had asked a question about if the Water District was
23 going to put restriction on the use of their water as far as
24 outside of the homes . Can you answer that question?
25 J. L. WALTER: Actually, I think I can. The District
26 is looking at -- the Central Weld County Water District looks at
Page 70
1 it as that they sell taps to the individual homeowner. We --
2 there is an allotment of water that they' re allowed for each one
3 of those -- let' s say, 5/8-inch tap was the typical size for an
4 individual residence . There is a penalty if they do go over
5 that . But as far as having a specific restriction, there is
6 none that I'm aware of .
7 COMMISSIONER VAAD : I 'm not sure I understood.
8 Penalty if they go over what?
9 J. L. WALTER: The allotment for a 5/8-inch tap.
10 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Okay. And that relates to so many
I1 gallons?
12 J. L. WALTER: So many -- yes, so many gallons are
13 allowed for --
14 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Okay. Thank you.
15 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: George .
16 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: I have a follow-up question,
17 that someone in the -- brought it up. The rest of the ground
18 -- I mean, obviously you say five percent' s the maximum they can
19 do in bluegrass or something, and they could water that with
20 this tap. Obviously they' re not going to water the bigger area
21 in there --
22 J. L. WALTER: That' s correct .
23 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: -- especially where the horse is
24 grazing, or something like that . What will they do for water
25 there? I mean, is there any water available or -- I know you
26 were talking about the type of grass you want to grow there that
Page 71
1 won' t take a lot of water, but --
2 J. L. WALTER: Actually, the way that it' s working is
3 that the intent is that the natural grasses not be disturbed.
4 There is -- there are no grazing allowed, there is no grazing
5 allowed on the lots themselves . I think at the Planning
6 Commission meeting it came up -- that question came up. And I
7 actually think there was some confusion there .
8 The intent is that a horseman can bring his horse to
9 the lot if he' s -- if it' s -- you know, certain lots . But, and,
10 obviously you can' t keep a horse from bending over and eating
11 some grass . But it' s not going to be stabled on the lot, in --
12 they' re not allowed to quote "graze" the lot . The intent is for
13 the lot to be natural grass, and because of that, no watering is
14 required.
15 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: So there' s another place in the
16 development for those horses to graze? Or they' re stabled?
17 J. L. WALTER: They will be stabled.
18 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: They' re not allowed to graze
19 anywhere .
20 J. L. WALTER: They' re not allowed to graze on the
21 property.
22 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Okay.
23 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Mr. Walters, are you authorized
24 to represent the Central Weld Water District today?
25 J. L. WALTER: I 'm not here to represent the Central
26 Weld County Water District .
Page 72
1 COMMISSIONER GEILE : So --
2 J. L. WALTER: No, I 'm not . I 'm just giving you
3 information, but I 'm not officially here as Central Weld County
4 Water District .
5 COMMISSIONER GEILE : So the information that you've
6 given us is not -- hasn' t been approved by the Central Weld --
7 J. L. WALTER: Exactly. I 'm -- I need to make that
8 point . I'm here as a representative for the Metro District
9 today.
10 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Another question I had is --
11 again, which fire district will respond --
12 J. L. WALTER: It' s the LaSalle Fire District .
13 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Okay. Do you know if they
14 operate under the Uniform Fire Code?
15 J. L. WALTER: Well , to tell you the truth, I am not
16 sure . I --
17 COMMISSIONER GEILE : The reason I ask that is -- and
18 I apologize, I can' t remember exactly what their response was .
19 But are you required to sprinkle these houses?
20 J. L. WALTER: No.
21 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Put sprinkler systems in them?
22 J. L. WALTER: No.
23 COMMISSIONER GEILE: The other question I had is, do
24 you have all the infrastructure in for the current 180 lots?
25 J. L. WALTER: Well, as I was saying, what we've been
26 doing is phasing the infrastructure so that we don' t tear up any
Page 73
1 more than necessary.
2 COMMISSIONER GEILE : So you do not have the
3 infrastructure in for the current 180 lots .
4 J. L. WALTER: No . No, we do not . We still have, I
5 believe, two phases to go.
6 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Thank you.
7 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Go ahead.
8 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: A quick follow-up question on
9 that water. You said you have a tank.
10 J. L. WALTER: Yes .
11 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Now I assume the line from
12 Central Weld feeds the tank then.
13 J. L. WALTER: That' s correct .
14 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: But to keep your fire flows up,
15 you have that volume of water and the pressure, but is that
16 adequate then for full buildout , or are you going to have to add
17 to that?
18 J. L. WALTER: Again, the pump station and the tank
19 that has been built is adequate for the full buildout . And the
20 pump then -- the pump station' s specifically for the -- what are
21 called the westerly lots, the ones that are at a certain
22 elevation in height . The easterly ones can be served directly
23 by gravity flow.
24 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Okay.
25 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Any other questions? Dale .
26 COMMISSIONER HALL : Just to clarify, then, are you
Page 74
1 saying that you believe that you -- there is enough water
2 available, taps-wise and water capacity, for a full buildout of
3 this project, from Central Weld?
4 J. L. WALTER: The water itself, as far as the
5 development -- and you may be familiar with that, as each tap is
6 brought in, it has to have a unit of CBT water. That' s Central
7 Weld' s system. The developer is required to provide a unit of
8 water for that tap, and has -- right now, I believe, has the
9 water available for the 188 lots . And then after that he will
10 have to come in with the additional water.
11 The way the district set -- is set up, is that as each
12 new block of water is brought in, we basically put it in a
13 hydraulic analysis of the system, and with that it determines
14 what additional improvements may be required. If there are
15 additional improvements required, the developer is required to
16 pay for them.
17 COMMISSIONER HALL: Do you know what CBT water is
18 running now?
19 J. L. WALTER: It' s varying, but at the District we've
20 heard somewhere around 10 , 500 . Basically you can buy it on the
21 open market for about 12 , 500 .
22 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Any other questions? Thank you very
23 much.
24 J. L. WALTER: Thank you.
25 JIM FELL: The next speaker will be from our
26 engineering firm, who handle the engineering during the -- in
Page 75
1 the development of this project . The firm -- excuse me -- the
2 firm is Milestone Engineering, of Wheat Ridge, Colorado --
3 Westminster, I think. I don' t know. Anyway, one of those two
4 towns . And they -- Aaron Thompson is our lead engineer in this
5 project, and he' ll discuss what' s been done in that area.
6 AARON THOMPSON: Aaron Thompson, Milestone
7 Engineering, 8703 Yates Drive, Suite 220 , Westminster, Colorado,
8 80031 .
9 I think we've covered a great deal of the things that
10 I 've knowledge about this project . My primary functions with
11 this project have been to lay out the site, roadways, plots,
12 setbacks, easements, coordinate the other folks that you've seen
13 here today, make sure everybody gets everything done that they
14 need to do, as well as engineer the roads and drainage
15 facilities for the site.
16 We've worked for the past three years on both Filings,
17 with the County staff . There' s been a lot of catching up to do
18 from the late 80 ' s on the change of zone requirements, and we've
19 worked closely with Public Works and Planning staff to make sure
20 that this project meets those requirements and that we satisfy
21 everything that they requested. And to date, Beebe Draw Metro
22 District has done what the Planning and Public Works departments
23 have asked them to do, and there' s always been a willingness to
24 make that happen.
25 So, the only other thing I have - - and I don' t know if
26 this is the appropriate time to do it . I did note in the
Page 76
1 Resolution a couple of items that I' d like to address, and I
2 don' t know if this would be the appropriate time to do that .
3 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Not at this time, no.
4 AARON THOMPSON: Okay. Other than that, I'm open for
5 any questions that you might have for me.
6 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Does the Board have any
7 questions? Michael .
8 COMMISSIONER GEILE : How many miles of road are in
9 this project?
10 AARON THOMPSON: Everybody' s been asking that this
11 morning, and I did my best assessing as I could over the lunch
12 hour. I don' t have cumulative roadway totals with me, but I
13 believe Filing 1 is in the neighborhood of eight miles, and
14 Filing 2 , which is before you today, to be in the neighborhood
15 of 20, 21 miles . Excuse me, pardon me -- that' s cumulative .
16 Filing 2 would be in the neighborhood of about 13 -- 13 miles .
17 COMMISSIONER GEILE : 13 miles?
18 AARON THOMPSON: Yes, sir.
19 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Beebe Draw Parkway, which will be
20 an arterial --
21 AARON THOMPSON: Yes .
22 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Arterial being what? Full
23 length?
24 AARON THOMPSON: No, actually, to date, it' s actually
25 a widened two-lane road. It does have sufficient right-of-way
26 width to become a four-lane facility if need be -- it' s got a
Page 77
1 hundred-foot right of way. The majority of Beebe Draw Parkway
2 is built in [inaudible] to date - - in fact , it does go all the
3 way out to the reservoir to date .
4 COMMISSIONER GEILE: Where do the two parkways, the
5 two arterials, Beebe Draw Parkway and Pelican Lake Road -- where
6 would they -- where do they intersect the county roads?
7 AARON THOMPSON: Pelican Lake Road will intersect
8 about halfway, about the midpoint of Weld County 32 on the
9 southern portion of the property, and then it runs all the way
10 up to Beebe Draw Parkway. The other entrances to the project
11 will be Beebe Draw Parkway, off 39, and the northern entrance
12 off of 38, which is more towards the center of the project, off
13 road 38 to the north.
14 COMMISSIONER GEILE : What it all boils down to is the
15 County would have 13 miles to maintain and also to remove snow
16 and --
17 AARON THOMPSON: About 20, 21 miles .
18 COMMISSIONER GEILE : 21 miles .
19 AARON THOMPSON: That' s correct .
20 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Thank you.
21 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Follow-up to that, could I?
22 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Sure .
23 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Do you have any reason to
24 dispute our Public Works' estimate of where the traffic will go?
25 You think it' ll go on the roads in the numbers that they -- or
26 did you hear that?
Page 78
1 AARON THOMPSON: Yes, I did, and no, I don' t have any
2 reason to dispute it . My firm did not complete the traffic
3 analysis . Another gentleman by the name of Matthew Dellitch
4 completed the traffic report for the Metro District . I 've
5 reviewed it and been in meetings with Public Works, and as far
6 as I can tell , it meets all the requirements and is a good
7 study. And in actuality the public improvement agreements are
8 based on that study [inaudible] .
9 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Glenn.
10 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Mr. Thompson, I 'm not that
11 familiar with the layout . I 've driven around the perimeter of
12 the area. Is the endpoint of any surface drainage at Milton
13 Reservoir?
14 AARON THOMPSON: No. We have done -- we have
15 coordinated all the drainage facilities to be contained on-site,
16 and they' re all retention facilities as opposed to detention
17 facilities . For clarification, that just simply means that the
18 stormwater that' s collected in them will not be discharged to
19 any exterior waterway.
20 COMMISSIONER VAAD: It almost seems kind of silly
21 talking about it in the middle of a drought, but sometimes we
22 get a rain.
23 AARON THOMPSON: You never know, we've had some big
24 rains .
25 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: It does rain. It has .
26 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Any other questions? All right .
Page 79
1 Thank you very much.
2 JIM FELL: That concludes the presentation by our
3 consultants . There were a couple of questions raised that I
4 might like to answer. One was regarding the water. We acquired
5 our water in the open market, and money that we've given to
6 Central Weld. And that' s what we will do in the future . There
7 is no question the price of water has gone up a great deal since
8 we started acquiring water, which has caused an increase in the
9 price of lots . And that' s what could happen in the future if
10 water continues to increase . It would be true with us, and I 'm
11 sure it would be true with any other developer that is having to
12 -- as I understand it, any place Central Weld serves, the water
13 has to be given to them before they' ll serve it , except for
14 individual homes that are being built .
15 We had no problem getting the water that we have . And
16 we have paid different prices for it, but the water was always
17 available; it was a matter of price . And after we got our first
18 188 lots, 188 units, and I didn' t want to buy any more water,
19 and the water price started going up, I received numerous phone
20 calls, two, three times a week, somebody wanting to sell us
21 water, because we were a known buyer and we paid for it when we
22 subdivided.
23 I have not been in the market for a while, and I told
24 the people at Northern Water Conservancy that I wouldn' t be but
25 I ' d let them know when we were again, because they have a list
26 of people that they furnish to people who are trying to sell
Page 80
1 water, and we were on the list .
2 I don' t know if you have any other questions that I
3 might answer, but I ' ll be glad to try.
4 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Are there any other questions at
5 this time?
6 COMMISSIONER GEILE : I just had one on the
7 Metropolitan District . I can' t remember if the Council -- maybe
8 you can refresh my memory. But isn' t the limitation 50 mills
9 the Metropolitan District can pass on to the people that
10 [inaudible] live in the District, or is it 25 mills? I can' t
11 remember.
12 LEE MORRISON: I don' t recall the precise number. I
13 think 50 . But there is a limit to what --
14 COMMISSIONER GEILE: There is a limit .
15 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: I think it' s 50 .
16 JIM FELL: I think that 50 is the limit . My last
17 report [inaudible] .
18 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Have you structured anything
19 whereby you' re passing on any of those costs through the mill
20 levy to the people who are purchasing property out there, or --
21 And if you have, what is the mill levy that you've structured,
22 if you can tell me?
23 JIM FELL: 40 is the mill levy that we have now.
24 COMMISSIONER GEILE : It' s what?
25 JIM FELL: 40 .
26 COMMISSIONER GEILE : 40 mills?
Page 81
1 JIM FELL: We've paid for all of the infrastructure so
2 far, and as I mentioned, I think -- I don' t know whether I
3 mentioned it today or not, but we mentioned it the other day --
4 we have a $2 million bond issue . It was issued early, so that
5 we had monies to start with. And we have a $400, 000 loan from
6 one of our developers, one of the people [inaudible] in the
7 development .
8 We have a provision in our agreement with the
9 development company that, in the event the District needs funds,
10 they can call on the development company to furnish - - we had a
11 fund, we have a fee, a development fee, right now of $16, 000 a
12 lot . But we have a development fee that ' s paid from the
13 developer, when they sell the lot, to the Metropolitan District .
14 We can call on future advances on those fees, without
15 limitation, no interest , and no re-payback. In essence, what' s
16 happening is that the developer is contributing money for the
17 Metropolitan District when they need it . At the present time,
18 we have requested 20 such fees, or $320, 000 . This is being used
19 primarily - - and the reason we needed it -- was to build the
20 marina. Above the land, our fees have covered the expenses that
21 we had in the various developments -- in the various
22 infrastructures .
23 We have no reason to believe that we have a problem.
24 For one thing, unlike some developers, we didn' t go out and
25 develop everything at the same time and incur a great debt .
26 That' s why we' re developing in phases, so that we get paid for
Page 82
1 it as we go along. And so far we've been able to do it, and
2 everybody seems to be happy.
3 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Is your plan that after -- let' s
4 say the project is completed, that the Metropolitan District
5 goes away? Or how does that evolve?
6 JIM FELL: We' re treating the Metropolitan District,
7 and we intend to treat it, as a perpetual District . We feel
8 that it can perform some services for the benefit of the
9 homeowners a better way than doing it through a Homeowners
10 Association. In other words, their ability to tax and pay for
11 things, we think, is more equal than for assessments of
12 different types and then trying to find and collect from the
13 homeowners . This way, it is a tax lien, if there is a lien.
14 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: A follow-up on the water. Just
15 a little different issue on the water. Someone else mentioned
16 the water that goes into the lake being something that he
17 wouldn' t swim in. Any conce --
18 JIM FELL: We don' t put any water in --
19 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Well , I mean the water that
20 comes to the lake -- that the water that is in the lake is --
21 have you any concern with the water that' s there, that there' s
22 any problem with it? Have you tested it, or --
23 JIM FELL: This year, since there -- as you all are
24 aware, there has been a drought and that many of the lakes have
25 disappeared -- I mean, a number of large ones -- there still is
26 a good supply of water in Milton -- not anything like it would
Page 83
1 normally be at this stage of the year. But it' s -- so there
2 wasn' t any -- we didn' t have any need for testing the water for
3 swimming or anything, because there wasn' t any -- there weren' t
4 people out there to use it . We -- once we are -- add more
5 people and they' re going to intend to swim in it, if they do
6 intend, we' ll be running regular tests, just like you would any
7 other lake or swimming situations .
8 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Okay.
9 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Any other questions at this time?
10 COMMISSIONER HALL: Yes . Mr. Fell , in the Ordinance
11 that requires the applicant to explain how this use fits in with
12 the compatibility of the existing and future development
13 throughout the area, and also how it would fit in with the
14 development of the -- as projected by comprehensive plans and
15 master plans of affected municipalities, and that it' s
16 compatible with the Comprehensive Plan -- do you have any
17 information on that?
18 JIM FELL: I really wasn' t involved in the original
19 PUD. A gentleman named Morris Burke applied for that . And I
20 was around while it was being done, and I was -- you know, I was
21 aware of what was being done . But I don' t know exactly what the
22 Commissioners requested at that time to satisfy the compliance
23 with the various plans . But I do know that obviously, since
24 they passed the PUD, that they were satisfied that it did meet
25 those different requirements . But I'm sorry, I can' t answer
26 specifically what it is .
Page 84
1 We feel that there is going to be -- there is
2 development, and we -- in the general area. And we realize
3 we' re out further than some of it . But we also know that we can
4 make a very attractive development .
5 The terrain out there is surprising. Lots of people
6 would think of it as being flat , and actually there is a wide
7 variance in the elevations throughout it . It rolls, it makes
8 for beautiful home sites . And the people that are living there
9 and, as near as we can tell , are very happy, and there -- as our
10 marketing man mentioned -- there are people out there all the
11 time and people buying new lots and buying homes .
12 I can' t answer specifically your question.
13 COMMISSIONER HALL: Well, in your own estimation then,
14 do you believe it' s compatible with the Comprehensive Plan in
15 the surrounding area?
16 JIM FELL: I believe it' s compatible with the
17 Comprehensive Plan. The Comprehensive Plan had one element that
18 I 'm sure it wasn' t compatible with, and that was that any
19 development should be attached to a community where there was
20 services provided by the community. And we had a problem in
21 answering that .
22 Our answer, of course, is obviously that we have no
23 way of moving that lake . And the lake is a very important part
24 of this development and will be a very important part of the
25 lifestyle of the people who are living out there . And that is
26 unique -- there aren' t that many places that have this size of
Page 85
1 reservoir upon which to have a recreation facility. When this
2 reservoir is full, it' s about the size of Cherry Creek Dam, and
3 bigger than a number of what ' s considered large lakes .
4 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Any other questions? Could you tell
5 me where the closest -- how close you are to a municipality or
6 to another large subdivision?
7 JIM FELL: We' re about six miles east of Platteville
8 and we' re eight miles, I believe, south of the southerly point
9 of Greeley.
10 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Thank you. All right, thank
11 you. All right . This is a public hearing. Is there anyone in
12 the audience at this time that would like to come forward and
13 speak to the Board regarding the issue at hand? If so, if you
14 would please come to the microphone and state your name and
15 address for the record.
16 DONITA PARANTO: Good afternoon. My name is Donita
17 Paranto. I live at 16505 Essex Road North, Platteville, Colorado
18 80651 .
19 We were the fourth family to move out to Pelican Lake
20 Ranch. We do absolutely love it . We worked for a year and a
21 half for an acreage, because for five years, my ten-year-old
22 daughter every night said her prayers, that she would love to
23 have a pony. Excuse me, I 'm sorry (crying) . And we worked and
24 we scrimped and we saved. And we found out about Pelican Lake,
25 and we were fortunate enough to be able to buy a lot out there
26 with an existing home .
Page 86
1 We don' t want to suck anybody dry. We' re here to
2 contribute to the community. We' re not here to take. We want
3 to be part of the big community. We' re here to help. And as
4 far as the -- you know, we wanted to raise our children -- we
5 have two children, a ten-year-old and an eight-year-old -- with
6 good American ethics -- a good work ethic . Let them enjoy the
7 land, let them enjoy the nature; they catch toads, they catch
8 lizards, they run, they ride their bike . And we weren' t able to
9 do that in the city.
10 And I feel that - - you know, our tax base is not an
11 agricultural one. We' re, as far as I can figure, about five and
12 a half times higher tax base . Everything the developer said is
13 true -- we' re trying to, you know -- so we don' t have to go
14 into, you know, the outlaying communities . We' re talking about
15 our own snow removal, we talk about, you know, the lifeguard at
16 the pool .
17 And that' s one of the reasons that they did decide to
18 put in a swimming pool , was because of the swimming issue on the
19 lake . The lake is for windsurfing and sailing and a little
20 paddleboat -- we bought Dad a little paddleboat for Father' s
21 Day, that we've enjoyed out on the lake many weekends . And
22 that' s all I really have to say, is that we do love it out
23 there. We' re fortunate to be there . And we want to be part of
24 the community.
25 And I did a little math, and I figure that since we --
26 we've lived there six months -- we have invested almost $40, 000
Page 87
1 into the surrounding communities -- trees, landscape material ,
2 food, movies . And the majority of people that I talk to in
3 Platteville and LaSalle, which is where I do most of our
4 shopping -- of course, and they' re retailers, they have, you
5 know, a different interest, but they' re all very happy that
6 we' re there . Does anybody have any questions?
7 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Does the Board have any questions at
8 this time? No. Thank you very --
9 DONITA PARANTO: Thank you very much.
10 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Thank you. Okay. Is there anyone
11 else who would like to come forward at this time?
12 GARY DOERING: Hi, I 'm Gary Doering, 3221 Belmont, in
13 Evans, Colorado. I don' t have a house out there yet, but I did
14 buy some property out there . Reason being was, one of the
15 questions came up earlier about the affordability of a place to
16 live where you can buy some acreage in this area . My wife and
17 I also looked for a year and a half, two years, trying to find
18 two acres, and were not able to find anything we could afford
19 until we found Pelican Lake Ranch. They' re easily $30 , 000 for
20 two acres under anything that we looked at between this area and
21 the Fort Collins area. So the question of affordability is a
22 matter of degree. Yes, it' s not cheap housing, but at least
23 it' s something that we could get into and get into some acreage
24 on.
25 I can appreciate the neighboring people out there' s
26 viewpoint . If I lived out there, I probably wouldn' t want a big
Page 88
I subdivision going in right next to me either. However, I have
2 bought some land out there . I do hope that these plans are
3 allowed to go through, because I have a lot riding on it .
4 One of the questions brought up was -- or one of the
5 gentlemen earlier brought up the subjects of weed control,
6 snakes, and sand out there . I don' t think there' s any of us
7 that have bought lots or moved out there that aren' t aware of
8 these problems, because the developers pretty much -- I mean,
9 you can see it' s obviously sand. They have even given us
10 information on rattlesnakes . On weeds, they have suggested that
11 they have checked into certain mixes of grasses that will grow
12 better out there .
13 In my opinion, I think the developers are doing
14 everything they can to make everything ecologically safe and to
15 disturb it as little as possible . I 'm sure it' s a big
16 development that they' re doing. As far as I can see, they' re
17 doing everything possible, and I was really impressed with their
18 thoroughness . That' s all .
19 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Thank you. Any questions?
20 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Yeah.
21 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Yes, go ahead.
22 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Yeah, the land that you
23 purchased, is it in the current 188 --
- 24 GARY DOERING: It' s in Filing 1,
25 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Filing 1?
26 GARY DOERING: The First Filing, yes .
Page 89
1 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Okay. Thank you.
2 DAVID SEILER: My name is David Seiler. I live at
3 1975 28th Avenue, Number 35, Greeley, 80634 . And someone in
4 your group here has my card. I am here representing the School
5 District . I notice that there have been some questions
6 regarding us providing services to this development .
7 I will start out with telling you that Morris Burke
8 came to the School District early on. The first document that
9 I have is in the summer of 1985, so this thing has been going
10 through the Planning Department . I don' t know how many people
11 that are still in the Planning Department are still there -- I
12 think Don is, [inaudible] . But it has, it' s been going on for
13 a long period of time .
14 When we talked about providing -- that was before it
15 became something that was in the law, or whatever, but we
16 negotiated. We have -- if the Second Filing goes through, the
17 School District would have a title to 36 acres on -- kind of in
18 the -- about where 41 would be and on Road 38 . I believe it was
19 in -- on that drawing that I saw when I came in. That has not
20 [inaudible] because Filing 2 hasn' t been approved yet .
21 Morris Burke, who was the first one to talk to us, did
22 everything that he said he was going to do. Mr. Fell has done
23 everything. I mean, we asked him to provide a place for
24 children to congregate before and after they' re picked up by the
25 bus, and to widen over there by their administration building so
26 we could take our largest bus in there and make that turnaround.
Page 90
1 They did do that . We are servicing that by bus both morning and
2 afternoon.
3 And right now, if that thing is completely built out
4 at the ratio that we have reason to believe it would be, it
5 would take about a two-track school -- elementary school -- and
6 that' s a K-5 . That would be two classes throughout . And about
7 six classrooms of -- at the middle school, and about six
8 classrooms at the high school . And that ' s how we look at it
9 when it would be completely built out .
10 At the rate that they' re going at this point, 60 --
11 about -- they were talking about -- I heard a sales figure of 60
12 lots next year. If that happens, that would be about two
13 classrooms, and if -- that' s if all the kids went to one
14 classroom. Those children are supported by Gilcrest Elementary
15 in Gilcrest .
16 We did change our boundaries a year and a half ago,
17 and it was actually split . The old boundary split the property,
18 so all the elementary children will go to Gilcrest . It' s about
19 8-1/2 miles if you go around, down 39 and across 42 . And to
20 Gilcrest is about the same distance as to Platteville, and about
21 the same distance to LaSalle, which is -- the middle school
22 children will go. And then the high school children will go to
23 Valley High School . And that would take about -- if all kids
24 were in one classroom, it would be - - at 60 -- for 60 homes per
25 year, it would be about -- that would work out to two
26 classrooms .
Page 91
1 So far they haven' t done that, but we -- probably the
2 developments in LaSalle and surely Platteville will cause us to
3 have -- to ask people for a bond issue before this particular
4 piece of property would do. We plan to sell that 36 acres
5 because it does not have [inaudible] . We had a lot of testimony
6 this morning, talking about sewage . And I don' t know of a
7 septic tank big enough for a school, so those -- we would sell
8 that property, use that for purchase of other property somewhere
9 else in the district .
10 That' s the plan at this point . Do you have any
11 questions?
12 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Questions?
13 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Well , he answered my question.
14 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Questions? The Gilcrest Elementary
15 School, and the middle school and the high school that you
16 talked about -- are they near or at capacity right now?
17 DAVID SEILER: Gilcrest is not . The middle school in
18 LaSalle, the Weld County Middle School , is -- would be able to
19 handle several years of the 60-home capacity, and the high
20 school would be able to handle it with no increase .
21 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: So you' re not anticipating -- the
22 School District isn' t anticipating charging any type of impact
23 fee to the developer?
24 DAVID SEILER: That' s already been done with the
25 property that we -- that we --
26 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: The 34 acres?
Page 92
1 DAVID SEILER: The 36 acres .
2 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. So the 36 acres is for -- 34
3 or 36 acres, whatever it is -- is for a building site. But
4 you' re not anticipating charging any impact fee .
5 DAVID SEILER: At this point -- at this point in time,
6 that was the agreement, that we would take the property at that
7 point and [inaudible] . We have an impact fee for other
8 properties but not for that particular site .
9 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: So -- and, given the fact that the
10 36 acres -- I thought it was 34 , but 36 acres -- has no sewage
11 available to it, and you' re planning on selling it, what do you
12 think the value of that 36 acres is?
13 DAVID SEILER: At this point in time, by the time we
14 get it and by the time we would sell it, I don' t know -- I mean,
15 we' re talking -- it could be $10 , 000 an acre, it could be
16 $20, 000 an acre .
17 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Given that it' s being set aside for
18 a school site -- it' s not a residential site, and it can' t be
19 used as such, can it?
20 MONICA MICA: Let me put the sites on the overhead so
21 everybody knows what we' re talking about and how it' s defined.
22 That' ll help. And then I ' ll answer that .
23 Monica Mica . The area that' s under discussion is the
24 brown area at the very top of the map . And there wasn' t any
25 inclusion in the original Change of Zone for any commercial
26 types of activities . So this, actually, at this point in time,
Page 93
1 is still -- it' s dedicated for future public use . If they
2 wanted to do something else, there would be another Change of
3 Zone or an amendment to the Change of Zone to include for
4 commercial or industrial type of activities on there .
5 It' s also listed for joint use with the school
6 district and also law enforcement activities . And I believe
7 that there' s two different agreements that address that same
8 issue . Mr. Fell can probably give you some more specifics on
9 those agreements .
10 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: I don' t need you to answer that
11 right now. So the uses permitted on this site would either be
12 for a school or for law enforcement .
13 MONICA MICA: At this point in time, that' s correct .
14 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: And I just want to make sure that
15 I 'm c -- hearing your testimony correct . This is my
16 interpretation of what you said, is that the additional 536
17 homes virtually would have little if no impact on the School
18 District .
19 DAVID SEILER: It would -- we would have [inaudible]
20 input . Before that was built out, we would need buildings in
21 other -- in the other towns -- that we would build large enough
22 to cover these children.
23 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: And the way you' re anticipating that
24 you would handle the impact from these 536 homes, Phase 2 , at
25 buildout, is through a bond issue? Okay. Thank you. Are there
26 any other questions? Thanks . Is there anyone else from the
Page 94
1 public that would like to come forward at this time and speak to
2 the board on this topic?
3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Can I add something regarding
4 the schools?
5 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: At this time -- weren' t you with the
6 group earlier? At this time we' re having a public hearing. The
7 applicant or the representatives will have opportunity to rebut
8 or make any comments regarding some of the things that come up
9 in the public hearing. Okay. Is there anyone else who would
10 like to come forward at this time? If so, if you would please
11 come up to the microphone and state your name and address . And
12 if there' s anyone else who would like to talk, if you' d prepare
13 yourselves and maybe come up closer to the microphone so we can
14 get you up there and get your comments .
15 KARL JEPSEN II : I don' t know if anybody' s ever
16 prepared for this .
17 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: If you would please state your name
18 and address for the record first .
19 KARL JEPSEN II : My name' s Karl A. Jepsen the second.
20 We reside at 20121 Road 42 , LaSalle, Colorado . We have a half-
21 section, or a little more than a half-section of property that' s
22 to the east of Mrs . Cornelius' s property at 2365 [inaudible] .
23 I 've got one question about that too. If -- we were
24 up during the noon hour going through some of the Filing here .
25 And there was this odd deal we noticed in something, in the Land
26 Conveyance, the Jepsen Order of Taking. [inaudible] know
Page 95
1 anything about or what it refers to, or -- in ' 85 . It' s Greek
2 to me . We've been there and we haven' t heard [inaudible] --
3 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Do you have a copy of the
4 information you' re asking this question about?
5 KARL JEPSEN II : Yes .
6 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Perhaps you could get it to
7 the County Attorney and we' ll give him the opportunity to review
8 it .
9 KARL JEPSEN I I : I don' t know what' s going on with
10 that .
11 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: And he may not be able to answer it
12 right now. He needs the opportunity to look at that and we' ll
13 see if he can get an answer.
14 KARL JEPSEN II : There was one little deal that we did
15 with FRICO once where they needed a little more space around the
16 -- an oil and gas pipe running across our ditch, but that
17 certainly wasn' t 38 -- 36 acres . This was about a hundred feet
18 or so that we allowed them, a hundred-few feet so they could
19 drive around this pipeline . So I don' t know what the heck that
20 refers to, what' s going on there . It' s totally beyond us .
21 I 'm concerned about the septic tanks and all that
22 stuff out in that sand, and a lot of other concerns too. I 'm
23 probably going to go over some old territory. All these septic
24 tanks with trenches 85 feet long -- that ' s -- all that effluent
25 or sewage water or whatever you want to call it, wastewater,
26 once it gets through that four foot of soil , it' s going to keep
Page 96
1 going zip, straight down to the groundwater somewhere. That' s
2 just going to slow it down a little bit or reduce some of the
3 pathogen load. What' s it going to do with the chemicals or
4 nitrogens or phosphorous in the water? How is that going to
5 contaminate everything else that ' s out there?
6 It' s beyond me why you' d want to put all those out in
7 such a pristine area and have that kind of a housing load, or
8 whatever you' d want to call it . I heard total there' s going to
9 be 702 houses -- is that right? 536 and 188?
10 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: 724 --
11 KARL JEPSEN II : 724?
12 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Phase 2 .
13 KARL JEPSEN II : Phase 2 . That -- to me that' s just
14 the start of the septic tank loading on there, that we've got to
15 have -- like you were talking about, for the School District .
16 I know that Mr. - - excuse me for not getting --
17 DAVID SEILER: Seiler.
18 KARL JEPSEN II : Seiler -- his name right -- talks
19 about , well , they' ll sell the land in the future . But the
20 Valley District, they've got schools in Platteville, LaSalle,
21 and Gilcrest . Why wouldn' t they have up here a school for those
22 - - or a middle school or grade school for all these kids?
23 There' ll be more than 60 kids there ultimately. And they need
24 some sort of a waste treatment plant for that, and that would
25 just be adding to the load.
26 Then you've got the marina down there . You' d need
Page 97
1 septic tanks or something for that . You need maybe septic tanks
2 or rest stops along the 19 miles of trail . That' d be a lot of
3 riding if you get it all . vAnd the stables -- there' d be tanks
4 for that, or for the arena. What about those areas? What' s the
5 total number of septic tanks that' s going to be out there?
6 And for the RV area that they were talking about, or
7 proposing, what kind of holding tanks do you need for an RV
8 area, to prevent problems, or what are you going to do with
9 that? And for the golf course that' s proposed -- I don' t know
10 anything about golf . All I do is find golf balls out in my
11 field from my neighbors that play. What do you do, or what kind
12 of a clubhouse, or what do you do there for septic tanks? I
13 think they' re getting up to maybe 800 or more septic tanks? Or
14 larger than that?
15 The School District - - no one can say right now that
16 the School District is going to build, ultimately, a school out
17 there with the other schools, or other building going on in
18 Platteville and in that area, and whatever goes on in the rest
19 of the School District . You can' t say exactly what' s going to
20 happen five, ten, fifteen years from now, where that' s going to
21 end up.
22 I 'm also concerned about the marina. They were
23 talking about lifeguards . That was one of my concerns . Boating
24 out there -- what' s the response time of the Fire Department to
25 get to this marina from LaSalle? Or does the Fire Department
26 have a dive team or a rescue team, if they need to rescue
Page 98
1 somebody? Does the Sheriff' s Department have a dive team or a
2 rescue team if they need to rescue somebody? What' s their
3 response time? How does that all work out, or work into this?
4 Somebody said that they've got five cruisers out from
5 the Sheriff' s Department covering all the county for eight-hour
6 shifts . Is one of the five going to be close? Or are they
7 going to be trained in water rescue? Or how does that work?
8 [inaudible] mentioned concerns about the lake water.
9 Milton Lake gets its water from between -- or -- between
10 Brighton and Platteville somewhere -- I'm not quite sure of the
11 answer to that . A few years ago in the TRIBUNE they described
12 that as one of the most polluted stretches of water on the
13 Platte River, and that' s where it goes -- or where it comes
14 from. Well , who' s going to be testing that water? Is that a
15 County liability? Is the County Health Department going to be
16 looking at that every day, or every week? Or who' s going to be
17 checking the inflows during the summer into Lake Christina, and
18 what' s going on there? How is that going to be handled?
19 A year ago, I think, in Iowa, somebody was -- had a
20 celebration out in somebody' s cow pasture, where they had steaks
21 and stuff . And people got sick from E coli . I guess they
22 discovered, if my memory serves me correctly, that it was from
23 the manure that was out in the pasture . While I 'm sure they
24 won' t be getting cow manure out here, there' s a lot of cattle
25 along the rivers; there' s a lot of cattle along the Platte
26 Valley Ditch and the Milton Field Ditch that enter this . They
Page 99
1 cross it every day, go in and out . So what' s the liability of
2 the landowners upstream? What ' s the liability of everybody
3 else? The ditch companies -- what' s the liability of the
4 Metropolitan District? Where do we end or start there?
5 I ' m concerned about our cattle down there, too. And
6 the County' s got leash laws . If anybody has a dog out in the
7 County that' s not on a leash, how am I going to tell what ' s
8 going on when I live several miles away from our cattle down
9 there during the summer? How will I protect our cattle from
10 this kind of a problem, the dogs running free?
11 I 'm worried about children being down there. We've
12 got some small ponds, too, on our property, and we have a hunt
13 club that goes down in there and hunts ducks and geese in the
14 fall and wintertime on these ponds . So I don' t know how all
15 that relates or what you' re going to do about that .
16 They were talking -- back to the septic tanks, I made
17 some notes today about that . I don' t know -- they' re probably
18 kind of incoherent now. If I use ag chemicals on my property,
19 some of them have to have groundwater tables below 20 , 25 feet .
20 I don' t know about septic tanks or what the limits are for that .
21 And I think you've got to look at that , worry about all these
22 things that I cannot see that they' re talking about today.
23 I 'm worried about the size of the taps for this -- I
24 guess you said 5/8-inch taps . I think that' s about all that I
25 was thinking about .
26 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Thank you. Does the Board
Page 100
1 have any questions? Okay. Not at this time . Thank you very
2 much. Thanks for your comment .
3 KARL JEPSEN II : If you could address that other issue
4 --
- 5 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Yes . Have you had the opportunity to
6 review that, or do you need some more time, Lee?
7 LEE MORRISON: It appears to me -- and this is an
8 exhibit that I believe was in the original Change of Zone . It
9 has to do with an agreement with FRICO for use of the reservoir,
10 if I recall . I don' t believe that the reference to 36 acres --
11 it has to do with an area north of the reservoir and along the
12 canal . I think the reference to 36 acres is to the entire area,
13 and what they call the Jepsen Order of Taking is only a small
14 piece of that . Now, I don' t read that to say that the whole 36
15 acres is part of this -- part of your - - part of the Order of
16 Taking. So, if you recall that there was some agreement with
17 FRICO relative to the ditch or the reservoir --
18 KARL JEPSEN II : Just for about a hundred feet around
19 the [inaudible] --
20 LEE MORRISON: I think it' s done as a reference point,
21 not to say it' s 36 acres . I think it' s a piece of the 36 acres,
22 but it' s only mentioned as a reference . That' s the best I can
23 read this . Now, obviously, if you still own it, we' ll look into
24 it . But I don' t read that as taking 36 acres all from the
25 Jepsen Order of Taking. Okay? Now, I think you should take it
26 to your own attorney and check into it, but I don' t think that' s
Page 101
1 what it' s saying.
2 KARL JEPSEN II : It' s completely got us baffled, so --
3 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. All right . Thank you.
4 KARL JEPSEN II : We just saw that today, so --
5 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Any other comments?
6 LEE MORRISON: Well , since we' re on the record with
7 it, I need to put it in the record we can make a copy of it for
8 you so you have it . That will have to go in our records, since
9 we --
10 KARL JEPSEN II : It' s in your packet that was --
11 LEE MORRISON: It' s in the packet?
12 KARL JEPSEN II : It' s in that big volume there .
13 LEE MORRISON: In this? In this case?
14 KARL JEPSEN II : Yes, that' s where we got that from.
15 LEE MORRISON: Oh, okay. All right . Then I ' ll let
16 you take it back.
17 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Thank you very much. All
18 right . Is there anyone else who would like to come forward at
19 this time? If so, please come to the microphone . And please
20 state your name and address for the record first, and then your
21 comments to the Board.
22 JANET FRAZER: My name is Janet Belinda Frazer, and my
23 farm address is 18975 Weld County Road 43 . I own the 320-acre
24 farm that is on the corner of Road 40 and Road 43 , which is --
25 the southern part of my land is a half mile north of this
26 proposed site . I 'm the fourth generation on the land. I live
Page 102
1 part-time in the farmhouse that was built in 1918 by my
2 grandparents, where my mother was born, where I grew up. I am
3 determined to keep my farm a working farm, and my son is
4 committed to that same purpose .
5 So there are certain points I would like to cover. I
6 definitely am in total agreement with the letters to you from my
7 neighbors, Jane Evans Cornelius and from Lelia and Jim and
8 Oster. I strongly object to the request for 536 additional home
9 sites to the Pelican Lake Ranch. In case any of you have not
10 seen the informational soft-sell approach, this is the ad that
11 was in the Denver Post, if any of you would like to see it,
12 regarding the Pelican Lake Ranch.
13 The lowest part of my farm is a 30-acre portion of dry
14 land in the southwest corner of my farm, which is a half-mile
15 from this proposed site . It has never been irrigated, and
16 because of the poor soil, it has been affected by the irrigation
17 pond of my neighbor, which is about a fourth-mile away. His
18 pond for irrigation purposes was not sealed properly, and so
19 because of that, for the first time ever, there are trees
20 growing in this 30-acre portion of dryland field.
21 I am very concerned about the number and density of
22 the septic tanks in that area, because I know very much how what
23 goes on a fourth-mile away, a half-mile away, several miles
24 away, can affect my land, not only on the surface, not to
25 mention underground water.
26 As far as the impact on Road 43 , I 'm very surprised
Page 103
1 and consider it tremendously inaccurate planning, not to have a
2 traffic analysis on Road 43 . If you leave the Pelican Lake
3 Ranch and go to Greeley, you can go north on Road 39 -- it' s
4 been mentioned before . And you have to go through LaSalle,
5 which has a lot of switching areas for trains . There is an
6 alternate route you can go, on -- north on Road 39 to Road 44 ,
7 then go west to Peckham, then go north on Highway 85, but that
8 adds a lot of time and a lot of miles . The fastest way to leave
9 Pelican Ranch and get to Greeley is to go north on Road 39 to
10 Road 38, then go two miles east, take a left, and it' s a
11 straight shot, approximately eight miles north to Evans . There
12 you can enter Highway 85 .
13 Already there is a lot of traffic on Road 43 , from
14 Longmont Foods Turkey Farm, water trucks, oil and gas trucks .
15 With an additional 536 homes there, the impact is going to be
16 tremendous on that County Road. It is a dirt road.
17 Talking about the use of the marina and the water in
18 the Milton Reservoir, I personally have taken sailing lessons
19 myself . And one of the features advertised here is sailing
20 lessons in the marina. As part of the Red Cross beginning
21 sailing course, you turn over your sailboat, you get into the
22 water, and you test your survivability. So people are going to
23 be in that water if they take sailing lessons in that marina.
24 And we have already addressed the issue of the quality of the
25 water.
26 On my farm there are eight oil and gas wells .
Page 104
1 Unfortunately, mineral rights are owned by the Union Pacific
2 Railroad. But this is an area where there are lots of oil and
3 gas wells on the surrounding farms . Is it wise to have a
4 density of 724 homes in an area with a massive amount of
5 underground oil and gas pipelines?
6 It ' s been brought up that there' s no commitment for
7 additional water taps . How are they going to deal with this
8 disturbed topsoil and get it into a good stand of native
9 grasses? How are they going to water this, when today the sand
10 that' s -- the soil there has been aptly described as wind-blown
11 fine sand, in an area which, without irrigation, is the great
12 American desert?
13 I have a question about my right to farm. How is Weld
14 County going to protect my right to farm, with this town of over
15 700 homes half a mile away? There is annual spraying, crop-
16 dusting, nighttime farm noise, farm smells . And, not to mention
17 the impact on Road 43 , how are my tractors with plows, hay-
18 balers, hay-stackers, going to convert -- continue to traverse
19 on Road 43 and Road 40, with all of the additional traffic?
20 Wildlife has been mentioned as a wonderful feature
21 here . Well , I know that since the injector well was put in at
22 the corner of Road 40 and 39, I no longer see deer in my fields .
23 I have not seen any deer at all on my property for the last
24 year. Deer no longer sleep underneath the willows in my
25 pasture . With all those homes going in, there will be lessened
26 wildlife to enjoy.
Page 105
1 So those are the reasons, besides my history - - the
2 blood, sweat and tears of my four generations before me on my
3 land -- that I really object to this addition. Thank you.
4 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Thank you. Does the Board
5 have any questions? Okay. Thank you very much. All right . Is
6 there anyone else who would like to come forward at this time?
7 DAN OSTER: My name is Dan Oster, and I reside at
8 23457 Weld County Road 57, Kersey, Colorado. I do own some
9 property just , perhaps, about a mile and a half from this . It' s
10 another farm, actually two farms . -
11 I'm here today to represent the Platte Valley
12 Irrigation Company, which I 'm a Board member of . I 'm also here
13 to represent Weld County Council . And then I 'm here just to
14 represent my own interests .
15 Many people have expressed to me, as a Councilman,
16 that they' re very, very concerned about what is happening here .
17 And they weren' t able to come by, and so they asked if I ' d say
18 a few things in their behalf . And really, the only reason I
19 feel that I can is because I agree a hundred percent with their
20 concerns, because I share them.
21 You've heard many of the concerns . I don' t think
22 you've heard anybody mention that most of the farms in the
23 immediate area here depend upon wells for their domestic water
24 source . For [inaudible] , for our ancestors, when the line
25 extensions were very inexpensive and the taps were very
26 inexpensive - - now it' s about $20 , 000 a tap, plus a line
Page 106
1 extension, which can get totally prohibitive.
2 And, you know, we hear concerns about that . When oil
3 and gas exploration went on, there were concerns, and assurances
4 were made that that would not affect the drinking water wells .
5 But yet they have, and the owners have no recourse . I stood
6 here about, perhaps, ten years ago, pleaing that you would not
7 grant permission to ConAgra for its facility that they have on
8 Road 43 , very near this Longmont Foods . A lot of promises were
9 made at the time that dust abatement would be used on the road,
10 on Road 43 . It has never been. Trucks move very, very, very
11 fast, and it' s -- there have been two fatalities there, a truck
12 that was serving that facility.
- 13 And I only mention that, in that it' s my and others'
14 observation that promises right here before you folks are easy
15 to make . And I really commend you for the tough questions that
16 you've been asking of the applicant . I also commend the
17 applicant' s efforts to develop land that is not top, high-
18 quality, agricultural productive land. But here I think they've
19 gone a little bit too far, as far as development is concerned.
20 I think it' s really not totally suitable for high-density
- 21 development they' re asking for.
22 And I 'm sure that you've noticed that their sales in
23 the last -- you know, they've been at this for what? 15 years?
- 24 And their sales are less than a half a percent of what their
25 First Filing is? And I 'm wondering why they' re going to the
26 trouble of asking for a Second Filing when they haven' t even
Page 107
1 scratched the surface of their first one . They seem to be
2 having an awful lot of trouble making sales out there .
3 And the two folks we heard from that enjoy living
4 there, I 'm wondering if they' re going to enjoy it as much if
5 they find out all of a sudden they' re living in town -- if this
6 Second Filing is granted.
7 So I ' d really urge that you listen to the Planning
8 Commission, the fact that they've rejected it . Listen to Frank
9 here, that recognizes that the tax return does not compensate
10 for the extra cost and of the Road and Bridge Department . They
11 mentioned that they have a contract with the Sheriff' s Office .
12 We all know the Sheriff is spread very, very thin. Our response
13 time is getting worse and worse and worse . And here we have
14 spreading thinner, and I would guess that the tax revenue here
15 would not compensate for the extra services required by the
16 Sheriff' s office .
17 And so I just -- I really want to emphasize how
18 fragile the soil is out there . George, take a look at it .
19 You' d get a good judge of that . I think that if it were in the
20 control of, say, the Bureau of Land Management or something like
21 that, there would probably signs up where you shouldn' t even set
22 foot on a good share of it, because the grasses are extremely
23 fragile .
24 I just really want to urge that you let them fill out
25 Filing First, the First Filing first, before you grant a second
26 one . Or let them come at least somewhat closer -- you know,
Page 108
1 maybe even 10 percent of selling the First Filing -- 20 percent,
2 something like that -- before granting another Filing here . I
3 just don' t want you folks to be embarrassed if this thing really
4 goes sour. You know, there are other developments out further
5 south of there that look pretty bad. And the Commissioners that
6 were on the Board at that time probably wish now that they could
7 redo their decisions .
8 So thank you very much for listening to this .
9 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Thank you. Any questions?
10 COMMISSIONER GEILE: I just had one, if I may. Dan,
11 has the County Council taken a position on this subdivision? Is
12 that what you' re saying?
13 DAN OSTER: Not as a whole, because we didn' t have
14 time .
15 COMMISSIONER GEILE : So are you representing the
16 County Council today?
17 DAN OSTER: I just learned yesterday that this was
18 coming up today.
19 COMMISSIONER GEILE : But are you rep -- has the County
20 Council taken a position on this application? Or are you just
21 --
22 DAN OSTER: I am personally, as a Council member,
23 because that is my commission, that I review functions of the
24 government personally. And we have not addressed this in our
25 formal meeting.
26 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Okay, that answers my question.
Page 109
1 DAN OSTER: But personally, as a Councilman, I am
2 addressing this, and I am qualified and allowed to by the
3 Charter.
4 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Thank you.
5 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Is there anyone else who
6 would like to come forward at this time? If so, please come to
7 the microphone .
8 ROY WARDELL: My name is Roy -- is this on? Roy
9 Wardell, 18253 Weld County Road 32 . I apologize for -- I didn' t
10 hear some of the things that were said this morning before I got
11 my hearing device on. I couldn' t find my hearing aid this
12 morning. In fact, that was probably why we were late.
13 I -- my family, my brothers and I own the ranch that
14 borders on 3-1/2 miles of Pelican Lake development . And I' ll
15 show you just real quickly where that is . Right from two and a
16 half miles from this corner, up 2-1/2 miles, almost to the end
17 there, and then a mile here. So we border on -- we have a major
18 external border along the County roads .
19 And I have mixed feelings about this, and I didn' t --
20 I didn' t -- I don' t come necessarily to say that there shouldn' t
21 be a development there . Obviously that' s going to happen and
22 there will be a development . I have some major concerns about
23 the size of it .
24 By the way, I operate the ranch business . My business
25 is running the ranch; that' s my particular business . I have
26 some major concerns about whether the infrastructure is really
Page 110
1 in place for that size of a development . I have some concerns
2 about the amount of impact it' s going to have on my place, with
3 that big of a small town right next to me .
4 And I really ask you, as Commissioners -- and I don' t
5 -- I haven' t a -- most of the things we were talking about
6 specifically here, I 'm not an expert on, and I don' t claim to
7 say that the septic tanks won' t work. I do have concerns about
8 that, and I really encourage the County to look at what the
9 infrastructure it really has . This is - - the PUD for this, for
10 the whole plan, was done ten years ago, and things are much
11 different now than they were .
12 And I would also say that I was here ten years ago.
13 And one of the questions I asked when Morris Burke presented
14 this, was that -- because one of the promises that some of you
15 may remember was that they were going to pave Road 39 and, I
16 believe, Road 32 up to where it was not paved, about 2 miles
17 west of 39 . That never happened. But the County ended up
18 finally doing it .
19 And -- but there were some - - there' s definitely some
20 things that were said, and not -- I think were misleading.
21 Whether that was intentional or not, I 'm not sure. But there
22 were some things that were said that were not done. And so I
23 think, from the standpoint of the development, there' s been some
24 lack of performance that would at least be a fair exchange . If
25 there were some additional kinds of concerns addressed by the
26 County Commissioners in terms of whether that development should
Page 111
1 go on as it was originally approved, or whether there need to be
2 some modifications . I guess if I were to have my way, I know
3 that there' s going to be 188 houses, and maybe there should be
4 a few, some more there, but I really think that size of
5 development for that area is way too large .
6 I have a couple of specific questions about some
7 testimony from the developer this morning, or the people that
8 talked. I have been really -- had trouble finding out what the
9 deal is, because I farm sand. I mean, the biggest concern is,
10 as you probably know, is keeping it from blowing. And this blew
11 in and it' ll blow out . And I was just saying a little while
12 ago, if we don' t get some rain, I 'm going to have some blowing
13 out here pretty soon. I 've got seed in the ground for three
14 weeks that still hasn' t had any indication of sprouting.
15 And the same thing will happen with the grass on those
16 hills . Now there' s a bunch of bare ground up there around those
17 houses right now, which I think has been covered with sod or
18 something by now. But when -- it ' s time for the winds . And I
19 -- maybe it' s going to get done the next week or so, but if it
20 doesn' t, there' s going to be a lot of blowing dirt up there .
21 J -- one of the -- J. L. this morning has said that
22 there will be no horses on the sites at all . That is not my
23 understanding, and I would like, if I could, clarify with them,
24 or I' ll just present this question to you. I understood that
25 they would allow horses on the sites, but they had to be
26 contained in some size paddock. And I 've tried to find out what
Page 112
1 size that is, because I will guarantee you that if one horse is
2 allowed to ride on two acres or three or four acres up there,
3 that will all become blowing sand. It will -- that grass will
4 not -- or any planted grass -- will not sustain even one horse.
5 The stocking rate for that kind of area, particularly
6 the top of those sand hills, is one cow and calf for 30 or 40
7 acres . On the bottom half of it, where there' s good grass, it
8 might be 20 acres . But up there it would be a lot . And so I
9 guarantee you that if horses are allowed to run loose there, in
10 the paddocks, in the site -- and I don' t know. I understood
11 that they would be allowed to keep horses there . J. L. said
12 they would not . I would like that clarified.
13 And I would like to just reemphasize that it' s going
14 to be very, very difficult to keep -- there' s been a lot of sand
15 moved up there already that' s not been covered up -- to keep
16 that from blowing away.
17 And I really do worry about moving my cattle down the
18 road. In fact [inaudible] right to farm, and we do have
19 concerns about how bad that will be, or how difficult that will
20 be .
21 And I really appreciated Donita, one of the residents
22 -- she' s left now -- I haven' t met her before . But I really do,
23 at the same time, whatever goes in there, I intend to be a good
24 neighbor, and I 've offered to give my help in planting and
25 helping get some of that ground covered up, if he wants that
26 assistance. Thank you.
Page 113
1 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Thank you.
2 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: I did have a question.
3 ROY WARDELL: Any questions?
4 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Yes .
5 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Mr. Wardell , we have a question for
6 you, please .
7 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: You probably are -- as well , I
8 could have asked Mr. Oster, maybe should have, too -- but you
9 know the area; you've farmed there for a lot of years, ranched
10 there . You know the land. This particular piece of land -- has
11 it ever been farmed? Has it always been grass? What is it?
12 ROY WARDELL: Most of it has not been farmed.
13 Actually, when I was a kid, the Bolender brothers that owned
14 that -- we actually did farm a portion of that that' s now in the
15 -- actually in the original PU - - in the original 188 , there' s
16 -- right in the middle, where everybody -- just to the north.
17 This area, I know for sure, was farmed. That would
18 have been 30 years ago. But it ' s grown over, and it' s not going
19 to blow unless it gets torn up again. But it is abandoned
20 farmland.
21 And there may have been some other small areas -- I 'm
22 sure there are some other small areas, because originally
23 homesteads, every 160 of the homesteads had to break out 40
24 acres . So if there -- which was a mistake at that point, but
25 they didn' t know that . So there was always at least 40 acres
26 broken out of every 160, on those quarters that were
Page 114
1 homesteaded. And I 'm sure some of those quarters in that -- on
2 that whole area were -- does that answer your question?
3 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Well , that -- yes . The other
4 question would be, how badly, during the ' 30s and the ' 50s
5 again, did any of this blow? I mean, in our country, the ' 30s
6 were horrible, and I assume that any of the ground that was
7 broken up, some moved. But did it blow again in the ' 50s when
8 we had our bad droughts and wind?
9 ROY WARDELL: Well , in fact , I 'm glad you asked that,
10 because I wasn' t around in the ' 30s . I arrived on the scene in
11 the early ' 40s, and I don' t remember the early part of the ' 40s .
12 But --
13 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: I think George was around in the
14 `20s !
15 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: I've heard about those years, I
16 --
17 ROY WARDELL: I -- but one thing I did learn -- I
18 don' t know specifically about that land blowing. My brother and
19 I were talking over lunch, about 10 , 12 years ago, where one of
20 the fields that I have open right now that I've planted seed in,
21 where my brother spent a good part of his winter pulling ditches
22 through to his field to make some ditches to catch the sand that
23 was blowing.
24 But the other thing I wanted to mention is, we' re
25 talking about the lake and what nice water it is . For, I think,
26 three years during the ' 50s, that lake was dry. That was a dust
Page 115
1 bowl there that dirt blew out . Every time the wind came up,
2 there was a big cloud of dirt moving off of that whole lake.
3 There was absolutely no water in that lake . And if we get a few
4 years, back to back, like this year, I suspect that' ll happen
5 again.
6 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Any other questions? Thank
7 you very much. Is there anyone else? One more .
8 KAY CORNELIUS : My name is Kay Cornelius . I reside at
9 18000 Weld County Road 43 , in LaSalle . Thank you for letting me
10 speak today on this . I am Jane Evans' daughter-in-law, and she
11 left out a few things, and so I am speaking for her.
12 I live on the property, along with Jane Evans
13 Cornelius, directly to the east of the proposed housing
14 division. And also, I am a shareholder in FRICO, which owns
15 Milton Reservoir.
16 And my concerns today are -- I don' t know that I want
17 to ask the question: What is the lease with FRICO? What are
18 the lease terms that FRICO has with Pelican Lake division
19 regarding use of that reservoir as a marina? And I think it' s
20 five years . But I 'm curious as to, are the homeowners and are
21 all the people aware that that lease can be terminated? I'm not
22 sure . But I think that' s a valid question, in that they are
23 really selling this based on being able to use the marina . And
24 will that marina be there five years from now, ten years from
25 now? And it might be that it will be dry. So, this year is an
26 example of that .
Page 116
1 No one else here has mentioned groundwater
2 contamination from things other than the septic systems . They
3 have a proposed golf course site, and I believe there are
4 studies out there that show that any management of a golf site
5 -- I mean, obviously, all of the fertilizer, all of the
6 chemicals and weed control that they put on the golf course --
7 that does not go through a septic system. That goes straight
8 down through the sand.
9 Also, lawn fertilizer on all of these 700-and-some
10 houses -- someone pointed out to me that the Scotts Fertilizer
11 bag of lawn fertilizer is 600 times the application rate of that
12 of agriculturally used nitrogen on [inaudible] . And all of that
13 contamination, I don' t think has been addressed fully. And will
14 that go and leach into the groundwater?
15 Also, Jane Evans and I , the last couple Sundays, have
16 gone out and just told the neighbors about this hearing. And of
17 course many of them are working and so forth. But they -- I
18 have some petitions here that I would like to submit, of
19 neighbors that are within a five-mile radius or at least live in
20 Weld County that are voting age, that urge you also to reject
21 the proposal for the additional houses .
22 And lastly, I think these sand hills are beautiful ,
23 and they' re very fragile . We have seen the impact that digging
24 and refracting a well can have on a few acres . So when they go
25 in and develop that, what will all of these houses do to that
26 beautiful and fragile sand hill?
Page 117
1 And I 'm not in favor of stopping this growth that' s
2 happening in Weld County in general . But I think that, on a
3 personal level , 800 houses on this property is too much, and I
4 urge you to reject this proposal for further buildout . Thank
5 you very much.
6 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Thank you. Does anyone have any
7 questions? All right . Thank you. Okay. Next?
8 JOHN MOSER: My name' s John Moser, 6600 West 20th,
9 Number 11, Greeley, Colorado. We farm about two miles from
10 Pelican Lake, and dairy as well . I 'm not here to oppose this
11 application, but just to let you know that in production
12 agriculture, that we have a very wide base . So we have turkey
13 farms, we have dairies, we have cow/calf operations and these
14 types of things . And as we have more urban neighbors, that when
15 we come before you, as Commissioners, to ask for applications
16 for our operations, that we have a strong voice . We' re going to
17 have about 1, 800 , I would say, neighbors to the north of us
18 here, if -- when this is concluded. And that we' re considered
19 as well when we want to expand, when we want to do other things
20 in our agricultural businesses as well .
21 And, like I say, I 'm not here to oppose Jim and his --
22 and what he' s doing, but that -- and I'm sure you' re aware of
23 the conflicts that can take place over time . But that was the
24 only comment that I had. Thank you very much.
25 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Sure . Thank you. Okay. Would
26 anyone else like to come forward at this time?
Page 118
1 JOHN JEPSEN: Board of Weld County Commissioners,
2 ladies and gentlemen, my name is John Jepsen. I reside at 201
3 -- I just forgot my address ! -- 201121 Weld County Road 42 . My
4 brother was up here earlier, and we have some land that we
5 pasture that we own together, north of Milton Lake Reservoir.
6 It' s been in the family for years .
7 I 'm very concerned about the impact that this
8 development will have, not only on the tax base for Weld County,
9 the schools, the environment, traffic on Road 39 . As these
10 houses, housing developments go in, they say they don' t pay
11 their own way. So what' s left to pay the way is the agricultural
12 business, oil and gas . As the oil and gas production drops in
13 the future -- it' s not going to last forever -- that' ll be out,
14 and it' ll just leave businesses and agriculture to pay this tax.
15 The Gallinger Amendment of 1992 , that agriculture and
16 business pays the 29 percent of the assessed valuation
17 approximately, and houses around 9 percent . Well , this will add
18 a burden to the agriculture and the businesses that are here .
19 I 'm concerned about the septic tanks . They say they
20 could check them -- they could look in the tank and probably
21 pump it out and look what' s in there. But how would they test
22 the leach fields? How do they know if their leach fields are
23 failing? They say this ground is highly permeable . The water
24 drops down real fast, so they have to add soil, mix it with
25 bentonite, silt . They put it in a trench that' s 3-1/2 feet
26 wide, it' s approximately 4 feet deep. They put the leach lines
Page 119
1 on top of the trench and the gravel bed. What' s going to
2 prevent that from sealing up some time in the future, and that
3 water moving horizontally over to the ground -- it' s very
4 permeable -- and getting into the water table, which they don' t
5 know how deep it is . That' s one of my concerns .
6 They go out there and they tear up the native grass,
7 sagebrush. And when the wind comes up, it does blow. When I
8 was looking through the USDA Soil Survey, those are different
9 soils that are out there . And they mentioned blowing sand and
10 water capacity were the principal hazard in establishing the
11 trees and shrubs . Some of the soil is so loose that the trees
12 should be planted in shallow furrows, and vegetation maintained
13 between the rows . I guess when the soil does blow, if you have
14 a tree there, the blowing soil is going to just knock it down.
15 They did say that, you know, soil has a fair potential
16 for urban development . And one soil -- three different types I
17 looked up -- they mentioned soil blowing, hard to get the grass
18 reestablished, trees . And they were talking about campsites,
19 picnic sites, trails . These trails are really too sandy, and
20 it' s very dusty. We' re having 19 miles of trails put in for the
21 horses, that could blow and probably will blow unless some dust
22 control there, erosion control on these 19 miles of trail .
23 They say that this soil could possibly cave in under
24 the deeper trenches, which is a concern to the people in there .
25 Now, the people that mix the soil, if they do a good job and get
26 a good mix, it' d be good. But maybe on a hot day they' ll just
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1 kind of dump it in there and call it good, and get on to the
2 next one .
3 I 'm concerned about the County taking over the
4 maintenance of 21 miles of road. Their Metropolitan District
5 has a mill levy 40 . That should at least pay for the
6 maintenance of the road. When this was first proposed, Mr.
7 Burke said he' d maintain the roads and do all this, take care of
8 the Platteville road, maintain it , have a road grader there .
9 Now they say when a hundred houses are there, it ' ll only pay a
10 few dollars . I was looking through the packet there, and the
11 matter came up of how much he' ll actually pay -- this
12 developer.
13 As far as water in Milton Lake, since ' 95 there' s been
14 more abundant rainfall in this area, so the water -- lake levels
15 have been higher. It has been dry. It has been empty in the
16 past, as Mr. Wardell spoke of . I remember my father saying it
17 was empty. And the water quality is very poor. FRICO is always
18 concerned about the water quality in the lake . What makes good
19 water quality for irrigation, they figure, 70 percent of the
20 water there is -- was effluent that comes out of the Platte
21 River. There' s a lot of dead animals that float down in there,
22 and decaying animals, urban runoff, runoff from roads, motor
23 oil , antifreeze, everything. That doesn' t sound too good to
24 swim in.
25 As far as this town -- it' s not near an urban area.
26 I 'm concerned about the traffic on Road 39, moving large farm
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1 equipment . And as far as the school, added kids there to
2 educate -- the school just passed a bond issue to enlarge some
3 of the buildings . I don' t know how wise it is to accept a piece
4 of ground that -- for a school site, that has no use for a
5 school site, no sewer system. We don' t know how much it would
6 sell for. If we sell it , they' d have to change the zoning, hire
7 a real estate agent . That all costs money.
8 And the people there, they say they' re looking for a
9 rural area. Would these kids be involved in 4-H? Is there any
10 Covenants that say they can keep cows on their property, sheep,
11 goats, in 4-H projects? Thank you. Is there any questions?
12 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Sure. Thank you. Any questions?
13 No? Not at this time . Thank you. All right . Anyone else like
14 to come forward at this time? If you would, please, state your
15 name and address for the record.
16 GARY WARDELL: My name is Gary Wardell . I live at 316
17 North 4th Street, in LaSalle. The first thing I' d like to say
18 is, I wish this had never started. But that ' s kind of a moot
19 point right now, because it started and it' s happening. So I
20 find myself in kind of a funny position, understanding that we
21 have something going out there .
22 I share the concerns of most of the people here. I've
23 heard an awful lot of stuff, and I 'm guessing that maybe, if we
24 could just boil it all down, a lot of people out there would
25 say, "Boy, I just wish we didn' t have that many people moving in
26 right next to us . " I think maybe that' s -- I think maybe that' s
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1 the real crux of what is going on here.
2 Some specifics : One of the things that does bother me
3 or that worries me a bit -- and Dave, I think this has maybe
4 happened. I think maybe the School District has their hands
5 tied a bit as a result of what happened back in the ' 80s . I
6 really wish there was some way to address an impact fee or
7 something, something that would ensure the School District the
8 ability to prepare themselves for the growth that' s necessary if
9 this does happen, at least in the volume that they' re talking
10 about . And I don' t know if that' s possible .
11 The -- I don' t think I share the belief that this is
12 going to be a leech on the entire community. I mean, I think
13 there will be things -- that there will be problems to address,
14 but I think there will also be some benefits, some economical
15 benefits for some of the surrounding areas, as the lady that
16 lives there spoke earlier. I mean, they' re part of the
17 community; they' ll spend money just like the rest of us . I'm
18 not exactly familiar what the tax base will be and how that' ll
19 work, so whether or not it' ll pay for its own way in terms of
20 roads, in terms of services necessary, law enforcement, I don' t
21 really know.
22 One of my concerns about where we' re at today -- I
23 know that the developers have invested an incredible amount of
24 money in infrastructure, in the whole project , at this point .
25 And one of the things that I would not want to see happen, I
26 would not want to see this project doomed because it was stopped
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1 way short of what it was originally planned. I would just as
2 soon not see -- you know, and there' s been a lot of talk of
3 whether the economy or whether the economics are there for this
4 to work. And if the economics aren' t there for this to work,
5 then it doesn' t become necessary for a government entity to shut
6 it down. It' ll shut itself down. It will happen.
7 So my concern is -- and I'm not sure that 7 or 800
8 homes is appropriate out there . There is no question that, for
9 my brother and Osters and Jepsens and all the people who live
10 out there still, that there' s going to be an incredible impact .
11 But if we take just a small dose of reality, and if we look at
12 what' s happened in Windsor and Johnstown and Milliken and
13 Platteville and all those communities, I guess it' d be nice if
14 those of us out there could avoid this kind of impact, but I
15 don' t know as we can.
16 A couple specific issues that I just want to offer my
17 thoughts on. And first of all, I want to say that I 'm certainly
18 not an expert in regards to septic systems . But before Roy came
19 there, I spent most of my adult life on that river, all of my
20 childhood and most of my adult life on that ranch. And the one
21 thing I can tell you is that for most of the area that they' re
22 talking about, it' s a real struggle to find shallow water. I am
23 concerned with the septic tanks, especially on the back side,
24 back in close proximity to the lakes and to the feed ditch that
25 runs through there . That could be a possible, a problem area.
26 Where the First Filing is, where most of the stuff is on this
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1 area, my personal opinion is that a lot of what' s going down to
2 the septic systems is probably never going to meet up with any
3 other water, you know.
4 As far as runoff, this area is incredibly absorbent .
5 There' s generally a lot more ability in the soil than there is
6 water to be absorbed, so my guess is that that' s probably not
7 going to be a real big issue .
8 Traffic -- I don' t know. And it' s appropriate that we
9 -- you know, that you take a good, hard look at that . I think
10 that' s probably one of the major issues in how that affects not
11 just agriculture but everything else that' s going on.
12 When they first started building -- my dad passed away
13 this spring. And he and I were out there after, I think, they
14 made three or four houses out there at that point . I was
15 shaking my head and said, "This is a bad thing. " And he said,
16 well , he said it sure would be inconvenient for those of us who
17 live close to it .
18 But his comment was that if there would have been the
19 proper amount of planning for the past 50 years, that this
20 country would be covered with homes . He said along with the
21 hills, those dryland hills between Longmont and Loveland,
22 because, he said, that' s a lot better to lose it, he said - - and
23 not minimizing how it impacts the people that live there, but in
24 terms of the people want a rural lifestyle . They' re going to
25 find it somewhere .
26 And so I question whether or not it' s appropriate to
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1 at least shut this down in its entirety when we've got things
2 going on in Milliken and Johnstown that' s eating up really prime
3 land - - Mr. Oster alluded to that -- really prime farm ground.
4 We' re losing a lot more there .
5 There' s going to be some difficulties in handling the
6 sand, and I hope the developers are aware of that . I think they
7 are, and I hope they' re taking the steps necessary to make sure
8 that that ' s handled. And if that' s the case, then it can -- I
9 believe it can be managed. It won' t be easy. But whether or
10 not this development is a greater detriment or a greater -- has
11 greater impact on that area than a lot of the other things that
12 you guys look at, I don' t know.
13 So -- and I don' t know, at this point, whether this is
14 an all-or-nothing situation or whether there' s still room for
15 negotiation. Maybe lot sizes could increase; maybe there could
16 be some extra buffer zone . And I know developers hate that kind
17 of talk. But I don' t think it' s -- I don' t think it' s probably
18 appropriate to shut it down at this point . But I think it' s
19 appropriate to take whatever caution is possible, and at least,
20 hopefully, they' ll proceed slowly and, hopefully, with the
21 guidance from the Commissioners it can make sense and not hurt
22 anyone . Thank you.
23 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Thank you. Questions? All right .
24 GARY WARDELL: Oh, any questions?
25 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: That' s all right . No questions . Is
26 there anyone else in the audience who would like to come forward
Page 126
1 at this time? Seeing no one else coming forward, I close Public
2 Hearing. Would the applicant or the representative like to come
3 back up to the microphone and make any comments as far as
4 rebuttal , or answer some of the questions that were brought up
5 during the Public Hearing?
6 JIM FELL: We tried, in our initial presentation, to
7 address most of the concerns that have been brought up since
8 then by the various people. And we brought forth a couple of
9 what we feel are experts on the septic system problem. I think
10 if you believe them when they say there is no problem, that this
11 number of septic systems will not have an adverse effect to the
12 area, and that this -- these septic systems, properly designed
13 and developed, will not have an effect on groundwater.
14 And that we are following the proper, licensed --
15 having licensed engineers design the septic systems and
16 qualified, licensed builders build them. We can, you know -- if
17 we think there could be some improvements, then we' ll change the
18 regulations if we find there are improvements . But right now I
19 think we' re doing it well within the science of septic systems .
20 As far as dust blowing, we have, and intend to in the
21 future, not to have any bare ground -- not any bare ground, any
22 ground that wasn' t bare before . And there wasn' t much. The
23 sand that was blown there - - I 'm sure there was sand, because it
24 is loose, you know. I don' t think it was extensive, to the
25 extent that it might have been presented here . I have heard of
26 no sand piles, drifts, or anything else in the project since we
Page 127
1 started, and we've watched it . And we are planting, as fast as
2 our planner says that we should, on any land that we lay bare .
3 And we are doing it with a method that will hold the seed so it
4 will take.
5 We've had experience already from last year when we
6 planted some ponds, some detention ponds, and when we planted
7 alongside of the roads, and that grass is growing. Now, it can
8 be reseeded and will be reseeded because everything didn' t take,
9 any more than it takes anytime. But it certainly is holding the
10 soil now, and will , with the repeated efforts we' re going to
11 make, it will hold it even better.
12 As far as water is concerned, I think J. L. answered
13 those questions . We have water. We continue to get water, and
14 it will be -- and we have -- the infrastructure that' s in this
15 project now, the basic infrastructure for bringing water to the
16 site and handling water in the area, we've already done that ;
17 we've already paid for it; it' s already in place .
18 We brought natural gas to the site . And we brought it
19 through a number of farms, and we contacted every farmer that we
20 were going to -- whose land we were going to encroach, and got
21 their permission, and told them exactly what we would do, and we
22 did exactly what we said we would do. Everything was replanted
23 and redone .
24 We brought water down through some other people' s
25 property, and we did what we said we would do there, and we
26 furnished enough water that other businesses - - for instance,
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1 the dairy has been able to use the water line that we put in to
2 our property -- that' s been extended to theirs . We feel that
3 we' re part of the community.
4 We have -- as far as traffic' s concerned, we hired
5 what the County, at that time, the people in the County thought
6 was a good traffic engineer. And we lis -- we both listened to
7 him, and we entered into an agreement for future handling of
8 traffic matters as they come up, based on the opinion of not
9 only the traffic engineer but the people in the County. And we
10 will follow that . We've already, as I mentioned earlier,
11 installed one of the things that was required before we got any
12 -- before we had the population that required it, because we
13 felt it was the safe thing to do.
14 We are cooperating with -- there' s some question about
15 the Sheriff' s Department . They will finally have a station in
16 that area, which they don' t have now, by using our guard
17 entrance . And we've done everything we can to make it palatable
18 for them. They' re using it to some extent now. As they say, if
19 we ever get the telephone company to do what they' re supposed to
20 do -- we've been fighting it for some time - - they will use it
21 more .
22 The schools have discussed it . We've been in
23 discussion with the school system since before we started the
24 first house or moved the first blade of grass out there . And
25 the same thing with the Fire Department . We've talked to the
26 Fire Department from the beginning, and we've received their
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1 agreement to [inaudible] .
2 We've done the same thing with other departments in
3 the County and in Public Service . I think the County Planning
4 Department will tell you that when they made suggestions, we
5 listened and we followed them. I think the same thing would be
6 true with any of the departments in the County. We have done
7 what they have suggested and will continue to do it .
8 We can' t help the fact that -- I can' t help the fact
9 that this was approved for 800 homes several years ago. And we
10 kept filing that and working on it, and we kept in contact with
11 different people in the County while this delay was going on.
12 The delay primarily was financial . They -- it' s been brought up
13 that Mr. Burke, who is our successor, made some promises . I
14 don' t know about the promises, but I know that, for the most
15 part, we've lived up to everything that was in writing between
16 the County and us . And I think the County people and the staff
17 will tell you that .
18 I don' t know what else we can do. I don' t know what
19 else will please anybody. But I know that what we've been
20 doing, and the work that we've been doing, and the expenditures
21 that we've made, were done in reliance on the fact that we were
22 assured that we had a PUD and that we could develop the
23 property, and that it could be developed in the size we were
24 talking about . And I don' t think we ever questioned or brought
25 up to anyone else whether this was a problem or not . We were
26 working under the assumption that we were working with people
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1 that knew what they were doing, and we were going to what we
2 knew we were doing.
3 There was some mention by somebody of a golf course.
4 And that' s true -- at one time, we contemplated a golf course on
5 the site . We had independent studies from people that were
6 recommended to us by the golf course designer and our
7 development designer, that -- these people said, "Don' t build a
8 golf course now. " And we' re proceeding, and we' re not going to
9 build a golf course . And the reason, very easily, is it wasn' t
10 economic, it wasn' t practical . And as we studied the water
11 situation, it looked like it could be very complicated in years
12 like this, like this big drought now.
13 We know that the lake is not full all the time, and we
14 haven' t told people it will be full all the time . But when it
15 is full, it is going to be good for what we' re using it for, and
16 that' s sailing and boating and some fishing.
17 If you have any other questions, I ' d be glad to try to
18 answer them.
19 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Other questions from the
20 Board. Mike .
21 COMMISSIONER GEILE : I just want to make sure, Mr.
22 Fell, that we understand, because I have here, that was provided
23 in some of the testimony at the Public Hearing, Saturday, August
24 21st, Pelican Lake . It says 3 , 484 rolling acres that would
25 become home to 800 privileged-to-live-in families . 800 .
26 JIM FELL: But we reduced the 800 to 7 -- to 724 .
Page 131
1 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Well , but my question is, is what
2 do you currently have approval for?
3 JIM FELL: Seven-twenty-four, I believe it is . Is
4 that the right number?
5 MONICA MIKA: No, no, the -- Monica Mika. The First
6 Filing is for 188 lots .
7 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Okay. Then my question is, you
8 don' t have approval for a hundred -- or 800, or 754 . You have
9 approval for 180 . Is that correct?
10 JIM FELL: We have approval for 188 lots, and we
11 thought we had a -- we thought we had approval for the PUD for,
12 originally, 800, and we reduced the size -- reduced the number
13 of lots to 724 .
14 MONICA MIKA: The Change of Zone Case Z-412 was for up
15 to 801 residents or lots with amenities, so he is correct on
16 that . But there' s only been one platting.
17 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Well, the only question I have --
18 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Through Filing 2 , or for all of it?
19 MONICA MIKA: Including Filing 2 .
20 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Not Filing 3 , 4 , 5, or 6? Just up
21 -- up through, including number 2 , it was for 801 lots?
22 MONICA MIKA: No, they -- the Change of Zone was for
23 801 lots . And then they were granted the opportunity to phase
24 out those lots over a period of time, always coming back and
25 needing approval for the final plat . So they have 188 lots that
26 are completed. And the ones under question today --
Page 132
1 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: -- have to come back to the Board
2 for approval .
3 MONICA MIKA: Yes .
4 JIM FELL : Which is what we' re doing now.
5 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Yes .
6 COMMISSIONER GEILE : But I 'm saying that you
7 represented the fact that you have 800 lots available .
8 JIM FELL: I have our advertising man here, and I ' ll
9 be very happy for him to answer why he printed 800 . But at one
10 time, it was approved for 800 lots, and that' s why he probably
11 did it . I don' t know the date of that [inaudible] --
12 COMMISSIONER GEILE: That' s fine . Thank you.
13 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Any other questions . Questions?
14 Questions, go ahead.
15 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Yeah, Mr. Fell , Ms . Cornelius
16 asked about the arrangements on the surface lease to the lake.
17 Can you respond to that?
18 JIM FELL: It' s till 2015 we have a -- we don' t have
19 an option but we have an agree -- within the agreement it
20 provides for us to ask for renewal . And in the event it isn' t
21 renewed, and somebody else takes over the lease, they have to
22 pay us for our improvements, depreciated -- on a depreciated
23 basis .
24 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Sure.
25 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Let me just finish my question.
26 Have you presold, or have you sold, contingent upon the approval
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1 of -- that we' re today for -- any of the lots other than the
2 180?
3 JIM FELL: We haven' t sold any lots outside of the 188
4 lots to date .
5 COMMISSIONER GEILE: You don' t have any presold, you
6 don' t have any contracts --
7 JIM FELL: Don' t have any presolds, don' t have any
8 contracts, don' t have any -- we don' t have any agreements at all
9 on anything other than what' s already been approved. And the
10 reason, obviously, is we didn' t have them approved -- you know,
11 we didn' t have the lots approved. We've had a number of people
12 talking to us about lakeside lots, other different lots in
13 different locations, and we just tell them that we' re not able
14 to talk about it, when they' re not there .
15 COMMISSIONER GEILE: Thank you.
16 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: And how many lots have you sold of
17 the 188?
18 JIM FELL: Tell me --
19 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 47 .
20 JIM FELL: 47 lots have been sold. And that' s in just
21 shortly over a year.
22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: In all we have 63 available for
23 sale .
24 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Is there any further
25 questions at this time? No? Okay. Thank you very much.
26 JIM FELL: All right . Do you want to say anything?
Page 134
1 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: You know that ' s - - that needs to
2 either go in front of the microphone as testimony, or it needs
3 to go to the County Attorney.
4 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Okay. I ' ll give it to the
5 Attorney and we can ask. It' s a question that I will bring up.
6 LEE MORRISON: Well , why don' t you read it and
7 indicate where you got it from?
8 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Okay. For the record, I
9 received a note from Mr. Wardell , asking that we clarify whether
10 or not the horses can be kept on the lots . And that was a point
11 that was brought up. And I would be willing to ask that
12 question, if it' s all right with the Board.
13 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Sure .
14 JIM FELL: We have, in our Covenants, a proviso that
15 there would only be one horse per acre on the lot . No horses
16 can graze on the lot . This is part -- also part of the
17 Covenant . There is provision for a stable and paddock,
18 consisting of five percent of the size of the lot . And that --
19 it' s anticipated that all horses will be fed in -- if they' re
20 keeping them in the stable -- will be fed in the stable . There
21 is no grazing in the open space . Horses are not turned loose in
22 the project at all . There is not -- and this has been made
23 clear to anybody that ' s buying a horse lot . And it is, as I
24 say, part of the Covenants that they receive when they buy a
25 lot . Anything else?
26 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Just a question on that -- any
Page 135
1 of those -- are there some lots up to three acres, some are down
2 as low as 1 . 6? If I understood that from --
3 JIM FELL: Actually, the average size of lot in this
4 project is 4 . 8 acres, if you take the size of the project and
5 divide it by the number of lots . The smallest lot we have, I
6 believe, is 1 . 6 acres, and we have some lots that are over 4
7 acres .
8 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: That are over 4 acres .
9 JIM FELL: They' re over 4 acres .
10 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: And my question, I guess,
11 follows . Is the larger lots in any way directed toward ones
12 that would have horses on them then? Or they could be on any of
13 them?
14 JIM FELL: Actually, horse lots have to border open
15 space . In other words, we designate what lots can be horse
16 lots, and they have to border onto open space. They can' t
17 border against another lot, you know, close against another lot .
18 And that' s so that they can be made available to enter the
19 trails . The whole object of this project -- well, one of the
20 objects of this project was, people who had children who had
21 horses weren' t crossing highways and weren' t crossing -- you
22 know, they didn' t have to haul them someplace for them to start
23 riding. And that was the theory.
24 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Okay.
25 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: All right . Thank you very much.
26 COMMISSIONER HALL: Madame Chair. Mr. Fell, if I
Page 136
1 could ask you --
2 JIM FELL: Yes .
3 COMMISSIONER HALL: I guess I 'm starting to have a
4 little bit of a concern here, where you -- earlier we had
5 testimony that you had averaged -- or your average acreage was
6 1 . 9 acres, and that ranged from 1 . 6 to 3 acres . And I think
7 that came from your people . And now you' re saying it' s 4 acres .
8 JIM FELL: I 'm saying there are some lots that are 4 ,
9 4-1/2 -- is that right?
10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: In the First Filing there was .
11 JIM FELL : Yeah, in the First Filing.
12 MONICA MIKA: Not in the Second Filing.
13 JIM FELL: Not in the Second. I 'm sorry, but in the
14 First Filing.
15 COMMISSIONER HALL: Okay. So the Second Filing is
16 what we' re talking about today though.
17 JIM FELL: That' s right .
18 COMMISSIONER HALL : Okay. Then the --
N JIM FELL: 1 . 93 would be a closer estimate of the size
20 of a lot .
21 COMMISSIONER HALL: And the other question I guess I
22 have is, we've talked about -- we had one of your
23 representatives come up and talk about that the horses would not
— 24 be stabled on the lots, that they would be stabled at a
25 different location. And now you' re saying that they can be .
26 JIM FELL: J. L. , who was here, made - - apparently
Page 137
1 made that statement, and I don' t know for sure where he got it,
2 because we've always had provision for horses to be kept on the
3 lot but not grazed on the lot .
4 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. Any further questions at this
5 time? Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. The pleasure of
6 the Board -- do you have any questions for any of the staff at
7 this time? Okay. Glenn.
8 COMMISSIONER VAAD: If I may, if I can address this to
9 Counsel . Gary Wardell made a comment -- and I hope I don' t
10 butcher it -- but I agree with what I understood as the essence
11 of it : that if the project fails because of the economic
12 vagaries of the time, so be it . But government shouldn' t be an
13 agent for that failure . And it' s one of the things that' s
14 concerned me .
15 Early on in my tenure here on the Board -- which has
16 only been a year and eight months, or whatever -- we had a
17 proceedings where we talked about the Metropolitan District of
18 Beebe Draw. And I don' t recall what that was specifically. But
19 I do recall very clearly that I asked the question, because I
20 had moved up some -- a long time ago, 30 years ago or 20 years
21 ago -- from the south Denver area, and it was about the time --
22 maybe it was since then -- that Douglas County had the Farms .
23 And somebody mentioned in the testimony today about districts
24 where -- wound up with very few people who had the burden of the
25 whole district .
26 And I remember asking the questions, not the specific
Page 138
1 things, during the discussion that I just mentioned a year or so
2 ago. Is there some protection from that happening in this
3 Metropolitan District? Because I sure didn' t want to be any
4 part of approving something that I might have had -- and as I
5 understand it, we approved the formation of the District,
6 because it' s in the County limits . But anyway, I wanted to make
7 sure that that wouldn' t happen to some unsuspecting homebuyers,
8 or people who moved in.
9 So my question is, is there a protection that, should
10 this fail -- now the $2 million, I guess, is the debt of the
11 District -- would that fall to the 18 homes or 47 lot-owners or
12 whatever that is?
13 LEE MORRISON: This isn' t particularly an area of my
14 expertise . But my understanding is, after those failures,
15 certain protections were put in place that would limit the
16 amount of liability to the individual homeowners, so that you
17 couldn' t -- and you couldn' t end up with a mill levy of a
18 thousand or something like that . So that' s my understanding,
19 that that -- there were other, some other attempts at
20 protections that haven' t followed up very well , like the
21 Quincentennial Review --
22 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Quinquinquinnial Review.
23 LEE MORRISON: But those have kind of gone by the
24 board. There are limits now on what can be assessed against the
25 actual property owners .
26 COMMISSIONER VAAD : And we heard in the testimony that
Page 139
1 there was a limit of 50 mills . It' s only being assessed at 40
2 mills now, but it couldn' t go over 50?
3 LEE MORRISON: Mm-hmm.
4 COMMISSIONER VAAD: I think I understood that .
5 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: And in the Metro District, it was
6 the consolidation that we heard, of Metro Districts . And the
7 Financial Plan was based on 188 lots? Or was it based on 724
8 lots?
9 LEE MORRISON: I believe it was based on the full
10 buildout . It was actually a creation of a two-tier district
11 that would allow that the developers would remain in control of
12 the decision making where the overall assessment would cover all
13 of the lots . And it provided a protection so that the voters
14 could not vote not to do the things that they've promised to do
15 by contract to the Board and to the Homeowners Association. So
16 it' s basically a two -- a two-tiered district .
17 And I think that' s where the comment came from this
18 morning, that somehow it was going to be turned over to the
19 homeowners . The assessing district will be run by the
20 homeowners; the operating district will essentially include the
21 other lots of the developers .
22 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: But given that it was a two-tier
23 district, should this not be approved today, the provisions
24 within the Metro District and the Financial Plan would still be
25 okay for the first 188 lots .
26 LEE MORRISON: I don' t think I ' m qualified to answer
Page 140
1 that . I mean, they had to make their projections based on the
2 entire life of development .
3 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: And including additional
4 infrastructure that would have been needed for the second tier.
5 LEE MORRISON: That' s correct . Right . And there' s
6 been discussion of the phasing so that they've not invested
7 beyond the phases necessary to serve the existing --
8 COMMISSIONER GEILE : But just to make sure that we' re
9 absolutely clear on that, nothing that we -- when we concurred
10 with the formation of the Metropolitan District, nothing in that
11 committed this Board to approving the second phase .
12 LEE MORRISON: That' s correct .
13 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Let' s just make sure of that .
14 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: And it wasn' t actually a formation,
15 was it? It was consolidation of the two?
16 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Consolidation.
17 LEE MORRISON: Well , it was actually --
18 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Both? It was a formation and a
19 consolidation?
20 LEE MORRISON: It really wasn' t a consolidation.
21 There was one district . It turned into two districts, an
22 assessing district and an operating district . The functions
23 didn' t change substantially. The financial setup was modified
24 by the creation of the two districts . So there weren' t existing
25 districts that were combined. In fact, you end up with two
26 where there was one . But the functions are essentially the
Page 141
1 same.
2 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: And I 'm just trying to make sure
3 that I 'm looking at the correct document for what we need to
4 look at as the Board of County Commissioners . I mean, should we
5 be looking at the subdivision -- or the Planned Unit Development
6 document, Ordinance Number 197 , page 35, where it talks about
7 the duties of the Board in relation to the Final Plan submittal?
8 Or should we be looking at Section 28 in the Zoning Ordinance,
9 which talks about the duties of the Board in relationship to a
10 Planned Unit Development plan?
11 LEE MORRISON: The older document, 28 .
12 MONICA MIKA: 28 . 14 .
13 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Section 28?
14 MONICA MIKA: Yes .
15 LEE MORRISON: Right . Because that' s how the original
16 Change of Zone was accomplished, it was pursuant to the Zoning
17 Ordinance .
18 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Madame Chairman?
19 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Yes .
20 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: I would love to ask our attorney
21 here a follow-up question to that, for my benefit and, I think,
22 for all of us here . I would like to have - - and maybe it can be
23 got out of that document -- but the limits, if there is a limit,
24 on our ability to what we can do with this today. Obviously
25 we' re here to approve or not approve, but we' re in a position
26 where this has passed, allowing this number of lots . What are
Page 142
1 the limits to what we can do here today?
2 LEE MORRISON: Well , I think the important factor is
3 that you've got an established PUD District . So you've got to
4 make your decision based on an evaluation whether the Final Plan
5 conforms to the District . I think the further complication is
6 that the current County Comprehensive Plan is not the
7 Comprehensive Plan under which the District, the original PUD
8 District, is -- was decided.
9 I -- there is not a guarantee that a particular Final
10 Plan has to be approved. I think, as long as the zoning' s in
11 place, the implication is that there' s some plan that will meet
12 these criteria that still can be applied for and approved. So
13 what I -- I mean, you've got a zoning; you've established that .
14 You've got the criteria that any subsequent Final Plan has to
15 conform to that zoning. That doesn' t mean that any particular
16 proposal has to be -- you' re mandated to approve it .
17 But you' re kind of in a more narrow field of decision
18 than you would be if this were an initial Change of Zone .
19 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: So, if I understand you right,
20 we' re here to decide whether this Plan fits .
21 LEE MORRISON: Yes .
22 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: If it has the elements in it
23 that make it fit into, and we have to have a reason for it not
24 to fit in.
25 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Based on the criteria in Section
26 28 . 8 .
Page 143
1 LEE MORRISON: Yes .
2 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Those are the things we need to look
3 at .
4 LEE MORRISON: Yes . Well , actually, it' s 28 . 14 .
5 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: 28 . 14 .
6 LEE MORRISON: Right, 28 . 14 .
7 COMMISSIONER HALL: The question, then, if it says the
8 Comprehen -- if it says it' s consistent with the Weld County
9 Comprehensive Plan, which one are we supposed to be using?
10 LEE MORRISON: Well, it also says "in effect , " when it
11 talks about other ordinances . Now, we did not foresee this
12 issue when we adopted the new Comprehensive Plan, and the Board
13 did not adopt any particular policies on application of
14 something that, you know, goes back this far. You know, I think
15 you' re really looking at the old Plan, in terms of how the
16 initial zone change was done.
17 COMMISSIONER HALL: Do we have a copy of that
18 somewhere? So that would be back in 1984?
19 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Three .
20 COMMISSIONER HALL: Three?
21 LEE MORRISON: Yeah, it' s the ' 83 Plan. I don' t have
22 it under here .
23 COMMISSIONER HALL: Isn' t there also something that
24 says to keep a PUD active, or a zone change active, you have to
25 be doing things in three years, or something like that?
26 LEE MORRISON: Some of that language didn' t get
Page 144
1 created until after that zone change was done, so it wasn' t
2 applicable to this particular zone change . I believe it was
3 done in 1989 . So that, for -- that particular requirement
4 wasn' t there in ' 85 .
5 COMMISSIONER HALL: But now if someone waits 10 or 15
6 years and doesn' t do anything with it, they' re running the risk
7 of not -- of it becoming expired.
8 COMMISSIONER GEILE : But no matter which Comprehensive
9 Plan we' re reviewing, the health, welfare, safety, protection
10 of the people, the citizens of Weld County, whether it' s now or
11 whether it was in ' 83 , those principles still apply.
12 LEE MORRISON: That' s an underlying element of
13 [inaudible] .
14 COMMISSIONER GEILE : So if this Board were to look at
15 the septic systems, were to look at the transportation systems,
16 and all these other things we've heard testimony about, and made
17 a determination that they did or didn' t -- I mean, they could
18 use that to make the -- those elements could be used to make a
19 determination. Isn' t that correct?
20 LEE MORRISON: That' s correct . And there was -- there
21 were elements regarding proximity to existing municipalities in
22 the old Plan as well . Mr. Fell referenced that, because it --
23 the initial Change of Zone seemed to hinge on the fact that this
24 is not the type of development that could occur within that
25 zone, adjacent to municipality, because of the amenities . And
26 that' s what the Change of Zone that the prior Board -- that
Page 145
1 element is what they relied upon in making the decision. But
2 there was still element -- there' s still elements there where
3 development is encouraged to occur adjacent to existing
4 municipalities, just as in today' s Comprehensive Plan.
5 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Does the Board have any other
6 questions?
7 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Madame Chairman, I ' d like to ask
8 the Attorney one more question. On 28 . 14 . 1 . 6 . 6, I just - - I
9 guess I 'm interested in how narrowly we can define a portion
10 that says "compliance with submittal requirements PUD Plan, the
11 PUD Plat and supporting documents must satisfy legitimate
12 concerns of the Board. " Are we talking about just the
13 documents? Or are we talking about anything else?
14 LEE MORRISON: Well , that particular section has to do
15 with more the paperwork. I mean, it' s just saying that you get
16 to look at the application and see if everything was addressed
17 in the application.
18 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Okay. That' s the answer I need.
19 LEE MORRISON: There' s other elements that might --
20 well, the health, safety and welfare concern, for one, that
21 opens the area of inquiry. But that particular one has to do
22 with looking at the application and saying is that adequate in
23 terms of what' s been addressed.
24 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Okay. Thank you.
25 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Madame Chairman, I ' m willing to
26 try a motion, to at least get some further discussion going, if
Page 146
1 you' re prepared.
2 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Sure .
3 COMMISSIONER VAAD : Well, let me just start by -- I ' ll
4 make a motion to approve the requested PUD -- the Planned Unit
5 Development number 525 for Beebe Draw Farms, Second Filing, 536
6 lots .
7 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Just for the sake of getting it
8 on the table, I ' ll second it .
9 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Thank you.
10 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Discussion.
11 LEE MORRISON: Is that it for -- is that incorporating
12 the failed motion of the Planning Commission?
13 COMMISSIONER VAAD: I guess if -- if that' s the way it
14 needs to be . Since I 've never done that --
15 LEE MORRISON: Well, in terms of what' s in the record,
16 it' s the same as if they had approved it . You' re working from
17 a, you know, a starting point in terms of the document -- if,
18 you know, if that' s your desire .
19 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Yes, it does include that .
20 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Second agree?
21 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: Yes .
22 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Discussion?
23 COMMISSIONER VAAD : Yes . Well , I have concerns and
24 share the anxiety of the neighbors about the size of town, in
25 fact exceeding several of the towns around it in -- as far as
26 population and number of rooftops, and -- it looks like equal to
Page 147
1 Platteville, which is its closest neighbor.
2 I'm harkening back to the decisions made in 1985,
3 which led the developer to feel -- or even it was a predecessor
4 to the current developers -- to feel that they had permission
5 for sure on the First Filing and an indication that, because of
6 the Change of Zone, that eventually they would be allowed the
7 full buildout .
8 I appreciate and, as I know all of my colleagues do,
9 of our need to be very watchful for the health, safety and
10 welfare of the Weld County residents . So, as I've been
11 listening to the testimony and request brought before us, I'm
12 satisfied that, to the best of our ability, we are doing that .
13 Reference specifically the septic systems, we even
14 have in our documentation from a former Director of Public
15 Health here in Weld County, Wes Potter, that he thought the
16 individual sewage disposal systems were acceptable, if not
17 appropriate, even in spite of a letter that he had from the
18 State Department at that time, saying that they would prefer to
19 see a centralized collection system and a sewage treatment
20 plant . And we've also heard from a licensed, registered
21 engineer in Colorado, saying that the final outflow of such a
22 plant would have more degradation to the water than these
23 individual septic systems would have .
24 The traffic -- we've heard from our Director of Public
25 Works that, even though this is going to generate a significant
26 amount of additional traffic, it still won' t meet the needs for
Page 148
1 traffic lights and, by my calculations, would still be somewhere
2 under 4 , 000 cars maximum on the most heavily increased road.
3 That' s vehicle trips per day. So I don' t think we've endangered
4 the health of the public there .
5 We have the recommendation from the Department of
6 Planning, that the applicant has met all of the requirements
7 that they put on him to make modifications to do things . And I
8 have a sense -- I don' t -- I can' t point to anything
9 specifically -- that some of those even exceeded what the
10 original requirements were . And the applicant has complied.
I1 So it just seems to me, like in fair play, even though
12 it was previous -- Boards of County Commissioners previous to
13 any of the five of us seated today made commitments under what
14 was the Comprehensive Plan at that time, and the ordinances at
15 that time -- that to say no now changes that, takes away
16 something that I think the applicant has reason to believe he
17 had possession of .
18 So, for that reason, I'm kind of -- I 'm stuck, stuck
19 in the -- in the position that I feel I need to recommend
20 approval of this, based on where it started in 1985 and before .
21 That' s my reason for offering the motion.
22 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Further discussion? Second? Any
23 discussion?
24 COMMISSIONER BAXTER: It' s -- Glenn' s very well
25 covered a lot of the pertinent points . I guess I hesitate to
26 even say this, but I have real problems with the density, real
Page 149
1 problems . And I honestly feel that we' re -- because of what' s
2 been reiterated already, we' re in a position that we've got to
3 live with what was done, almost, and. . . I don' t think it was a
4 wise decision to allow that density out there in the first
5 place . But of all the testimony we've heard today, and -- I
6 haven' t heard enough testimony for me to feel that it was enough
7 of a concern for the health and safety of the people to just
8 turn it down, and obviously have the option to come back with.
9 Something else was in that, which is a different
10 point, but I don' t think we have the authority or the ability to
11 change the density at this point . And although I am very
12 concerned about that, I think I 'm going to have to support the
13 motion.
14 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Further discussion. Commissioner
15 Hall .
16 COMMISSIONER HALL: I guess, with all that said, that,
17 you know, I too have a little concern with the actual zone
18 district as it is right now. It doesn' t seem to be appropriate
19 zoning in the middle of an agricultural area that has no basis
20 for residential development, in my opinion.
21 I go back to the draft resolution that we' re always
22 presented, prior to any kind of a hearing. And within this
23 draft, it says that we have to say that the request is in
24 conformance with Section 28 . 14 of the Weld County Zoning
25 Ordinance . And the first one would be that it is consistent
26 with the Weld County Comprehensive Plan and is compatible with
Page 150
1 future development as permitted, and plans of affected
2 municipalities . And on the second -- or the 2 .A. l . c, I guess it
3 would be, where "the uses, buildings and structures shall be
4 compatible with the existing and future development of the
5 surrounding area, as permitted by the existing zoning, and with
6 future development projected by the Comprehensive Plan and
7 Master Plan of affected municipalities . " I guess I have a real
8 hard time being willing to say that this is consistent and works
9 within that framework.
10 Going through the Comprehensive Plan that we currently
11 have -- not suggesting that it' s completely changed from the
12 1983 Plan -- we talk about the agricultural goal . A.Goal 3 in
13 this particular case talks about discouraging urban-scale
14 development, residential or commercial or industrial, which is
15 not adjacent to existing and incorporated municipalities . We go
16 into the Urban Growth Boundary Development -- Urban Growth
17 Boundary Goal 2 talks about concentrating urban development in
18 or adjacent to existing municipalities or in the I-25 mixed-use
19 development area. This is, in my opinion, urban-scale, if
20 you' re talking 536 lots . Even the residential goals mirror
21 that, basically.
22 It talks about cost-effective services, both in the
23 residential goals and the PUD goals . In this particular case,
24 I have major concerns with roads, adding 21 miles of urban-type
25 roads to the situation where I don' t believe we' ll receive
26 enough tax money to help maintain those roads . I do have
Page 151
1 concerns with water taps . The -- where was it? I have --
2 Agricultural Goal number 8 talks about diverting water for
3 agricultural purposes to residential purposes . It' s to be
4 discouraged.
5 Septic systems -- I'm still not convinced that this is
6 a perfect situation, where septics can not affect the entire
7 groundwater around the area. Law enforcement we deal with every
8 year, where we have a situation where the Sheriff is constantly
9 asking for more people . And the more residents that we keep
10 adding, the more people he' s going to need. And we have only a
11 finite amount of taxpayers' money that we've got that we can
12 work with.
13 So I guess we've got 188 lots out there already. And
14 I think it would be bad for the residents of Weld County, bad
15 for the people within the area, to add another 536 to that .
16 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Comments?
17 COMMISSIONER GEILE : Madame Chairman, a lot of -- I
18 will be a little redundant . I apologize for that, but . . .
19 I think there' s been a significant amount of time
20 passed since 1983 , 1985 . And I think during that period of
21 time, there' s been a significant change . First of all , the
22 water systems, when they reviewed this application back then --
23 the ability of water districts to provide water, I think, has
24 changed, just because of the demands put upon systems for
25 growth.
26 The sewer system -- as far as septic is concerned, I ,
Page 152
1 like Commissioner Hall, have a concern that the impact of this
2 many septic systems in that area -- and in view of the kind of
3 terrain, even in view of the testimony we've heard from
4 witnesses who are professionals -- I still have a major concern
5 that we could be facing some significant problems with the
6 ecosystem in that area and also the environmental system in that
7 area.
8 Transportation has changed. Back in ' 83 , ' 84 , I don' t
9 think there was the type of traffic that was going in and out of
10 this area. And consequently, by adding this number of units,
11 it' s going to put another tremendous impact on our systems,
12 which we' re going to have to look at improving, upgrading in the
13 future . Fire protection, I think, was a lot different then; law
14 enforcement certainly was a lot different then, simply because
15 of the growth.
16 School facilities, I -- even though this is not an
17 area that we totally consider, would have been considered back
18 then. But in looking at it today, the schools are, because of
19 growth, are facing capacity issues . And I 'm not sure that the
20 approach that' s been used in this -- and this is, again, not our
21 area, but it ' s a concern I have -- that the approach used in
22 this would be able to give or to gain the school district much
23 value as far as remuneration.
24 Parks and open space -- there' s been some real
25 concerns about the -- and I know, again, that we don' t have
26 absolute authority, or perhaps there again we could have
Page 153
1 responsibility, for the quality of the reservoir and people
2 using that for recreation. That concerns me . And I think
3 that' s probably a change of what it was back then and what it is
4 today, just simply because of the growth elements that have
5 changed, and have caused certain influences into that, into that
6 reservoir.
7 So, consequently, I feel there has been a major
8 change . There've been major changes since 1983 , ' 84 , which need
9 to be considered in this application today, and especially as it
10 relates to the health, welfare, safety and protection of the
11 people of Weld County. Consequently, the elements that they
12 considered in ' 83 , ' 84 , in reference to health, welfare, safety,
13 protection -- what we' re considering today as far as health,
14 welfare, have changed significantly. So consequently, I will
15 not be supporting the motion today.
16 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Okay. I ' ll just make a few
17 additional comments as well .
18 I truly believe that back in 1983 , when this Change of
19 Zone occurred, that it resulted in faulty zoning, premature at
20 best . And at that time, when they went through the Change of
21 Zone, there were no guarantees of any future approvals . That' s
22 why we have the process of going through a Final Plan, so that
23 that Board or either future Boards have the opportunity to
24 review it and make sure that it is still consistent and that the
25 applicant still meets, or demonstrates that they have met, the
26 conditions or the criteria that are set forth within our Zoning
Page 154
1 Ordinance .
2 And one thing I remember reading, when we went
3 through, when we were talking about the Metro District, was in
4 the conclusions of the Metro District . One of their conclusions
5 actually stated that the existing service in the area to be
6 served by the District is inadequate for both present and
7 projected needs . I found that very ironic, that we went ahead
8 and went with the Change of Zone to have 800 homes, when the
9 conclusions of the District itself said that the existing
10 service was inadequate . I don' t know how they met the Change of
11 Zone criteria at the time .
12 Furthermore, I heard someone else, someone in the
13 audience -- and I think it was maybe Roy Wardell -- who said
14 that there were a lot of people who said "I wish it never
15 happened. " And I 'm going to finish that sentence by saying that
16 I think it would be irresponsible for the Board to continue it .
17 I would agree with Commissioner Hall and Commissioner
18 Geile that the applicant has not demonstrated that he has met
19 the standards 28 . 14 . 1 . 6 . 1, which is the consistency with the
20 Weld County Comprehensive Plan. Nor has the applicant shown
21 that he has met 28 . 14 . 1 . 6 . 3 , which again talks about that the
22 uses would - - permitted would be compatible with existing or
23 future development of the surrounding area. I don' t believe
24 that it is compatible. It' s six miles to the nearest
25 municipality or subdivision-type development . It is outside of
26 an urban growth area.
Page 155
1 I think the negative impact that' s already been talked
2 about to the surrounding farming community -- the sand hills are
3 very fragile . The additional traffic -- I mean, we' re talking
4 about farm-to-market roads in the area that would be impacted by
5 all the additional traffic of an additional up to 4 , 000 more
6 cars, or more. And I think, additionally, as we've talked about
7 before in other land use hearings, with the costs of water, that
8 this would be driving up the cost of water for the surrounding
9 farming community, again making it even more difficult to do
10 farming in the area.
11 Additionally, I don' t believe that it meets -- that
12 the applicant has demonstrated that they meet 28 . 14 . 1 . 6 .4, which
13 talks about the performance standards outlined in Section 35 . 3 ;
14 and very specifically, again, back to the compatibility, under
15 35 . 3 . 1, and that references about the health, safety and
16 welfare; and also 35 . 3 . 3 , where it talks about adequate
17 provision of water and sewer system.
18 I would remind the Board that the applicant does not
19 have the water that he needs for the 500 -- additional 536
20 homes . And the sewer systems -- there are just too many
21 questions about the proliferation of 724 septic systems in this
22 area.
23 And in the Colorado Geological Survey, I still have a
24 concern when they say there is the likelihood of groundwater
25 contamination, failure of leach fields, and of effluent
26 surfacing in undesirable locations . I 've read research myself
Page 156
1 that says that the leaching of pathogens, there' s not any show
2 that that actually happened. We' re not talking necessarily
3 about absorption. We' re talking about the filtration. And I
4 just don' t feel comfortable that this many septic systems can
5 adequately be handled in the area, and I think we will have
6 those types of situations that will start occurring.
7 So, for those reasons, I will be voting against the
8 motion.
9 With that, may we have a roll call vote, please?
10 ESTHER GESICK: Glenn Vaad?
11 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Yes .
12 ESTHER GESICK: Dale Hall?
13 COMMISSIONER HALL : No .
14 ESTHER GESICK: George Baxter?
15 COMMISSIONER BAXTER; Aye .
16 ESTHER GESICK: Mike Geile?
17 COMMISSIONER GEILE : No.
18 ESTHER GESICK: Barb Kirkmeyer?
19 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: No. Okay. The motion fails . There
20 isn' t a need for any other motion, is there?
21 LEE MORRISON: If you want to make a motion to deny,
22 you can. If no one conceivab -- I mean, there could be
23 circumstances where someone could make a different motion for
24 approval, which would pass, if there were changes or something.
25 If you want to make sure, you could make a motion -- someone
26 could make a motion for denial .
Page 157
1 CHAIR KIRKMEYER: Is it the pleasure of the Board to
2 make any further motions? Okay. With that, our business is
3 done today. And the motion did fail , and we are adjourned.
4 (End of proceedings . )
Page 158
CERTIFICATE
I, Loma J. Huh, do certify that the above and
foregoing is a true and accurate transcription to the best of
my ability from the audiotapes provided.
I further certify that I am not agent, attorney, or
counsel for any of the parties hereto, nor am I interested in
the outcome thereof.
Dated this 8th day of November, 2000 .
arm A -4—
Loma J. Hu
Transcriptionist
As witnessed this 8th day of November, 2000 :
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