HomeMy WebLinkAbout20040730.tiff STATE OF COLORADO
WELD COUNTY BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
December 19 , 2001
Discussion/action BEEBE DRAW, 2nd Filing
TRANSCRIPT OF TAPE RECORDED BOARD MEETING
RE : SUBSTANTIAL CHANGE HEARING #20 TO CONSIDER WHETHER OR
NOT THERE HAS BEEN A SUBSTANTIAL CHANGE IN THE FACTS AND
CIRCUMSTANCES REGARDING THE APPLICATION FOR A PLANNED UNIT
DEVELOPMENT FINAL PLAN FOR BEEBE DRAW FARMS , 2ND FILING -
REI , INC . , C/O JIM FELL
COMMISSIONER M. J. GEILE, Chairman
COMMISSIONER GLENN VAAD, Pro-Tem
COMMISSIONER WILLIAM JERKE
COMMISSIONER DAVID LONG
COMMISSIONER ROBERT MASDEN
ALSO PRESENT
ESTHER GESICK, Acting Clerk to the Board
LEE MORRISON, Assistant County Attorney
MONICA MIKA, Planning Department
PAM SMITH, Health Department
FRANK HEMPEN, Public Works Department
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
n
�, _�� _�,t, 2004-0730 �,� cc_t _�
2
SPEAKING TO THE PROPOSAL
JAMES W. FELL, representing the applicant .
DAVID KLINGER, representing the applicant .
DAVID SHUPE, soils engineer, representing the
applicant .
JACQUELINE JOHNSON, Esq. , speaking for the
applicant .
ROY WARDELL, surrounding property owner, pro se .
JILL BAILEY, surrounding property owner, pro se .
DONNA HARR, development property owner, pro se .
STEVEN COOPER, development property owner,
pro se .
CARL JEPSEN, surrounding property owner, pro se .
JOHN JEPSEN, surrounding property owner, pro se .
KENT COBERN, marketing manager, representing the
developer .
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
3
1 [The Weld County Board of County Commissioners
2 meeting as set forth on page one, is transcribed as
3 follows : ]
4 CHAIRMAN GEILE : . . .December 19 . I ' ll call to
5 order the Board of Social Services . We do have one land
6 use - - I mean, the Board of County Commissioners . Excuse
7 me . We do have one land use hearing this morning . Would
8 you take roll call , please, Esther .
9 CLERK GESICK: Bob Masden - here; David Long -
- 10 here; Will Jerke - here; Glenn Vaad - aye - - here . Jim
11 Geile - here .
12 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Let the record show that all
- 13 five commissioners are in attendance . We have one land
14 use hearing before us this morning .
15 I ' ll call up docket 2001-88 which is a
16 substantial change hearing #20 , to consider whether or not
17 there' s been a substantial change in the facts and
- 18 circumstances regarding the application for a PUD, final
19 plan, for Beebe Draw firm, 2nd filing, REI , LLC, in care
20 of Jim Fell , located approximately six miles east of the
21 Town of Platteville, east of and adjacent to Weld County
22 39 , South of and adjacent to Weld County Road 38 , and
23 north of, and adjacent to Weld County Road 32 .
24 Counsel , would you make record, please .
25 MR. MORRISON: Since I can' t find the notice in
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
4
1 the file, I think you've covered it . There we go .
2 The legal description, Section 3 , 4 , 5 , 8 , 9 ,
3 10 , 15 and 17 , in Township 3 North, Range 65 west of the
4 6th PM.
5 Notice is published December 5 , 2001 , in the
6 Tri-Town Farmer and Miner, and evidence of posting has
7 been provided by staff .
8 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Okay. Monica, are you the
9 planner of this party?
- 10 MS . MIKA: Yes, I am. Monica Mika, Department
11 of Planning Services .
12 The case before you today is the consideration
- 13 of a substantial change hearing . And the parcel under
14 consideration is comprised of multiple applications .
15 And what we' re really considering is the 2nd
16 Filing application, and the map on the overhead will show
17 that to you. The areas identified in pink are part of the
- 18 first filing, and that received its final plats .
19 And so we' re really looking at a substantial
20 change or modification in facts and circumstances of those
21 areas defined in orange .
22 In 1984 , the Board of County Commissioners
23 approved change in zone, Z-412 on a 4 , 300 acre parcel
24 of ground, for approximately 800 residential PUD family
25 units , with equestrian and recreational facilities . In
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
5
1 1985 , the first filing for 187 residential lots was
2 approved.
3 In 1986 , the Beebe Draw Metropolitan District
4 was formed and created. On September 13th, 2000 , the
5 Board of County Commissioners denied the second phase,
6 final plat , as 525 requests for the creation of 536
7 residential lots to be identified as shown on above
8 overhead.
9 Under consideration today is the substantial
10 change . Eight referral agencies reviewed this case, and
11 several expressed comments . These concerns will be
- 12 addressed at the final platting stage . The sign for
13 today' s post - - hearing was posted on December 3rd.
14 On November 6th, 2001 , the Planning Commission
15 reviewed this case and found that in fact a change in
16 circumstance, and substantial change had - - had been - -
17 had occurred, and it does recommend a favorable
18 recommendation for the following reasons .
19 Specifically the applicant is proposing to
- 20 modify the original plan to decrease the number of total
21 residential units from 536 to 419 acres . And that
22 reduction will occur in these two areas .
23 In your case file, you do have a copy of the - -
24 what the new proposed plan will look like, as well as the
- 25 map behind me .
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
6
1 This decrease represents a decrease in the
2 ability to have 117 lots , or a 22 percent decrease in the
3 overall number of residential units . Correspondingly,
4 then, the number of residential units will result in a
- 5 60-acre increase in the number of open space dedicated to
6 the sites .
7 This decrease also identifies a total of 1 , 221
8 acres of open space in the second phase, which far exceeds
9 any requirement for open space in the subdivision.
- 10 A reduction in the total number of units will
11 also represent approximately 1 , 000 ADT average daily trips
12 per day reduction, to occur at the subdivision, because of
- 13 the number of decrease in residential units . This will
14 have a notable difference on surrounding roadways .
15 Furthermore, a decrease in the number of
16 residential units will result in the lots being larger .
17 The lots will expand from those lots at the final plat ' s
- 18 proposal from 1 . 6 , to now having the lots be at least 2 . 5
19 acres , which will result in 35 percent of the lots in this
20 phase being changed in size, and increasing the largest
21 lot in the subdivision to be approximately seven acres .
22 Finally, the metropolitan district , which was
- 23 created in 1986 , will take on additional responsibilities .
24 What they are proposing to do will be to levy a fee for
25 services , which will include an annual reinspection fee,
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
7
1 of the leach field, pumping of septic tanks , and also
2 monitoring wells to provide information regarding
3 downstream quality.
4 Ongoing education and proper care of the use
5 of this system for new homeowners, will also become an
6 increased responsibility of the metropolitan district .
7 The Planning Commission did consider the
8 comments and concerns of surrounding property owners ,
9 referral agencies, and they are making a favorable
— 10 recommendation to the board at this time . The applicant
11 is here, as well as several property owners who wish to
12 speak to the board.
— 13 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Are there any questions of
14 Monica? In recalling this case, and I know the applicant
15 is here today to present testimony concerning this
16 substantial change, but when we heard this originally,
17 Commissioner Vaad, and other members of the board, the
- 18 major concerns I had - - and I think when we began to talk
19 about the health, welfare and safety of the people in the
20 area, had to do directly with the soil , and the ability to
21 put septic systems in that soil .
22 And that was pretty well , solidly expressed by
— 23 the Platte Valley Soil Conservation District , and they
24 specifically said, and there' s been a re-quote in the
25 case, soils are limited to septic - - soils are limited for
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
8
1 septic tank absorption.
2 And the other thing was, is it related, even
3 though we had no control or jurisdiction over the Farmers
4 Reservoir, the fact of it is, there was testimony
5 presented at that time, or at least documentation
6 presented in the case at that time, that dealt
7 specifically with water quality issues of the reservoir .
8 And I think they used things which was re-quoted
9 in the case, or a letter that we received that' s entered
- 10 into the case, said specifically the water quality were
11 big issues as it related to pea-soup algae and bad odor
12 and high nitrates and phosphates, which means there' s an
13 awful lot coming into that reservoir, and it' s simply
14 because it is an agriculture storage reservoir .
- 15 And so there was a concern expressed at the time
16 of the health, welfare, safety of the people going down to
17 that reservoir, and using that lake, specifically if it
18 was marketed specifically as an opportunity or an amenity
19 to this subdivision.
20 So those are the reasons why I - - it didn' t have
21 so much to do with the number of units that were being
22 added. It was more or less as it related directly to the
- 23 health, safety, welfare of the people in the area .
24 Now, they've dealt with the traffic, somewhat ,
25 with the 20 percent reduction. But my - - I guess my
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
9
1 question is -- but maybe this is not you, Monica, but
- 2 maybe the Health Department - - you know, if we' re talking
3 about a constant seepage of -- because of the condition of
4 the soil , with another 400-and -- 419 units, if we' re
5 talking about that kind of absorption that' s actually
6 leaking down into the reservoir, all we' re doing is
7 compounding the problem of the reservoir, and it just goes
8 on and on and on.
9 And I ' m not sure that that' s dealing with the
- 10 health, safety, welfare of the people in the area, because
11 of the concern I do have with what it ' s going to do with
12 the aquifer and also the water table to be absorbed.
13 So anyway, that was one of the major reasons
14 that I had, when this was originally denied. So I guess ,
- 15 Pam, my question might be, is in view of what they' re
16 pro- - - is what they' re proposing going to be able to deal
17 with - - and one other thing :
18 I thought it was pretty well said, you know,
19 that they ought to be looking at some kind of a public
20 sewage system. You know, they formed a metropolitan
21 district , and that they should be looking at a public
22 sewage system to treat the sewage, and actually have some
- 23 kind of a release, you know, somewhere that would be more
24 favorable, I guess you might say, as far as environmental
25 and also health, safety, welfare of the people in
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
10
1 the area .
- 2 So having said all of that , Pam, maybe you could
3 deal with that issue, or somebody can, from our point of
4 view.
5 MS . SMITH : Pam Smith, Health Department . What
6 they are proposing to do -- the perc rates out there, on
7 most of the lots that we have done, work on - - do require
8 engineered septic systems , because the sand is so fine .
9 It ' s a real fine sugar sand. Perc rates are less than
- 10 five minutes an inch, just to give you a little bit of
11 background on some regulatory points of it .
12 When you have soils that perc that fast , there
13 is considered to be no treatment of effluent through
14 that - - through that soil , before it were to hit a water
- 15 table, or some other limiting zone, whether it be a
16 shallow clay layer that can purge a water table or various
17 other things .
18 One of the ways to accommodate that , and to
19 adjust for that is to either over-excavate in the leach
20 field area and replace all of that soil , with a soil that
21 does have a slower perc rate, where you will get treatment
22 through that soil , and so that - - and you replace it to a
- 23 depth of four feet, because that ' s what the state and
24 the county regulations require, is that you have four
25 foot of suitable soil before you were to go into any
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
11
1 unsuitable soil .
2 What they' ve done out there now, with the septic
3 systems they' ve had is, they either over-excavate, and
4 completely replace all the soil with the soil with the - -
5 with the more of a silty material , and then line the sides
6 of that replacement area, so that that effluent only goes
7 down and doesn' t go sideways , doesn' t do any lateral
8 movement , taking the path of least resistence through
9 the - - through the sugar sand, and put the system in on
10 top of that . That is an approved method by the state and
11 the county.
- 12 What the applicant is proposing is to do a sand
13 filter system, which is -- which is another type of
14 engineered septic system, similar in many ways , where the
15 sand is of - - it' s still a sand - - it' s called a sand
16 filter, because it goes through a sand, but it ' s a - - a
- 17 finer sand. There' s more silt in it .
18 It still slows down the effluent - - the movement
19 of effluent through that, so that you get treatment ,
20 before you were to hit any unsuitable soil , to filter out
21 any passages of bacteria, and those kinds of things .
22 The other key component to septic systems is the
23 maintenance, and that' s one of the things that the county
24 has always -- well , in the last seven or eight years ,
- 25 we've given out brochures where we do a final inspection
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
12
1 on septic system maintenance, and do' s and don' t ' s, trying
2 to educate the public .
3 The library, I believe, has a copy of all this
4 literature . Some of the septic tank cleaners have this,
5 that they give out when they go out and pump tanks .
6 Some of our installers have it . Some of our engineers
7 have it , that they supply in their information, so we try
8 to cover a lot of different avenues to educate the public
9 about maintenance of septic systems , because that is a key
10 component to it .
11 What this proposal has done through their
- 12 metropolitan district is added that component to their
13 routine maintenance, and it takes it under the -- instead
14 of right now, most of the - - most of the areas of the
15 county, it' s up to the homeowner to decide when to pump
16 his tank, if it ever needs to be pumped, according to
17 their perception.
18 Most of the time, that only gets pumped when it
19 fails, but there' s no routine pumping and maintenance and
- 20 servicing of that system, to make sure that everything is
21 working correctly.
22 What the metropolitan district has done is
23 similar to a couple other subdivisions that have been
24 approved, where the maintenance of those septic systems is
- 25 put into the homeowners association, or in this particular
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
13
1 case, the metropolitan district where the homeowners pay a
2 fee, and the metropolitan district takes care of the
3 maintenance and the inspection of those systems , to make
4 sure that they' re functioning correctly.
5 There is a set of guidelines out by the EPA that
6 just came out about a year and a half ago, talking about
7 decentralized wastewater treatment systems . There' s a
8 couple of different ways that you can do that .
9 You can go from an individual septic system that
- 10 is under normal ownership control . They take care of
11 their own system; they take care of all the maintenance of
12 their own system, any repairs that need to be done ; all
13 the way up to septic systems that are either individual on
14 each lot , which this one is proposing to do, or where they
- 15 have individual septic tanks on each lot , and then piping
16 that takes that effluent from the tank to a central leach
17 field, for final treatment and disposal .
18 The degree of - - there' s I think six different
19 levels according to what the EPA has laid out . This one
20 falls under, like, level -- I believe it' s either three or
21 four, as far as ownership and maintenance . It ' s still
22 owned by the individual property owner; all of the
- 23 maintenance falls under the metropolitan district .
24 I believe how this one is set up, the
25 metropolitan district , if they find that a septic
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
14
1 system is failing, they can order repairs to be made, and
2 start the process to repair that failing system, and then
3 charge that back to the individual lot owner, which makes
4 this utility not under the individual ownership of the
5 property owner, as far as maintenance and management and
6 repairs .
7 So it' s similar to your sewer system in town, or
8 your -- your electricity or gas , of any of those things .
9 You' re responsible for it to a point , and then the
10 utility - - you pay the utility to take care of the rest
11 of it , and that' s what this one has - - this proposal has
12 done, in this change .
13 And what they' ve also done, too, is they' ve gone
14 back and they' ve included phase one, or filing one, and
15 under this umbrella of the metropolitan district , which
16 they didn' t - - they probably didn' t have to do, and then
17 we would have had a filing one that could have been under
18 the ownership and the -- the repairs of the individual lot
19 owner at their discretion or under the health department ' s
20 suggestion when we came out on a failing septic system,
21 and then the other part of it would have fallen under the
22 metropolitan district .
23 They' ve included both filings under the umbrella
24 of the metropolitan district, which takes the
25 responsibility for maintenance and repairs out of
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
15
1 the individual property owner' s hands, and brings it
2 under that umbrella, so that there' s consistency
3 throughout all the lots .
4 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Okay. Who is the owner - -
5 maybe I could ask this of the applicant . Who is the owner
6 of the septic system? Is it the utility, the metropolitan
7 district , or is it the homeowner, the property owner? I
8 can - - I can ask that - - that might clear up --
9 MS . SMITH : That ' s probably a better question to
10 ask the applicant .
11 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Okay. Are there any questions
- 12 of the staff? Counsel , you keep looking bewildered.
13 MR . MORRISON: Well , I - - it ' s - - I think I ' d
14 suggest the board focus on the substantial change
- 15 provision, and I think staff ' s testimony regarding what
16 they' re proposing is relevant . But to the extent it deals
17 with how this is different from the initial proposal for
18 the second filing, it' s relevant .
19 It ' s - - it would require further full hearings
- 20 by the planning commission and by your board before a
21 second filing could be approved. And so the decision
22 today on your part is to determine whether to allow that
23 application to proceed, and not -- not determine the
24 merits of that application, since it isn' t yet before you .
— 25 CHAIRMAN GEILE : I understand that , counsel .
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
16
1 The only reason for bringing that up was because it was
2 very important during the first hearing, and I wanted to
3 see if part of the substantial change also related to the
4 sewage system.
5 And I know the applicant is going to be getting
6 into that this morning, but I wanted to make it clear that
7 that was one of the concerns I had when we - - and I know
8 we' re not hearing the case this morning . We' re just
9 looking for substantial change, so - - did you have
- 10 anything else, Monica?
11 MS . SMITH : No, sir .
12 CHAIRMAN GEILE : If not , is the applicant or a
13 representative of the applicant here this morning? If so,
14 could you please come forth and give your name and address
- 15 for the record?
16 Is it cold in here, Monica? Want us to turn the
17 heat on? Good morning, sir.
18 MR . FELL : Good morning . My name is James W.
19 Fell , F-E-L-L. I live at 11409 West 17th Place in
- 20 Lakewood - - and I think that' s what you wanted. I ' m - - am
21 I speaking so that everybody can hear?
22 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Yes .
23 MR. FELL : Okay. My name is Jim Fell . I have
24 been the development manager of this project and also the
- 25 president of the metropolitan district since 1992 .
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
17
1 We certainly appreciate the fact that you' re
2 willing to consider our petition for re-hearing, because
3 of substantial change . I think after you hear this ,
4 you' ll agree that we are making substantial changes .
5 In December, 1984 , the Weld County Board of
6 Commissioners approved a change of zone from agriculture
7 until -- to a Planned Unit Development of over 800
8 residential units with septic systems . This change in
9 zone is still in effect , and our present objective is to
10 get an approval of a development plan for this filing two .
11 We've spent over a million 600 thousand dollars
— 12 on this project already, which included bringing utilities
13 to the project sufficient to serve all of the - - all of
14 the units . We have natural gas , telephone, electricity,
15 and all of the roads will be paved, and all of these
16 things were part of our plan for the development .
17 Our original plan was really to develop this in
18 smaller phases , similar to filing one, or smaller filings .
19 But we decided to go ahead and file the whole plat , the
- 20 remainder of the plat , and agree to develop it in phases
21 of 30 to 50 lots , as they are needed.
22 After our plan was denied by the Board of
23 Commissioners last fall , we retained David Klinger, a
24 renowned land planner, to re-work our plan, so that it
— 25 fell - - fell within the things that had been mentioned in
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
18
1 that denial .
2 David Klinger is well known, all over . He' s had
3 superb community planning, including two coveted Golden
4 Nugget Awards , a sensible growth award from the National
5 Association of Homebuilders in Better Homes and Garden;
6 Professional Building in the National Association of
7 Homebuilders honored David with a prestigious lifetime
8 achievement award for land planning. His environmental
9 planning activities were featured nationally on the Home
10 and Gardens Dream Builders .
11 In redoing our plan, he eliminated a number of
- 12 lots , he increased the size of the lots , and increased the
13 open space, and in general , made substantial changes in
14 the greatly improved plan.
15 I would like to introduce David Klinger so he
16 can continue with the rest of this presentation. Any
- 17 questions?
18 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Are there questions of Mr.
19 Fell? Thank you, sir.
- 20 MR. FELL : Thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN GEILE : If you' d please give your name
22 and address for the record.
23 MR. KLINGER: Yes . Good morning, commissioners .
24 My name is David A. Klinger, president of David Klinger
- 25 and Associates , 21759 Cabrini Boulevard, Golden, Colorado .
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
19
1 Mr . Commissioners , I am hoping that we will be
2 able to convince you today that there has been substantial
3 changes in this plan that would warrant us going ahead,
4 and filing another application for the second filing of
5 this project .
6 I ' m going to be -- try to be very brief . It ' s
7 hard for land planners to be brief, but I ' m sure you would
8 appreciate that .
9 CHAIRMAN GEILE : We would appreciate it .
10 MR . KLINGER : I ' m going to be the first speaker,
11 and then David Shupe, who is an expert in these individual
12 septic designs - - septic systems , will discuss the
13 substantial changes in the septic systems .
14 And Mr. -- Is it Mr . Gell? Is that how you
— 15 pronounce your name, sir?
16 CHAIRMAN GEILE : It ' s Gyle (pronouncing) .
17 MR . KLINGER: Yes , sir .
18 CHAIRMAN GEILE : That' s all right .
19 MR . KLINGER: Okay. I agree that this - - if the
20 septic systems are not correctly built and maintained,
21 that this is a problem. And I think that Mr . Shupe will
22 show you how we' ve made substantial changes in these
23 septic systems since that last hearing.
24 Then Jackie Johnson will close on remarks , and
25 Jackie has been involved in this team for a number of
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
20
1 months . We met a number of months ago on this problem,
- 2 and then we discussed all the issues that you raised at
3 your hearing where it was denied.
4 We took these issues very seriously, and so
5 we' ve been working hard to alleviate and change this plan,
6 so that this can be a quality community that you' ll be
7 proud of .
8 The first thing I did was go out to the
9 property, and spend a lot of time out there, looking at
- 10 the site, walking the land, and to qualify for substantial
11 change, I felt that one of the things we should do is
12 reduce the number of lots out there .
13 I think it' s important , also, to note that since
14 the last time this was presented, that there has been a
- 15 number of homes built out there . Over 57 lots now have
16 been sold and closed, and there are 38 homes occupied out
17 there on the subdivision.
18 And we' ve talked with people who live out there .
19 They love living there. They really enjoy living there .
- 20 And so the average price of the homes now is
21 over $400 , 000 , and so it ' s really becoming a quality
22 community. And we' re going to have homeowners here , I
- 23 believe, that are going to testify that they want this
24 project to go forward and be completed, to some degree,
25 close to what it was in 1982 , when it was approved for
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
21
1 over 800 .
2 We submitted to the Planning Commission, and I
3 think you have it in your file, over 60 petitions asking
4 the county to approve the substantial change and allow us
- 5 to go forward with the second plat . I think that' s in
6 your file .
7 Now, the first thing I did, of course, as I
8 said, was to reduce the density by approximately 117 lots .
9 And I don' t want to spend time going through the plan,
- 10 because if you approve this substantial change, then when
11 we come back, I ' ll go through the various things we' ve
12 done . But from the initial plan, to the plan behind me, I
13 have been - - reduced the number of lots by 117 .
14 The other thing I did was , to increase the open
15 space dramatically, by 60 acres , so the new plan will have
16 over 1 , 021 acres of open space . And that ' s what the
17 people like out there . They like the openness , and all
- 18 the open space weaving through the project . Well , they' re
19 going to have lots of pedestrian trails , and some areas
20 will be for equestrian use .
21 The septic systems, Mr. Shupe will address . But
22 I think one of the most important aspects of what we did
- 23 with this new plan was to increase the minimum lot size to
24 two and a half acres .
25 The previous plan had lots that were in the 1 . 7 ,
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
22
1 1 . 8 - - and I read your testimony in the minutes that you
2 were concerned about the lot sizes , so that all of the
3 lots now comply with all the requirements for size of lots
4 with Weld County requirements .
5 The other thing to bring out is the - - is the
6 maintenance of these systems . You know, quite a large
7 percentage of homes in this country are on septic systems ,
8 but most of them are maintained by individual owners . A
9 lot of people don' t even know when their septic tank is
10 full , and they wonder why the septic field is having a
11 problem.
12 With this system, where the septic systems would
13 be under the full control of the metro district , I think
14 this starts to set a new standard for septic systems , so
15 that maintenance will be forthcoming throughout the life
16 of the project , and should reduce a lot of problems . With
17 respect to the soils, Mr. Shupe will get into that in
18 great detail .
19 Some of the lots in this new plan actually are
20 as large as 6 . 7 acres . So this density in lot size, I
21 think, is a big change that warrants substantial change in
22 the project .
23 By reducing 117 lots out of here, we also reduce
24 the traffic . Traffic will be reduced by somewhere around
25 1 , 000 average trips per day, to and from the site .
L-MAC R & T 303 .798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
23
1 The developer relying on the approval of the
- 2 overall plan at that time, has now - - and I think some
3 of this has happened since that last hearing - - has now
4 dedicated the land to the school district . They now own
5 this property.
6 And the fire station has been dedicated, and
7 those are up at the north portion of the property. And
8 they've worked with the fire department and the school
9 district very closely on this dedication.
- 10 I have a little handout which I ' d like to just
11 give to each one of you for a second, then I ' ll conclude,
12 if that ' s all right , Mr . Chairman.
13 I have these photos we prepared, and I ' d just
14 like to go through them briefly with you . If you' ll get
- 15 past the plan.
16 The photograph marked number one is the marina .
17 The developer has now installed this marina at a cost of
18 600 thousand. And I listened to your concern about the
19 lake . Let me just address that briefly.
- 20 The lake reservoir does have an algae problem,
21 but most of the year, it' s a beautiful amenity. And we
22 provided in our covenants and instructed our homeowners
23 that there be no skin contact allowed in the reservoir .
24 This is strictly a boating situation. That' s why we
25 built the marina, and it' s a fishing - - excellent fishery
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
24
1 out there .
2 There' s a number of fish surviving in the
3 reservoir . In fact , there' s been over 10 , 000 fish
4 recently planted.
- 5 And in looking at this overall site, I also have
6 worked with the U. S . Bureau of Reclamation, and we have
7 set aside, on this new plan, extensive environmental
s zones, and bird sanctuaries and environmental buffers , all
9 along the land where these lots abut the reservoir . So
- 10 the birds are thriving out there . The wildlife is
11 thriving .
12 Yes , this water is not the proper water to
13 drink, or to swim in, but most of the year, it' s a
14 beautiful amenity, and if it ' s just set up for boating and
- 15 bird watching, it ' s a great visual amenity for our
16 homeowners .
17 Our number two shot here indicates the entrance
- 18 to the project , with the guardhouse .
19 The third photo is the information center, which
20 has been built by the developer at a cost of over
21 $250 , 000 . This will be deeded to the homeowners when the
22 lot sales have been completed. It' s a beautiful building,
- 23 utilizing national park architecture .
24 The fourth photo, is a photo of the water
25 reservoir. This reservoir has been built based on the
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
25
1 anticipation of building this project out as was approved.
2 It ' s a 1 . 6 million dollar reservoir, and the developer has
3 contributed over $500 , 000 of his funds , as his share, to
4 build this reservoir. So they have an excellent water
- 5 supply out there .
6 And the last photo in this little package, shows
7 the clubhouse, which is going to be built out there near
8 the marina . And basically, that will be the community
9 center for the use and enjoyment of all these residents .
- 10 So the developer, relying on that approved plan,
11 has spent over 1 . 6 million dollars of his funds at this
12 point . To only allow him to build phase one would be a
13 serious financial burden on the developer, inasmuch as he
14 spent all this additional money, and he' s also brought
15 in all the gas mains as far away as two miles to the
16 property.
17 In summary, we have reduced the density by over
18 20 percent from the plan that was originally proposed. We
19 have filed a complete maintenance plan by the district for
20 all the septic systems , and that' s been finalized. The
21 average lot sizes have been increased. Traffic has been
22 decreased by 1 , 000 trips per day, and evidence to support
- 23 an adequate water supply, and other utilities for the
24 additional 419 lots has been provided.
25 Central Weld County Water District has agreed by
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
26
1 contract to serve sufficient potable water for up to 800
2 homes on this property. We' re asking for 419 additional
3 homes .
4 So for those reasons , Mr . Chairman, and
5 gentlemen of the Commission, we think that this warrants a
6 substantial change . Of course, if you approve this, we' ll
7 come back with detailed review and discussions regarding
8 the specific plan in question. And I ' m here to answer any
9 questions , and if there are none, then I ' ll turn it over
10 to Mr . Shupe .
11 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Are there any questions for Mr .
12 Klinger? I think you' ve done a very thorough job . Thank
13 you, Mr. Klinger .
14 MR . KLINGER: Thank you very much. Thank you,
15 sir . Thank you.
16 CHAIRMAN GEILE : If you' d please give your name
17 and address for the record.
18 MR . SHUPE : Mr . Chairman, and members of the
19 Commission, my name is David Shupe . I ' m a Colorado
20 Registered Engineer . My address is 7525 Joel Place in the
21 Loveland area, 80537 .
22 I ' m an experienced soils engineer with more than
23 35 years of background in septic system design and use .
24 In fact , in 1966 , I served on a Colorado State Health
25 Department Committee, which actually wrote the original
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
27
1 state ISDS regulations .
2 I too have had concerns regarding the soils in
3 the proposed development , because that ' s my job, is to
4 determine what - - what kind of soils they are, because
5 most people -- the main thing they want to know about
6 sewage, is that when you push that little silver handle
7 down, it goes away. And that' s not enough for septic
8 system use .
9 These soils have been extensively investigated
10 for their suitability for this type of individual septic
11 system use . As most of you are aware, it ' s largely blow
12 sand. We - - where I live, we kid about it being the
13 topsoil from Larimer County, and it' s all one size,
14 because it was wind deposited, and that ' s where that size
15 dropped out when the velocity of the wind reduced to where
16 it could no longer carry that size of particle .
17 The - - if you look at the soils report , you' ll
18 see that the gradations are extremely unique . The
19 gradation curve is a curve that' s established by the size
20 of the particles on each particular sieve that' s used in
21 the analysis .
22 These curves in this area are a straight ,
23 vertical line, because there is no variation in the size
24 of the particles , and this goes down to a depth of about
25 35 feet . No significant groundwater table was noted to
L-MAC R & T 303 .798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
28
1 that level , I might add.
2 But what this results in is a very rapid
3 percolation rate, and it is not conducive to the kind of
4 treatment that you want to have occur in a septic system.
5 And so what we have proposed to do, as you heard Pam
6 outline, is to actually install a four-foot thick sand
7 filter, which is a well graded sand, which slows the
8 percolation rate down to approximately -- in the range of
9 15 to 20 minutes per inch. But it also provides sufficient
- 10 time for a biomat to form on the surface of the filter,
11 and for actual treatment to occur .
12 The soils lend themselves to this , and what
13 we' re doing is providing secondary treatment in this - - in
14 this filter bed, as opposed to just the primary treatment ,
- 15 which the tank normally provides , and which occurs in the
16 average septic system, whose primary goal is disposal .
17 Here we' re actually treating the effluent before
18 it reaches the soils themselves , and the soils then become
19 used for dispersal , rather than disposal .
20 Sand filtration is one of the oldest methods of
21 sewage treatment known to man, and it ' s still one of the
22 more effective ones . And in fact , the only real reason
- 23 why most cities or municipalities don' t use it , is because
24 they don' t have enough room.
25 And so we' ve developed other methods , extended- -
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
29
1 extended aeration, which take less room, but they' re also
2 a bit more dangerous when they go wrong . And I can' t
3 stress that enough.
4 One of the reasons the EPA has come up with the
5 guidelines that Pam mentioned is because of the dangers of
6 large megapolitan systems malfunctioning . When they do,
7 they release pollutants on a scale that is almost
8 unbelievable, besides being unacceptable .
9 You heard Mr. Klinger mention the fact that all
10 of the lots are now two and a half acres in size . We also
11 would call to your attention that the gross density of the
12 area, on which PUD' s are normally judged, is almost six
13 acres per unit , and that' s more than two and a half times ,
14 or about two and a half times the area required by the
15 current Weld County regulations regarding septic systems .
16 Our proposal places the design and the
17 installation of each system under the joint supervision of
18 the Weld County Health Department and the Beebe Draw
19 Metropolitan District , which covers all filings of the
20 subdivision. That is, it covers both the first and the
21 second filing. And systems that will be built from now
22 on in the first filing, will be covered by this proposal
23 as well .
24 The proposed ongoing maintenance, which will
25 include pumping of the tanks at a regular interval , field
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
30
i inspection and groundwater monitoring - - and this will be
2 provided by the district and reported to the Weld County
3 Health Department .
4 And the cost of such a maintenance program will
5 be included in the taxes paid to the district by each
6 homeowner, according to the financial structure set forth
7 in the district service plan. And revision, as necessary,
8 to the service plan is currently underway by the attorney
9 who prepared the original service plan.
10 To my knowledge, such a highly organized and
11 maint- - - supervision and maintenance plan for ISDS
12 systems has not been proposed before in Weld County,
13 although such systems do occur elsewhere in the country.
14 I understand that you have proposed - - or have approved
15 one or two recently, which place the maintenance
16 responsibilities with a homeowners association . I would
17 submit that this is not the same thing .
18 A homeowners association has a limited lifespan
19 and it ' s limited largely by the interest of the people in
20 the development . And while that ' s a step in the right
21 direction, it is nowhere near the kind of proposal that we
22 are making here, to include it in a metropolitan district ,
23 which is essentially a quasi-municipal entity, and which
24 has powers of taxation, and will be able to survive the
25 homeowners .
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
31
1 Homeowners associations sometimes do not survive
2 the homeowners themselves . I have lived in one for 27
3 years , and am currently the septic system manager for our
4 subdivision, and I know some of the pitfalls that can
5 befall a homeowners association. Unless it is a corporate
6 structure, it does not have a life of its own, so to
— 7 speak, and certainly does not have powers of taxation.
8 So while you have approved this kind of thing,
9 and as I say, I believe that' s a step in the right
io direction for septic system management , this proposal is a
11 very firm one, and one which will result in, I believe ,
12 excellent management of the septic systems involved.
13 It will also guarantee that groundwater quality
14 will continue to be monitored as it respects the reservoir
- 15 and other areas of the development .
16 weld County Health Department personnel have
17 been a party to the development of our proposal right from
18 the beginning . And we have appreciated the - - both their
19 concern and concerted efforts to work with us on the
- 20 development of this proposal .
21 The plan now is in compliance with new county
22 subdivision regulations, and with current health
23 department regulations regarding inspection and
24 management . By that I mean that they know that they
25 don' t have the personnel to provide this level of
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
32
1 supervision of septic systems . A metropolitan district
2 can do it , and will do it , in this case .
3 I prepared the service plan addendum, which
4 outlines the sewage disposal , and you may very well have a
5 copy of this in your packet . I think it describes
6 adequately the things which I have stated here . And I
7 have a copy of the salient points , which I 've made this
8 morning, that I ' d like to give to you. If you have any
9 questions, I ' d be glad to answer them.
- 10 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Are there any questions , board?
11 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Just one, and not to be
12 redundant , sir, by who - - who owns the septic system?
13 Does the metropolitan district , or does the homeowner?
14 MR. SHUPE : No. The homeowner will own the
15 septic system, but it will be - - it' s designed - -
16 CHAIRMAN GEILE : It' s encumbered?
17 MR . SHUPE : - - and supervision of its
- 18 installation will be provided by the district , in
19 conjunction with the approval of the county health
20 department .
21 But the homeowner will maintain ownership of it .
22 It just will not be responsible for the maintenance of it .
- 23 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Are there -- Commissioner Vaad.
24 COMMISSIONER VAAD : May I ask one other
25 question?
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
33
1 MR. SHUPE : Certainly.
2 COMMISSIONER VAAD : In Monica' s presentation to
3 us , she mentioned down gradient test wells .
4 MR. SHUPE : Yes .
5 COMMISSIONER VAAD : And that will be a
6 responsibility of the district to - -
7 MR. SHUPE : That' s correct .
8 COMMISSIONER VAAD : - - and so in the event you
9 test the well , and something' s going on, what happens
10 then?
11 MR . SHUPE : Well , something will have to be done
12 to - - to find the system that may not be functioning as it
13 should, and correct it , and that - - the wells will be
14 located in such a way that we can narrow that - - that
15 search down.
16 COMMISSIONER VAAD : And so it ' s - - are the
17 procedures for the search and the subsequent action, are
18 they written down someplace about what will happen?
19 MR . SHUPE : I think - - I think not , so far as I
20 know, but because of the experience that I ' ve had over the
21 years , and my continued involvement with this project , I
22 have some -- I have some real good ideas and knowledge
23 about how to do that .
24 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Should -- just from my
25 perspective, should you be successful in what you' re
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
34
1 applying for today, I think that would be a reasonable
2 expectation, if you' d come back with a procedure as to
3 what you would do in the event that -- I know it' s early
4 in the process, but --
-- 5 MR. SHUPE : We can certainly do that . I should
6 point out to you, however, that sand filters are
7 relatively easy to repair, because all you have to do is
8 scrape off the initial surface, lower the pipes just a
9 little bit , and away you go, again.
- 10 We have proposed, in our generic design that the
11 sand filter be four feet deep, rather than the two-foot
12 minimum, which the U. S . Public Health Service recommends,
13 and the lifespan of such a system, especially when
14 properly managed - - and the key here, is the pumping of
- 15 the septic tanks at the appropriate times . And that ' s why
16 the annual inspection.
17 The lifespan of the sand filter bed should
18 exceed 25 years before any significant maintenance needs
19 to be done . But we do intend, as I said, to provide
20 monitoring wells , and to continue to monitor groundwater
21 quality.
22 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Are there any other questions?
- 23 Thank you very much, sir. Good morning, Jackie .
24 MR. JOHNSON: Good morning, gentlemen. As was
25 mentioned before, I am counsel for the applicant , but I ' m
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
35
1 really here more today as an historian than as a - - an
2 attorney.
3 It' s hard for me to believe that in 1985 , I was
4 sitting where you are, and was one of the ones who was
5 responsible for approval of this PUD . And I just want to
6 provide a little historical perspective here, and appeal
7 to your sense of fundamental fairness , I guess , as you
8 consider your decision.
9 When we heard this application for a change of
10 zone, and the initial development of the PUD, we
11 recognized that this was a unique situation; that the
12 amenity of Milton Reservoir had a lot to do with where
13 this particular development was placed.
14 And we also recognized that there were
15 potentials for problems in a development such as this , and
16 that we were going to have to rely on imposing certain
17 conditions on the developer, and expecting the developer
18 to meet those conditions .
19 I think when we made -- when we made our
20 commitment , and the commitment conditioned upon the
21 developer doing what was required of him, there was also
22 an implied reverse to that, to the developer, that we
23 would keep our commitment as well . And that if they did
24 what they said they would do, we would do what we had said
25 we would do.
L-MAC R & T 303 .798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
36
1 I ' m here to tell you that these developers - -
- 2 and you all know this as well as I - - but not all
3 developers keep their word. These developers have done
4 so, and they have done so big time .
5 They have expended a great deal of money and
6 reliance on our promises . They have created a metropolitan
7 district ; they have constructed improvements ; they have
8 maintained a high quality of development in this - - in
9 this environment .
- 10 And even beyond that , at the point when they
11 were denied a year or so ago, they took very seriously the
12 concerns that were raised by some of you on this board,
13 and other commissioners , and have made a genuine effort to
14 substantially change their application to address those
- 15 concerns .
16 I ' m not going to repeat all of those changes .
17 You' ve heard them many times now.
18 But the density is decreased; the traffic is
19 decreased. The amenities - - the open-space amenities are
- 20 greater, and there has been a genuine effort to address
21 the fair concerns about the disposal of waste materials in
22 this environment .
23 I think as you make your consideration today,
24 and hopefully later, it' s important to bear in mind that
25 this is a project that ' s going to develop over a number of
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
37
1 years, and the impacts are not going to be immediate , and
2 they' re not going to be all at once, for the size of the
3 development .
4 So I guess all I really want to say to you is , I
5 ask you to remember that the developer relied on our
6 approval and had to, in order to make the kinds of
7 infrastructure commitments that he has made for the full
8 buildout of this development , to recognize that the
9 developer has kept his share of the bargain; has
- 10 maintained the quality and has addressed all concerns with
11 respect to substantial change .
12 And one other group that I think needs to be
13 recognized, anyone of the homeowners that bought - - have
14 bought homes and lots in this development , expecting that
- 15 this development will build out , and if the amenities that
16 they believe they purchased at great expense will be
17 available to them, because the development will be of a
18 size that can support those amenities .
19 So I 'm not going to say any more to you. I
- 20 appreciate your consideration, and the hope that you will
21 understand and will agree with us that there has been a
22 substantial change in this application. Thank you.
23 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Thank you, Jackie . Are there
24 any questions of Jackie this morning? Commissioner Vaad.
25 COMMISSIONER VAAD : Jackie, maybe you could help
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
38
1 me - - check to see if I was understood about what I was
2 asking for . I mean, we had the test wells . That' s good;
3 that' s a good thing to do.
4 But when the test wells, if it should ever
5 happen, shows that there' s a problem, that' s not the time
6 to decide, now what do we do? I would like and would
7 expect a set of procedures in place entered, if - - like
8 I said, if you' re successful today - - saying this is what
9 we' ll do . And this is a timeline, and this is how we' ll
- 10 comply.
11 MS . JOHNSON: I understood you loud and clear,
12 sir. And yes , I agree with you. I think that ' s an
- 13 important thing to have, and I believe that that will be
14 provided to you, if we come before you with an
15 application.
16 COMMISSIONER VAAD : Thank you.
17 MR. MORRISON: Can I add a comment . I think
- 18 that this may require an amendment to the service plan for
19 the metropolitan district . And it may be that that ' s the
20 more appropriate place for those procedures to be
21 established.
22 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Okay. And I would just like
- 23 an assurance that that will happen.
24 MR. MORRISON: Well , you' ll see it one way or
25 the other, if it does go forward, because an amendment to
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
39
1 the service plan would also require your involvement .
2 COMMISSIONER VAAD: Yes, I ' m sure . Thank you .
3 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Prior approval . Yes . Is there
4 anyone else, Mr. Fell , that you wish to present your case?
5 MR. FELL : No . This will conclude it .
6 CHAIRMAN GEILE : If not I ' ll conclude that . And
7 this is a public hearing. Is there anyone in the audience
8 who wishes to speak to this appli- -- if so, would you
9 please come forth and give your name and address for the
_ 10 record?
11 MR . WARDELL: My name is Roy Wardell . I live at
- 12 18253 Weld County Road 32 . My ranch that I - - my wells
13 borders on a significant portion of the Pelican Lake
14 development .
- 15 I ' m going to - - there' s a couple things I
16 haven' t really saw a place to say until - - is it Ms .
17 Johnson? Is that right? Spoke . And I was at these
18 hearings way back when -- my grandfather homesteaded on
19 part of the ranch, so I ' ve been involved in this .
- 20 And I wanted to say that , contrary to what Ms .
21 Johnson said, that I think there' s some things that were
22 promised that were not done . And I ' m not sure - - and I
23 feel bad for all of us in this situation. I really do .
24 I think we' ve all been put in a situation,
25 including Mr. Fell , and the people that live there, and
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
40
1 myself , and you people as commissioners at this point .
2 Because I think - - I don' t think that would be approved
3 today, and I don' t think it should have been approved
4 then.
5 And I think at that point , Mr . Burke, who was
6 the original person, sold people a bill of goods . And I
7 think there are some reasons I could justify that , or back
8 that up.
9 One of the things that was not done that was
10 promised is , he was going to pave the roads . I questioned
11 that at the time . And at that point , got rather
- 12 reprimanded that -- by legal counsel at that point that
13 those questions had been covered, and that thing - - that
14 part would be taken care of .
15 That was never done, and finally the county
16 paved the roads , and I would guess , if you look back on
- 17 some things , there are some other things that were
18 promised that weren' t delivered.
19 So I wanted -- I wanted to be able to say I
- 20 don' t think we necessarily have to feel a moral
21 obligation. I feel concerned for all of us in this
- 22 situation, Mr. Fell included, that there has been a
23 substantial investment . Okay. And I ' ll speak to the
24 substantial change just a little bit .
- 25 But I really want to - - I don' t think we have to
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
41
1 do it , if it' s not a good idea. I don' t care if it was
2 approved at some point . If it ' s not a good idea for the
3 county and the people that live in the county, it' s still
4 not a good idea.
5 The density cut thing is 20 percent . That ' s
6 reducing from 700 to 600 - - those are the three things
7 that she considers surface of - - to the substantial
8 change . The density is twenty percent .
9 Yeah, that twenty percent is significant , I
10 guess , but when you' re talking about 700 houses versus 600
11 houses - - yeah, you know - - well , 600 versus 700 in a
12 rural area that does not have the amenities to support
13 that kind of a -- the traffic is going to go from,
14 everybody' s talking about , 1 , 000 cars reduction? Nobody' s
- 15 mentioned how many cars that' s going to put on those roads
16 that are not prepared for that every day.
17 And just by taking - - if ten percent - - 22
18 percent is a thousand cars, that means there' s going to be
19 5 , 000 more cars per day, on those roads out there, that - -
- 20 and that' s in - - that' s in addition to the 1 , 500 that are
21 already for the 168 houses that' s been approved. So
22 that ' s roughly 6 , 500 cars per day on those county roads
- 23 out there .
24 The - - if you put this kind of development out
25 there, you' re going to need other services . There' s not
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
42
1 the services to provide for small -- small or medium sized
2 town. There' s going to be more need for more services .
3 It ' s not going to stop .
4 And I don' t think that ' s a - - I mean, it ' s not
5 like the Johnstown area, close to I-25 and all that , where
6 the services are within a few miles . The closest -- the
7 closest services of any kind are 20 mi- -- no, not 20
8 miles . Lasalle gas stations are about 7 or 8 miles .
9 That ' s a long way to the minimum services .
- 10 Traffic - - and the septic tanks . I don' t know
11 about that . I ' m not an expert about that . I have some
12 concerns about that .
13 But I will say that the same engineer that came
14 here last time, and said they were fine, and there would
- 15 be no problem, is the same person that ' s here saying that
16 today. And I don' t know whether that' s been fully - -
17 fully addressed or not . Whether that may still be some
- 18 concerns .
19 They said when they did the - - when they
20 proposed last time, there was no problems with the septic .
21 Now they say there is some concerns .
22 So I -- so anyway, I think there' s going to
- 23 drastically - - it' s a way of an over-commitment to
24 development in that area . I just think it' s a big
25 mistake . Thank you. Any questions?
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
43
1 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Thank you, Mr. Wardell . Are
2 there any questions? Commissioner Jerke .
3 COMMISSIONER JERKE : Thank you, Madam Chairman .
4 Roy, I think I would find you an expert in one area, and
5 that would be re-vegetation.
6 MR . WARDELL : I 'm going to put my hearing aids - -
7 COMMISSIONER JERKE : -- because you' ve been out
8 there forever .
9 MR. WARDELL : I was using the hearing device
- 10 back there . So I can hear you a little better .
11 COMMISSIONER JERKE : Let me start over, again,
12 then. I think you would be an expert in the area of
13 re-vegetation. How tough - -
14 MR. WARDELL : And I ' ve consulted with one or two
- 15 of the houseowners - - homeowners that are there - -
16 COMMISSIONER JERKE : How tough is it - - how
17 tough is it to get natural re-vegetation started, again,
- 18 in areas where you can' t really water?
19 MR. WARDELL : I ' ve spent my life trying to do
20 that in those places , and it ' s very, very difficult . And
21 I - - the last time I drove through there, I felt a deep
22 sense of sadness , and looking at those homes, and the
— 23 difficulties that those people are having to try to hold
24 that sand down. It' s not a very pretty scene . It ' s
25 really expensive, it ' s really hard, and it' s going to take
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
44
1 a lot of water, and it' s very difficult to establish .
2 The best thing they can do is use enough water
3 to get - - there are some grasses that - - but see, so many
4 times they made these big cuts . There' s no topsoil , they
- 5 piled the sand up, and it all looks the same . But it' s
6 not the same .
7 The size of pipe may very well be the same, but
8 the top soil , when they dug and piled it up, wasn' t set
9 aside, and there' s a lot of places where people are trying
- 10 to grow stuff, which is sugar sand, that was 20 feet
11 below, that has no nutrient value in it , and - - unless
12 they do something with that .
13 And if you look, there' s problems around
14 people' s houses blowing over there . I suspect some of you
- 15 that are here are going to - - will attest to that . And
16 it ' s really hard to do that .
17 I feel so- - - you know, I feel sad for people
- 18 that come out there and not knowing what they' re getting
19 into, in terms of trying to do their landscaping .
20 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Are there any other questions
21 of Mr . Wardell? Thank you, Mr. Wardell . Is there anyone
22 else in the audience? If so, would you please come forth
- 23 and give your name and address for the record, please .
24 MS . BAILEY: Hi , there . I ' m Jill Bailey. I
25 live at 13723 Weld County Road 39 . It ' s about a mile or
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
45
1 so south of where the subdivision is , and I want to agree
2 with everything that Roy has said.
3 We have lived out there nine years . And
4 trying - - we' ve got 40 acres out there, plus we lease
5 another 40 acres to put our stock on, and once you do
6 anything with that soil out there, you just almost cannot
7 get anything else to grow. It is just so difficult and
8 so harsh to do anything .
9 It is truly the sand hills . Sage Brush, yucca
10 and prickly pear are the best vegetation that ' s out there .
11 The other concern I have is, if there would be
- 12 a - - you know, and I haven' t been part of the - - I didn' t
13 see if there' s any other exits or entrances into Pelican
14 Lake, besides the main entrance on 39 .
15 But if there are any others, it very much
16 concerns me, because, as Roy said, not only will there
17 be - - is there increased traffic from the subdivision
18 itself , but we also have a lot more increased traffic
19 from trucks going up and down, from the dairy. A lot of
- 20 people are using it as an access to 76 and 52 .
21 It' s - - the traffic in the nine years that I ' ve
22 lived out there has increased so much so that it ' s
23 difficult for me to get out of my driveway sometimes
24 because of the amount of traffic going up and down that
- 25 road. And I ' m really, really concerned, by putting this
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
46
1 many more houses out there . And like Roy said, these
2 county roads are not made for that kind of traffic .
3 The other concern I have is, I have two small
4 children, and my daughter is in 7th grade in the RA-1
5 School District . That school district is already
6 struggling right now. Where -- are all these people going
7 to be in RA-1 also?
8 If so, we need to increase the size of the
9 schools , we need to increase the budgets , we need to get
- 10 more teachers . We' re having a really hard time in that
11 school district .
12 I ' m very much concerned that our children are
13 not getting the kind of education that they need. The
14 school district has rated average, but I just - - they' ve
- 15 increased the school size - - the class sizes , because they
16 had to reduce some teachers sizes , because of budgets , and
17 stuff .
- 18 I agree with Roy. I just don' t think that our
19 services are there to provide for this number of people .
20 Thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Okay. Are there any questions
22 of Mrs . Bailey? Thank you. Is there anyone else in the
— 23 audience that wishes to speak to this application this
24 morning? If so, would you please give your name and
25 address for the record.
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
47
1 MS . HARR : I ' ll be happy to .
2 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Okay.
3 MS . HARR : My name is Donna Harr. My address is
4 16489 Ledgered Road South in Platteville . I live in the
5 development .
6 This is the first time I 've been to any of your
7 meetings . In answer to some of the things that these
8 people have brought up, I 'm terribly concerned - - or
9 appreciate the fact that you' re concerned about our sand
10 problem.
11 However, we are not the only people in the
12 county in that area who are building homes , and have
13 disturbed the soil , and therefore, having a challenge
14 getting things to grow back, but they do grow. All you
15 have to do is know how. And if anybody in the development
16 would like to know, I ' d be happy to share that with them.
17 Another thing, too, I ' m a member of the Platte
18 Valley Chamber of Commerce . Jo (sic) , in response to your
19 concern over the schools , we just received a report last
20 Tuesday from the lady - - her name is also Jo . I can' t
21 think of her last name -- who is the superintendent , I
22 believe, of the schools there .
23 They are like any other area when they have an
24 increase, which happens in time, with their population
25 base, and therefore your schools . They have made plans
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
48
1 and they have already initiated an increase in wages for
2 their teachers, which takes effect this following year, so
3 that' s well-taken care of .
4 They have made plans and have got those going
5 now for the expansion of the school , since all the
6 schools , not only from this development but also some that
7 are in Platteville, are in the local areas . They' re not
8 out just in the county.
9 So all of that is being addressed, so there
10 isn' t a problem with the -- any more than any other town
11 would have, as far as an increase in the school system,
12 their ability to serve the school children that are coming
13 into it .
14 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Okay. Are there any questions
15 of Mrs . Harr? Thank you very much. Is there anyone else
16 in the audience that wishes to speak to this application?
17 Right . I know. We' ll give you time to close .
18 Is there anyone else who wishes to speak? If
19 so, would you please come forth and give your name and
20 address for the record? I think we have two people at
21 once . Why don' t you go first , then - - then if we could,
22 you, sir .
23 MR. COOPER : Thank you. My name is Steven D .
24 Cooper . I live at 16500 Beebe Draw Parkway. I live smack
25 dab in the middle of this development you see here .
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
49
1 Contrary to what you heard before, there' s only
2 17 houses out there that have residents in them. I ' d just
3 like the idea - - I didn' t bring any notes up; I have no
4 bullet points ; I just have a couple points that I ' d like
- 5 to - - that I don' t think that you may know about .
6 Right over here, excuse me -- right over here - -
7 I 've got it wrong . I ' ll point it out to you. CR 39 , over
8 here, two or three miles, we have about a 58 acre what we
9 call a junkyard full of cars .
- 10 CHAIRMAN GEILE : I need, if you could, come back
11 to the microphone, because this is being recorded.
12 MR . COOPER: Oh, it picks it up here?
- 13 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Because it ' s being recorded,
14 yeah - - yeah.
15 MR. COOPER: If I could line up - - If I could
16 line up this pencil -- it would be better - -
17 CHAIRMAN GEILE : I think we saw where you were
- 18 pointing .
19 MR. COOPER: Right about a half a mile east of
20 there, we have over 100 acres of what we call another area
21 with junk cars .
22 About a half a mile south of there, there' s over
- 23 a - - maybe a couple hundred acres of tires . And if those
24 ever catch on fire, we' ll all be on national TV. Now,
25 those have all been zoned in there .
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
50
1 Right up by the lake, as you can see, right next
2 to the lake, is a couple hundred acres of dairy farm.
3 Now, that dairy farm has also - - has some recyclables on
4 there . All that could contaminate, and probably is, in
- 5 the groundwater moving towards that lake, much more than
6 this property will be .
7 Now, I am a registered, professional engineer,
8 registered in California, in safety and health. I have
9 been appointed by the Secretary of Labor to be the
- 10 chairman of the sanitation committee in Washington. I ' m
11 the chairman of probably 14 other committees that have to
12 do with safety and health, all in the construction
- 13 industry.
14 I ' d like to point out that to the north of this
- 15 property, all this agricultural land is - - ' tis the season
16 to put the cow manure on, starting now through March.
17 It ' s been going on since 1920 , I assume .
- 18 Then we have the spring and winter snows . And
19 we also have the circles that water this in, and filter
20 into these areas .
_ 21 Yes , there is a concern about the septic tanks .
22 I won' t go into that . I think the commissioners should,
- 23 as you pointed out before, insist the metropolitan
24 district have some time tables and systems to insure that
25 the septic tanks are - - are taken care of .
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
51
1 But those septic tanks aren' t the only problem
2 out there . All of you know that we have gas wells out
3 there . And I looked this morning, on the way in . I would
4 assume there' s a gas well every 200 acres , and that' s
5 probably closer than that together.
6 Those are being fractured, as you know, with 10
7 to 15 to 20 thousand gallons of toxics . If you don' t
8 think that' s in those red tanks that are being forced
9 that toxics down -- if you don' t think that ' s toxic , just
10 go out and take a glass of that substance and try and
11 drink it .
12 That does not all come back up. That is
13 happening all the time .
14 So when we talk about sanitation problems here,
15 they' re all around us , and I think that we' re probably
16 having more coming in from that dairy farm than we' re
17 having coming in from anywhere . Thank you.
18 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Any questions for Mr . Cooper?
19 Commissioner Jerke .
20 COMMISSIONER JERKE : I did want to ask just one
21 question. You said there are 17 homeowners living out
22 there right now?
23 MR. COOPER : That is correct .
24 COMMISSIONER JERKE : How many homes are actually
25 done that are not occupied at this point?
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
52
1 MR. COOPER: The developers right behind me can
2 tell me, but I would say 23 , 24 .
3 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Well , we need to - - if there' s
4 a - - they can deal with that answer when they come back.
5 MR. COOPER: All right . Well , thank you very
6 much.
7 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Thank you, Mr . Cooper . I
8 believe this gentleman over here wanted to speak to the
9 application. If you' d please give your name and address
- 10 for the record.
11 MR . JEPSEN: My name is Carl A. Jepsen II . We
12 reside at 20121 Road 42 , Lasalle . We have some property
13 on Section 2 , I believe, not too far to the east of this ,
14 so we' re concerned about some of the same things that
- 15 everybody else has talked about . The septic tanks are a
16 big concern.
17 Whether they have 800 homes, or 700 , or - - I
18 think the original thing was for 187 , and now this is for
19 419 , so that gets them up to, what? 706 , or something?
- 20 606 , 706 , or somewhere in there .
21 It ' s still a heckuva lot of homes to be on
22 septic tanks in one area that' s pretty concentrated, even
- 23 though it ' s a little spread out than more small towns .
24 Gilchrist has a sewage treatment system, Lasalle ,
25 Platteville - - Platteville' s trying to enlarge theirs , I
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
53
1 guess, or something. But it seems kind of ridiculous to
2 not require more control over that kind of waste, than
3 just septic tanks , that can leak .
4 A well engineered system - - if it' s well
5 engineered to today' s standards or beyond shouldn' t be a
6 problem, if it be lined with clay, and stuff , and these
7 things probably aren' t . I 'm sure that the lagoons down at
8 the dairy are probably lined with clay, or something, to
9 try and protect their groundwater down there, too .
- 10 Along with the septic tanks we' ve talked about ,
11 I brought up the issue, too, of the mountain lake
12 reservoir water . When we go down to the Farmers Company
13 meeting the last few years , they' ve been concerned about
14 water quality in the Barr and the Milton Lake .
15 What really surprised me is , I knew that the
16 Barr Lake was getting sewage effluent . They said that
17 that' s 50 percent sewage effluent . Some of that comes
- 18 directly from pumps just below the metro - - Denver' s Metro
19 sewage plant .
20 But what really surprised me was when they said
21 that Milton Lake was getting 80 percent sewage effluent .
22 So that' s a huge problem, I think .
- 23 When you look at other lakes , way up above
24 Denver, like Chatfield or Cherry Creek, or Boyd Lake, I
25 think they' ve all had a problem with e-coli that they' ve
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
54
1 had to restrict use in those recreation lakes . This is a
2 lake that hasn' t been classified as anything other than
3 agricultural use .
4 I don' t know how anybody can be on water or a
5 lake and not have contact with it , or not go fishing, and
6 avoid contact with the water. Or boating and not get
7 something splashed on them, which is a problem, I think,
8 especially for young kids or people that have compromised
9 immune systems , to be more of a worry for them.
- 10 Even the little fountain in Greeley this summer
11 had lots of problems, and had to be closed down, and that
12 was chlorinated water . So I don' t know what you can do
13 about that .
14 I ' m concerned about the roads , too . I believe
- 15 in one of your exhibits from Drew Sheltinga, he says that
16 even with the reduced loads on the roads , that you' d have
17 to upgrade them a lot , improve their quality.
- 18 I copied some stuff a couple days ago, out of
19 some of the reports -- I ' m sure it ' s in your reports - -
20 where they talk about drainage problems , or no drainage
21 plans , where those flows are going .
22 If they can' t go into the Milton - - not the
- 23 Milton - - Lake - - maybe the Milton and the incoming Platte
24 Valley Reservoir of - - excuse me - - the Platte Valley
25 Ditch. So I ' m wondering what kind of retention or
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
55
1 detention ponds they' re going to have for runoff, whether
2 it' s 187 , or 700 homes, there' s still going to be a
3 heckuva lot of runoff off of roads , and houses . Problems
4 there .
- 5 They also talked about septic systems . There' s
6 likely contamination of groundwater, contamination failure
7 of leach fields or effluent surfacing in undesirable
8 locations such as basements .
9 Also if open space is to be used as a back-up
- 10 area for leach fields, it should make - - be made clear
11 that such areas are restricted from recreational use .
12 Here' s a copy of the -- if you want to look at all that .
- 13 There' s two different documents there, both
14 concerned with drainage and having environmental buffer
- 15 zones , and things . Those things concern me . I don' t know
16 what - - how this area with those sands can accommodate all
17 those needs for this 700 or 600 or whatever homes that are
— 18 going to be there .
19 And like everybody else, worried about wind
20 erosion, too . The soils, once you take them off , and take
21 the top soil off , like Roy and other people were saying,
22 you might get some grass to grow back slowly, but it ' s
— 23 going to be a heckuva lot weaker root system, and weaker
24 grass types than normal grass in the soils . That ' s about
25 all I ' ve got .
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
56
1 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Okay. Are there any questions
2 from the board? Thank you very much, sir . Is there
3 anyone else - - if you've already spoke --
4 FEMALE VOICE : Oh, I just had a question, or is
5 that not - - I ask it later.
6 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Well , if you would care to come
7 forth and present your question, we will allow that . Go
8 ahead.
9 MR. COBERN: My name is Kent Cobern. I ' m the
- 10 marketing manager for the project . I live at 12628 North
11 Woodland Trail , Parker, Colorado 80138 .
12 I 've been involved in this project since its
13 early stages in 1985 , and I ' d just like to answer a couple
14 of questions that some of the - -
- 15 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Well , we will be calling back
16 the applicant to make any closing statements . If you' re
17 representing the applicant , you might want to wait till we
- 18 permit that .
19 MR. COBERN: Okay. I can do that . That' s fine .
20 Thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Thank you. Did you have - -
22 somebody else have a question? If you' d please come back
- 23 to the - -
24 FEMALE VOICE : I think I ' ve got it figured out .
25 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Okay. Is there anyone else, if
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
57
1 you' d please -- well , you've already presented testimony.
2 Yeah, we need -- we need to kind of move on, otherwise,
3 we' re going to be here - -
4 MRS . HARR : I did have a question - - that we can
5 ask the developer . I would like to know what is planned
6 for the open spaces there . For 60 acres of open space, I
7 want to know, is that going to be landscaped? Is it going
8 to be - - you know, what' s going to happen with that? Is
9 it going to be left to blow with sagebrush and stuff like
- 10 the rest of it? That was my question.
11 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Okay. Thank you . Is there
12 anyone else that wishes to speak to the applica- - - if
13 you' d please give your name and address for the record.
14 MR. JOHN JEPSEN: My name is John Jepsen. I
- 15 live at 20121 Weld County Road 42 , Lasalle, Colorado . I ' m
16 concerned about the blowing dust .
17 There' s numerous reports that ' s been presented
18 to the planning commission, and the commissioners over the
19 years , about how fragile the grass is , and how hard it is
20 to establish, and here they' re planning to put, according
21 to their ad, twenty miles of trails for hiking, horses .
22 And over the years, what are they going to do to
- 23 control the erosion on these trails? It ' s very fragile .
24 I know along the property line of the farm, the
25 ranch that my family owns , there used to be an old county
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
58
1 road there that was in existence before the mountain lake
2 was there, and you could actually see in parts how badly
3 that eroded.
4 And back then when that was put in, I think
5 there was only horses going on it . There' s an old pioneer
6 cemetery there, and further north there' s a church
7 basement , and an old homestead there along the way by that
8 road, or the old road, and it' s very badly eroded in
9 places , and they' re planning horse trails . I ' m concerned
- 10 about , you know, the septic systems , the water leaching up
11 in odd places , say, under the county road there .
12 If the county' s going to maintain the road, it
13 maybe be the first time the county has to drain effluent
14 from out of the county road, if it comes up under the
15 road. It ' s very hard to say where this would come up .
16 I 'm concerned about the added traffic . We have,
17 you know, substantial agricultural traffic , trucks , slow
- 18 farm equipment transporting, moving from farm to farm on
19 the roads . If you add this additional traffic on there,
20 what expense will the county have?
21 The expense for the school . I read once where
22 the Town of Platteville had an intergovernmental agreement
- 23 with RA-1 , to pay the school district $1 , 000 a lot for any
24 additional house that was built in Platteville . And here
25 we have a few acres donated of who knows what value to
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
59
1 the district .
2 The original developer did say he' d pave County
3 Road 32 to Platteville, and maintain it , remove the snow.
4 And somehow he changed it . The promises now when there' s
5 100 houses out there, he' ll donate a few dollars to the
6 county. So thank you. Any questions?
7 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Are there any questions of the
8 board? No? Thank you very much, sir . Is there anyone
9 else that wishes to speak to this application this
- 10 morning? If not , let me go ahead and close the public
11 testimony, and I ' ll call the applicant or representative
12 of the applicant back to do your closing comments .
13 MR. KLINGER : Mr . Chairman, Kent will go first ,
14 then I ' ll go second, if that ' s permissible .
- 15 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Okay. Whoever is going to go,
16 if you' d please come forth and give your name and address
17 for the record, again. Give your name and address for the
18 record, and any comments you' d wish to make .
19 MR. COBERN: I ' d just like to clarify a couple
20 points that were made . The number - -
21 CHAIRMAN GEILE : If you' d please give your name
22 and address?
- 23 MR. COBERN: Oh, yes . I ' m Kent Cobern. I live
24 at 12628 North Woodland Trail in Parker, Colorado 80138 .
25 In the first filing, there' s 188 lots . Two of
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
60
1 those lots are taken by the metropolitan district
2 building, the community center building, which you have a
3 photograph of , and the entry house . So we have 186 lots
4 that are available for sale at this point in time .
5 Of those lots , 57 lots have been sold and
6 closed. We have 22 homes occupied by residents at this
7 point in time, and 16 homes under construction. That ' s - -
8 those are the exact numbers as of this date .
9 As far as re-vegetation goes, we have an
10 aggressive re-vegetation program. After we - - the roads
11 are built and constructed, and all the infrastructure is
- 12 done for a specific phase that will be opening, we start- -
13 we initiate our re-vegetation program immediately.
14 And contrary to Roy' s testimony, Roy had several
- 15 gas wells excavated on his property this summer.
16 CHAIRMAN GEILE : We really need to concentrate
17 on just this application, sir.
18 MR . COBERN: Okay. Okay. But the re-vegetation
19 happens rapidly. And I have some exhibits that I ' d like
20 to show you. These are photographs of our re-vegetation
21 program. [Pause . ]
22 As you can see by the photographs, it ' s an
23 aggressive program. We get in and re-vegetate immediately
24 after the road work is completed, and it does happen
25 quickly. You - - if you go out there, we don' t have any
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
61
1 exposed ground at this point in time . Thank you . Do you
- 2 have any questions?
3 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Okay. Thank you very much. Are
4 there any questions of Mr . Cobern? Thank you very much.
5 MR. KLINGER : Mr. Chairman, members of the
6 County Commissioners , I' ll be very brief . I don' t think
7 you want me to go into rebut each and every point that the
S people who are opposed to the project have raised. I
9 don' t think you want me to do that , do you, sir?
- 10 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Only what you want to do, Mr.
11 Klinger.
12 MR . KLINGER: Okay. Just quickly, the traffic
13 study that ' s been submitted indicates that with this
14 reduction in trips , that the road servicing this project
- 15 are more than adequate to support it .
16 We have found that many of the people buying our
17 homes out here, and we project in the future, many of them
18 are empty-nesters , who like this open space out there .
19 And many of them work out of their homes , and many of them
— 20 will not have children which, as you know, families with a
21 lot of kids generate a lot of traffic .
22 Yes, there will be people living here with
- 23 children, of course . But many of these people are - - will
24 be and are empty nesters .
25 The other thing we' re going to be doing in this
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
62
1 plan is providing for building envelopes , so if those
2 lots , two and a half acres to seven acres , you' ll only be
3 able to cut the sod out there - - and incidentally, we have
4 not been permitting any grazing out there . There' s a
5 really good grass cover on this 4 , 000 acres right now.
6 It' s really terrific .
7 So we' re trying to limit the area open to
8 excavation for the house itself and the septic systems .
9 Those areas then are - - we have an aggressive plan of
- 10 xeriscaping, and we properly prepare the soils .
11 We fertilize the soils, and I would submit to
12 you commissioners that this is a better use of the ground
13 in many ways than a winter wheat program where you just
14 cut the entire 4 , 000 acres , open all the soil for the
- 15 wheat - - if we have a drought year, we have tremendous
16 blowing.
17 So we are working very hard, as Kent showed you
18 the pictures, to establish - - re-establish these areas
19 around these houses . And with xeriscaping, reducing the
20 demand for water consumption, and having drought tolerant
21 grasses and plants , I think we have an aggressive program
22 to. recognize the existing environment out there .
- 23 As far as drainage goes , this site has an
24 interesting project . Many of the open space areas that I
25 have designated on this new plan, there are areas where
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
63
1 there are, what I call , depressions . And the water can' t
2 get out of those .
3 But what happens with that soil is, the soil
4 engineer just discussed with you, that groundwater, and
5 that surface water percolates down out of there . It never
6 leaves those depressed areas .
7 In fact , it doesn' t even sit there, as you know
8 a lot of detention areas would, when the water would sit
9 for awhile . It just sinks down. So the drainage problems
- 10 on this site are adequately handled by the natural
11 environment very well .
12 This hearing today is about a substantial change
13 to the plan. And these items can be talked about when we
14 come back with the plan.
15 In the 32 years I ' ve been practicing this
16 profession and land planning, we always have people
17 against any project , anywhere in the country I go .
- 18 There' s always the "I got mine, I don' t want you to have
19 yours , " "I don' t want any growth in my area . " You' ve all
20 seen this . I ' ve seen it .
21 We as the applicant have to prove to you that
22 we' re trying to do an adequate job. There are adequate
- 23 roads to serve the area . We' ve donated the land to the
24 school district ; worked very closely with them.
25 But this hearing is about, has there been a
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
64
1 substantial change in this application. And I think we've
2 shown you today that this is a substantial change .
3 And then if you permit this substantial change,
4 or you agree with that, that it is a substantial change,
5 then we' ll come forward with the plat and discuss these
6 issues in more detail . Thank you very much.
7 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Okay. Are there any questions
8 of Mr . Klinger? If not , thank you very much.
9 MR. KLINGER: Thank you, sir.
- 10 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Does that conclude your
11 closing, your remarks?
12 MR . KLINGER: (Speaking away from microphone . )
13 (Inaudible)
14 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Pam, did you have anything you
15 wanted to add?
16 MS . SMITH: I don' t at this time .
17 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Monica, did you have anything
- 18 you wanted to add?
19 MS . MIKA: No .
20 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Counsel?
21 MR. MORRISON: Well , I ' ve passed out copies of
22 the excerpt from the ordinance . I ' d note for the board
- 23 that you have acted on an amendment to this section,
24 which I don' t think substantially changes the
25 consideration today.
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
65
1 It' s not formally in effect , and wouldn' t apply
2 here, but you have recently discussed this process in the
3 ordinance amendment procedures .
4 But the main thing you' re looking at is whether
5 there' s been a substantial change in the facts and
6 circumstances, which is a change in the land-use
7 application, and the surrounding land uses , or in
8 applicable provisions of the law.
9 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Are there any questions by the
10 board? Commissioner Vaad?
11 COMMISSIONER VAAD : Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I
12 might have a question of Frank Hempen. And I understand
— 13 the - - what the issue is on the substantial change, but I
14 think this is connected to not only testimony but --
15 Frank, can you tell me what the classification of Weld
16 County Road 39 , immediately adjacent to the property is?
17 MR. HEMPEN: Good morning, commissioners . Frank
- 18 Hempen with the Department of Public Works .
19 I believe 39 - - currently 39 and 32 are both
20 classified as collectors .
- 21 COMMISSIONER VAAD : And what is the ADT capacity
22 of a collector?
23 MR. HEMPEN: If you look at the ITE Manuals , I
24 believe that it' s possible that a collector with
25 reasonable shoulder amenities can handle - - these are
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
66
1 huge tables - - somewhere in the neighborhood of 7 , 000
2 vehicles per day.
3 COMMISSIONER VAAD : And do you know what the
4 latest count is in that area?
5 MR. HEMPEN: The latest count on 32 - -
—
6 COMMISSIONER VAAD : No, what -- 39 .
7 MR. HEMPEN: Oh, on 39? No, I ' m sorry. I don' t
8 have that at my fingertips today.
9 COMMISSIONER VAAD : Well , since 32 is close, do
_ 10 you know what it is there?
11 MR . HEMPEN: 32 is between 39 and U. S . 85 , close
12 to Platteville, is close to 2 , 000 vehicles a day, in the
13 1 , 980 ' s or 1 , 990 ' s .
14 COMMISSIONER VAAD : Thank you.
— 15 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Are there any other - -
16 Commissioner Jerke?
17 COMMISSIONER JERKE : Well , I guess what point
18 did it become an arterial , because I believe that if you
19 get further north - - north of 44 , for example in that
— 20 area, you' d have to be classified as an arterial .
21 MR. HEMPEN: There' s -- we probably don' t need
22 to go into a detailed explanation of how roads get
- 23 classified, Commissioner Jerke, but traffic count is just
24 one of the criterion for determining what a roadway
25 classification is .
L-MAC R S T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
67
1 You might have a - - determining if it ' s an
2 arterial or a collector has a lot to do with how it
3 connects up different segments of the roadway system.
4 So volume - - really the volume - - volumes are
5 just part of -- of a classification, so it' s not
6 necessarily a determiner -- traffic counts just aren' t
7 necessarily the only determiner.
8 COMMISSIONER JERKE : Thank you.
9 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Are there any other questions
- 10 of staff? If not , I ' ll bring it back to the board for
11 discussion. Commissioner Jerke .
12 COMMISSIONER JERKE : Well , Mr . Chairman, I would
- 13 suggest that there has indeed been substantial change in
14 the -- there is a far number - - or fewer lots than there
15 were proposed in the past , and that there is clearly fewer
16 average daily trips , potentially up to a thousand.
17 There is an increase also, with respect to lot
- 18 size, the lot size getting up to that magic two and a half
19 acre area that we kind of look towards being able to do,
20 theoretically, a better job with respect to septic
21 systems .
22 So those are my personal findings, anyway, what
- 23 I ' m seeing from the proposal .
24 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Commissioner Masden?
25 COMMISSIONER MASDEN: Yes, thank you, Mr .
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
— 68
1 Chairman. Yes, I will be supporting the substantial
2 change application today seeing that they have made
3 substantial movement in reducing the lot size and trips
4 per day, as far as the traffic, and working up a better
5 plan for the sanitation systems . So I believe that it is
6 what they are asking for .
7 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Any other comments?
8 COMMISSIONER VAAD : Mr. Chairman, you or you
9 didn' t make a - -
10 COMMISSIONER MASDEN: No, I didn' t make a move .
11 COMMISSIONER VAAD : I would move for a finding
12 of substantial change for the reasons - -
- 13 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Just - - excuse me .
14 MR . MORRISON: Mr . Chairman, there' s one other
15 matter that would - - if the motion is for granting of the
16 substantial change, I would suggest an additional
17 condition.
- 18 The original application for the second filing
19 resulted in litigation, which has been on hold, pending
20 this process . Your substantial change process says you
21 can' t finally approve a petition for substantial change,
22 and allow them to go to the next step, if there' s
23 litigation.
24 And what I think is appropriate is that if
25 your - - if you do grant the substantial change, that
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
69
1 you condition that - - the effectiveness of that upon the
2 dismissal of Case No . 00-CV-1126 , in the Weld District
3 Court .
4 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Do that , again.
5 MR. MORRISON: It' s dismiss - - that the decision
6 would be conditioned on the dismissal of Case No. 00-CV-
7 1126 , with prejudice, in the Weld District Court .
8 Dismissal with Prejudice .
9 COMMISSIONER VAAD : Very well , Mr . Chairman. I
10 will add that to my motion.
11 And additionally - - in addition to the comments
12 by Commissioner Jerke and Commissioner Masden, I also find
13 that there' s a substantial change in the densities for the
14 development . So for those reasons , I would move for a
15 substantial change, with that condition that the
16 litigation cease .
17 COMMISSIONER LONG: Second.
18 CHAIRMAN GEILE : The motion has been made by
19 Commissioner Vaad, second by Long, to - - in re- - - there' s
20 a determination that there has been a substantial change,
21 and - - that would be approved, with the addition of Number
22 E, if I could, which would be dismissal of Case No. 00-CV-
23 - - or CC?
24 COMMISSIONER MASDEN: CV, as in Victor .
25 CHAIRMAN GEILE : 00-CV-1126 . Is there any
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
70
1 further discussion. Esther, would you take roll call ,
2 please?
3 MS . GESICK: Bob Masden - aye ; Dave Long - aye ;
4 Bill Jerke - aye; Glenn Vaad - aye; Mike Geile - aye .
5 CHAIRMAN GEILE : Let the record show that the
6 motion passed unanimously. And again, for those of you
7 who are here to testify, this case will come back before
8 the Board of County Commissioner, like any other case, and
9 will be heard.
10 And certainly that will give you the right and
11 the opportunity to come and present your testimony at that
12 time . So with that , is there any other further business?
13 If not , I ' ll go ahead and adjourn the Board of County
14 Commissioners .
is [End of discussion/action on Substantial Change
16 Hearing #20 , Beebe Draw Farms, 2nd filing . ]
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
71
1 CERTIFICATE
2
3 STATE OF COLORADO )
4 ) ss
_ 5 COUNTY OF ARAPAHOE)
6
7 I , Laura M. Machen, an independent
8 transcriber and notary public within and for the State of
9 Colorado, certify the foregoing transcript of the tape/CD
10 recorded proceedings, In Re: discussion/action on
11 Substantial Change Hearing #20, Beebe Draw Farms
- 12 Development, 2nd filing, REI, Inc . , c/o Jim Fell, before
13 the Weld County Board of County Commissioners, December
14 19, 2001, and as further set forth on page one . The
- 15 transcription, dependent upon recording clarity, is
16 true/accurate with special exceptions (s) of any or all
17 precise identification of speakers , and/or correct
18 spelling or any given/spoken proper name or acronym.
19 Dated this 23rd day of February 2004 .
- 20
21
22
23 ---
24 My commission expires May 23 , 2004 �T
25 ORIGINAL ( Q1
26 CERTIFIED COPY ( )
L-MAC R & T 303.798.0380 Weld County BOCC Beebe Draw 2nd filing 12-19-01
Hello