HomeMy WebLinkAbout20022804.tiff TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS HEARING
Cattail Creek PUD, COZ #613
COPY
Taken at the Weld County Centennial Center,
915 Tenth Street , First Floor, Greeley, Colorado , at
10 : 00 a . m . , Wednesday, October 2 , 2002 , before Jane L .
Escobar , Registered Professional Reporter and Notary
Public of the State of Colorado .
Wilson George Court Reporters, Inc. 2002-2804
One Old Town Square, Suite 200 B, Ft. Collins, CO 80524 (970) 224-3000 �,
303 E. 17th Avenue, Suite 700, Denver, CO 80203 (303) 861-5000 (�, #J` ztt4
— Greeley, CO (970) 353-0300 (800) 845-3001
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2
1 INDEX
2 TESTIMONY OF : PAGE
3 Sherri Lockman, Planning Services 4
4 Peter Shay, Public Works 9
5 Pam Smith, Public Health 17
6 Anne Best Johnson 23 , 108
7 George DuBard 35
8 Mike Miller 37
9 Debra Page 42
10 Mike Page 49
11 Barb Perusek 55
12 Bill Perusek 58
13 Vickie Mill 63
14 Reuben Hergert 67
15 Pat McNear 71
16 Harlan Simensen 83
17 Joe Houges 84
18
19 Afternoon session 79
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 MR . VAAD : Good morning . It ' s October 2nd .
3 The Board of County Commissioners is convened for the
4 land use hearing . I ' ll ask the clerk to please call
5 the roll .
6 CLERK : Rob Masden?
7 MR . MASDEN : Here .
8 CLERK : Bill Jerke?
9 MR . JERKE : Here .
10 CLERK : Mike Geile?
11 MR . GEILE : Here .
12 CLERK : Dave Long?
13 MR . LONG : Here .
14 CLERK : Glenn Vaad?
15 MR . VAAD : Here .
16 Let the record show that all five
17 commissioners are present . The first item of business
18 is document No . 2002 -71 . Counsel , will you please
19 make the record?
20 MR . MORRISON : Mr . Chairman, Document No .
21 2002 -71 is the application of Cattail Creek Group ,
22 LLC, care of George DuBard for a change of Zone No .
23 613 from the A, Agricultural , Zone District to the
24 Planned Unit Development Zone District for eight lots
25 with Estate Zone uses and one lot with Agricultural
4
1 Zone uses along with 30 . 13 acres of open space .
2 The legal description is Lot C of recorded
3 exemption No . 2637 , part of the southwest quarter of
4 Section 9 , Township 6 North, Range 66 West of the 6th
5 P . M . , Weld County, Colorado .
6 Notice was published September 18th, 2002 in
7 the Tri-Town Farmer and Miner and staff will provide
8 evidence of posting .
9 That ' s marked as Exhibit AA.
10 MR . VAAD : Thank you , counsel . Good
11 morning .
12 MS . LOCKMAN : Good morning . Can you hear me
13 now?
14 Sherri Lockman, Department of Planning
15 Services . Cattail Creek Group , in care of George
16 DuBard, have applied for a change of zone from
17 Agricultural to PUD for eight lots with Estate Zone
18 uses and one lot with Agricultural Zone uses , along
19 with 30 . 13 acres of open space .
20 The sign announcing the Board of County
21 Commissioners hearing was posted September 18th, 2002
22 by Planning staff .
23 The Cattail Creek PUD is located north of
24 and adjacent to Weld County Road 70 , approximately 800
25 feet east of Weld County Road 29 . The Town of
5
1 Severance is two miles west of the site . The City of
2 Greeley is one-and-one-quarter south of the site , and
3 the town of Eaton is three miles northeast of the
4 site . Surrounding properties are agricultural in
5 nature with homes in close proximity .
6 The site is designated farm, prime farmland
7 by the USDA Soil Conservation Service . Also, a small
8 portion along the eastern property boundary, which is
9 within the proposed open space , is located within the
10 100 -year floodplain .
11 Fourteen referral agencies reviewed this
12 case . Ten responded favorably or included conditions
13 that have been addressed through development standards
14 and the conditions of approval . Although the Weld
15 County Sheriff ' s office did not respond to the change
16 of zone request , the applicant did include evidence
17 that they had addressed the Sheriff ' s concern, as
18 stated at the sketch plan phase .
19 The Division of Wildlife has submitted a
20 late referral response at the request of surrounding
21 property owners . You have each been handed a copy of
22 that referral . The City of Greeley has recommended
23 denial , based on the overall gross density exceeding
24 one dwelling per 20 acres , as required by the City' s
25 Resolution 7 , 1985 .
6
1 At the time of the Planning Commission
2 hearing there were ten letters along with 91 , a
3 petition containing 91 signatures . Many have been
4 added through the Clerk of the Board' s office , so I
5 don' t have an exact count at this point .
6 The applicants do have an agreement with
7 North Weld County Water District to service the homes
8 and lawns for the one-acre lots . The agreement
9 includes a fee of $140 , 000 for off-site improvements .
10 These improvements will ensure that adequate water
11 supply for the subdivision and the neighborhood .
12 Irrigation for the open space will be from 20 shares
13 of Wood Lake Mutual and one-half share of Larimer
14 Weld .
15 Questions were raised at the Planning
16 Commission hearing as to if these shares could or
17 would be delivered to the site . Open space such as
18 this done in drought-tolerant grasses have been
19 consistently approved by the Board of County
20 Commissioners with little or no irrigation water .
21 The Weld County Department of Public Works
22 is requiring the internal road to be paved . Further,
23 Public Works has required the applicant to
24 proportionately share the cost of improving Weld
25 County Road 70 from the westernmost access road
7
1 easterly to Weld County Road 31 .
2 The applicant has agreed to place a bus
3 pull -off at the entrance to the subdivision .
4 And lastly, concerns were raised regarding
5 the location of the septic systems in respect to Coal
6 Bank Creek . The Weld County Department of Public
7 Health and Environment has reviewed the septic plan
8 and has determined that the septic system exceeds
9 setback requirements to surface water .
10 I also want to clarify how much livestock
11 would be allowed on the lot . Lots 1 through 8 , per
12 the Weld County code , would only be required one
13 animal unit each . This would be one horse or one cow,
14 two sheep, 25 chickens . It ' s not an amazing amount .
15 The Weld County Planning Commission has
16 recommended approval of this change of zone .
17 The applicants have requested that the final
18 plan be administratively reviewed . The Board may
19 choose to, if they wish, to hear the final plan in a
20 public hearing because of the high level of interest
21 from the surrounding property owners . We just ask
22 that whichever format you wish the final plan to take ,
23 that you would include it in your final motion .
24 The applicants are being represented by Miss
25 Anne Johnson and Mr . Todd Hodges .
8
1 And I would be happy to take any questions
2 at this time .
3 MR. VAAD : Thank you , Sherri . Commissioner
4 Geile?
5 MR . GEILE : Sherri , I ' d like to go back to
6 your animal units per lot . As I ' ve read the
_ 7 application, these are one-acre lots , isn' t that
8 correct?
9 MS . LOCKMAN : Correct .
10 MR. GEILE : And I thought there were four
11 animal units , large animal units , like a cow - -
12 MS . LOCKMAN : They' re going for estate
•13 zoning though, PUD zoning with estate use . The only
14 lot that would be allowed the four-animal usage is the
15 large agricultural lot .
16 MR . GEILE : I understand . So they would
17 have an entitlement of four units , or four - -
18 MS . LOCKMAN : Right . The large agricultural
19 lot would . The estate district is limited by the size
20 of the lot to one animal unit on each lot .
21 MR . GEILE : Because of estate zoning .
22 MS . LOCKMAN : The estate zoning and the size
23 of the lot .
24 MR . GEILE : And what is required is
25 specifically stated as the estate zone , one animal
9
1 unit per acre . Okay . Thank you .
2 MR . VAAD : Other questions of Sherri?
3 Thank you, Sherri .
4 Comments from Public Works?
5 MS . SHAY : Good morning . I ' m Peter Shay,
6 Department of Public Works .
7 The only comments I have this morning are
8 that we do have an agreement with the applicant
9 regarding the off- site roadway improvements agreement
10 for Weld County Road 70 , and it ' s based on a
11 proportional sharing agreement , so we have agreed to
12 that and have that in our file .
13 • The other item I ' d like to address is we
14 have asked that since this is a PUD, to pave the
15 interior roadway and - -
16 MR. VAAD : Peter, would you be sure and
17 move that microphone close to you?
18 MR . SHAY : Okay . We have asked that we
19 have the interior roadway paved, and we have looked at
20 some developments in the immediate area and they do
21 have paving in them also . That we ' ve found four of
22 them, and we feel it ' s appropriate for this
23 development .
24 MR . VAAD : Questions of Public Works?
25 Commissioner Geile?
10
1 MR . GEILE : Yeah . I just want to make sure .
2 Peter, as I look on page 6 , No . I , we talk about
3 homeowners association . In one of those is that the
4 association is responsible for liability taxes ,
5 maintenance of open space for each - - so if they were
6 to pave or gravel without , whatever happens here , they
7 would be responsible for the maintenance . The reason
8 why I want some clarification on that is reading
9 through the application, there was an insinuation that
10 they would in essence turn the streets over to the
11 County and we would in essence inherit the maintenance
12 of all of the roadways within the area . I want to
13 make sure that ' s clarified now here .
14 MR . SHAY : Okay ., It ' s my understanding,
15 Commissioner Geile , that should the paving be done ,
16 that Public Works has a standard one-year warranty on
17 the work . And should the work be done to the
18 performance level and standard of Public Works , that
19 we would then, after that , take over the maintenance
20 of that .
21 MR. GEILE : Well , that ' s not what the
22 homeowners association says . It says that they would
23 be responsible for the streets . If you read that
24 whole sentence , the association - - this is I on our
25 page 6 , where it talks about homeowners association .
11
1 It goes on to the second sentence . It says ,
2 "The association will be responsible for liability,
3 debt , taxes " , which is pretty standard . "Maintenance
4 of the open space , streets , private utilities , and
5 other facilities . Open space restrictions are
6 permanent . "
7 The question I have would be that , that
8 answers a question in my mind, that in essence they' re
9 going to have responsibility for the maintenance of
10 whatever streets and how they' re designed or built in
11 the subdivision .
12 MR . SHAY : It ' s my understanding that they
13 would be required to maintain that road• during the
14 first year, which is the warranty period, and that
15 after that then they would have to go through some
16 type of a , an agreement , or basically they would need
17 to come to Public Works and have us review that and
18 take that over, should it meet our standards .
19 MR . VAAD : Counsel , would you comment on
20 that?
21 MR . MORRISON : Yeah . I think that language
22 is appropriate , if the Board concludes paving is not
23 necessary . But as Mr . Shay said, you have ordinarily,
24 and I can' t think of any exceptions for residential
25 development , taken over maintenance of the paved
12
1 roadways in newly-formed subdivisions . So that
2 language is there . I think - - I ' m not certain . I
3 think the applicant may have evidence they want to
4 present on the issue , whether it needs to be paved or
5 not . But if it ' s - - I think that was there because of
6 the possibility that the roads would be privately
7 maintained and graveled .
8 MR . VAAD : So then, Counsel , by default
9 then this comment on page 6 , letter I , where it talks
10 about the streets , responsibility for maintenance of
11 the streets , would be for that first year if it ' s
12 paved .
13 MR . MORRISON : Yeah .
14 MR . VAAD : Then after that there would be an
15 agreement with the County per our standard procedure .
16 The County takes over the maintenance .
17 MR . MORRISON : Yes . But we probably will
18 need to clarify that once you have addressed the
19 paving issue .
20 MR . VAAD : Commissioner Jerke .
21 MR . JERKE : What is the egress road, off of
22 which County road?
23 MR . SHAY : It ' s off of County Road 70 .
24 It ' s a gravel road .
25 MR . JERKE : And 70 is gravel?
13
1 MR . SHAY : Correct . And we have paving
2 over here off of Weld County Road 31 .
3 MR . JERKE : I guess I ' m trying to recall
4 whether or not we have a policy in Public Works and
5 with the Board as to coming off a gravel road and
6 requiring a developer to pave the interior road . Do
7 we have a policy on that , because it seems difficult
8 at best .
9 MR . VAAD : I can address that . I don' t
10 know as to a policy or not , but I live near one . I
11 live on a gravel road, but the PUD next to me is paved
12 and that was part of a condition of approval .
13 MR . MORRISON : I think that ' s one , that ' s
14 a factor that Public Works has a list of factors ,
15 including complaints , dust complaints , in the area, in
16 the other similar developments in the area . And
17 whether it ' s coming off of a gravel or paved road,
18 there are a number of factors , and that is one of them
19 that goes into them formulating the recommendation .
20 But there ' s not a black and white rule on that .
21 MR . SHAY : If I might add, is the fact that
22 we look at , you know, the proportional amount , that
23 new traffic that ' s going to come on, and we ' re
24 requiring them to do the stabilization on Weld County
25 Road 70 . And it would be most likely inappropriate to
14
1 have them pave that due to just the high costs of
2 paving . So we ' ve asked them, sat down to do a road
3 base stabilization program for dust control along the
4 entire mile .
5 MR . VAAD : Other questions for the - -
6 Commissioner Geile?
7 MR . GEILE : Peter, I want to make absolutely
8 sure I understand . Is the - - Weld County Road 70 is
9 paved?
10 MR . SHAY : Is gravel .
11 MR . GEILE : Is gravel . Okay. What were
12 they going to do on Weld County Road 70? What is
13 the - - I ' m a little bit confused . There ' s statements
14 that they' re going to pave some , we ' re going to pave
15 some . I just want to make sure I have an
16 understanding what this application involves .
17 MR . SHAY : Okay . The paving that Public
18 Works has asked the applicant to do is only on the
19 interior egress roadway of the development . And the
20 road base stabilization is only on Weld County Road
21 70 . It ' s for the entire mile of that section between
22 Weld County Road 29 and Weld County Road 31 . And that
23 would basically eliminate or reduce the dust on that
24 traveled surface .
25 MR . VAAD : Do you have other questions ,
15
1 Commissioner Geile? Commissioner Jerke?
2 MR . JERKE : I guess that does beg a
3 question a little bit further for me . The
4 stabilization you' re talking about , are we talking
5 about that deep stabilization, the good stuff?
6 MR. SHAY : Yes .
7 MR . JERKE : Well , as I recall , the good
8 stuff so to speak is a precursor to paving really in
9 that if you do it right , and that ' s the way we want it
10 done , it ' s got to be done 24 feet wide . It ' s got to
11 be done so that the barrow pits look right and so that
12 it ' s built up properly . And the only step that ' s left
13 after that is paving then . •
— 14 If we ' re requiring the applicant to do all
15 that , it ' s still going to be a major cost versus if
16 you ' re just after dust suppression, that ' s still about
17 a $5 , 000 whack to have somebody come out and spray
18 that with magnesium chloride . But it could be a
19 significant cost to rebuild that road, which is what
20 this stabilization usually means to me .
21 MR . SHAY : Correct . I just want to remind
22 you of the fact that it ' s a proportionate amount , and
23 it ' s based off of the agreed 27 percent that they are
24 adding to that .
25 We have calculated the cost for that , the
16
1 entire road mile length, to be approximately $50 , 000 .
2 27 percent brings up approximately $13 , 500 as their
3 share for the road stabilization, and we feel that
4 that ' s appropriate and we have agreed to that with the
5 Applicant ' s engineer .
6 MR. VAAD : Thank you . Commissioner Long?
7 MR . JERKE : Just one final question, if I
8 could . What ' s the current road count?
9 MR . SHAY : Just one second .
10 MR . JERKE : For 70 in that area .
11 MR . SHAY : The current road count that the
12 County has , we do not have a current count along the
13 section of Weld County Road 70 adjacent to the •
14 development . We have just to the west on County Road
15 70 between 27 and 29 a road count of 48 . And to the
16 east we have a road county of 90 between Weld County
17 Road 31 and Weld County Road 33 .
18 MR . VAAD : Thank you . Commissioner Long?
19 MR . LONG : Thank you, Mr . Chairman .
20 Peter, is that cost a one-time cost or is
21 that a per-year cost on that stabilization, because I
22 know, you know, that has to be reworked often .
23 MR . SHAY : Well , it ' s my understanding it ' s
24 a one-time cost in that it ' s the deep road
25 stabilization that we ' re going to be doing to it and
17
1 that if it ' s done properly, it should last us for a
2 good duration of time .
3 MR . LONG : Thank you .
4 MR . VAAD : Any questions? Thank you .
5 Public Health comments?
6 MS . SMITH : Good morning . Pam Smith Weld
7 County Health Department .
8 I ' ve reviewed this application . This is a
9 subdivision with eight one-acre lots and one ag lot
10 that ' s 121 acres that will have a five-acre building
11 envelope on it . The overall density is one septic
12 system per 17 . 9 acres , almost 18 acres , which meets
13 our current department policy . The water supply is
14 going to be North Weld Water for all of the lots .
15 When I reviewed the application and the
16 preliminary perc test information that was submitted
17 in the sketch plan, they did four, they did three perc
18 tests on the property and four soil borings . They did
19 a perc test and a soil boring in the approximate
20 location of lot 8 . The ground water there was found
21 at nine feet , and this perc test information was done
22 July 26th of 2001 , so in the middle of the summer in a
23 wetter year than what we ' ve had this year , during
24 irrigation season when you would expect to find the
25 water table at a higher point , which is when we would
18
1 optimally like to see these done anyway . So on lot 8
2 we have groundwater at nine feet .
3 On approximately, the approximate location
4 of lot 4 there was groundwater was found at 8 . 7 feet ,
5 and on lot 1 a boring was done and ground water was
6 found at eight -and-a-half feet . There was also a
7 boring that was done very near the seepage ditch in
8 the open space to the east , and groundwater there was
9 found at 3 . 2 feet , which would - - I don' t know if it
10 was in the boundary of the 100 -year floodplain or if
11 it was just outside that boundary, but down there
_ 12 where the ditch is and where the seep is where the
13 high water table was found . There ' s not going to be
14 any building done in that area . That ' s all going open
15 space .
16 Perc tests ranged between 12 minutes an inch
17 and 45 minutes an inch, which also these are on lots
18 8 , 4 , and 1 for those approximate locations . Those
19 perc rates all fall within the State guidelines and
20 County regulation , County code for septic systems . So
21 I anticipate that on all the buildable lots that we ' ll
22 have acceptable perc rates and we ' ll have conventional
23 septic systems .
24 There is a 100 -year floodplain boundary on
25 the east portion of the property . The closest lot
19
1 would be lot 8 , and the septic system envelope is well
2 over 100 feet from the 100 -year floodplain boundary .
3 The property slopes about one percent to the east from
4 where the eight lots are proposed to the seepage
5 ditch, so it ' s relatively flat property out there .
6 And like I said, I don' t anticipate any, any problems
7 with the septic systems . The septic envelopes that
8 are designated on the eight lots are approximately
9 2200 square foot in size , so there ' s two 2200
10 square- foot envelopes on each lot .
11 Even with a very high perc rate , in the
_ 12 upper range of a conventional system we ' re probably
13 looking at 16 to 1800 square foot of area so both
14 envelopes are more than, large enough for an estimated
15 like four-bedroom home , which is what we ' ve seen a lot
16 of permits written for in the last year or so . So I
17 don' t anticipate that there ' s going to be any problems
18 with the septic systems .
19 MR . VAAD : Thank you . Any questions of
20 Public Health Environment? Commissioner Geile .
21 MR . GEILE : We ' re talking about one-acre
22 lots?
23 MS . SMITH : Right .
24 MR . GEILE : Which is 54 , 000 , 55 , 000 square
25 feet . Did I hear you say - -
20
1 MS . SMITH : Yeah . 43 , 560 .
2 MR . GEILE : 42 , 000 .
3 MR . VAAD : No . 43 , 560 .
4 MR . GEILE : 43 , 560 . Thank you . Excuse me .
5 Thank you . I should know that .
6 Anyway, the envelope , what did you say that
7 was? Did you say it was something like 22 , 000?
8 MS . SMITH : 2200 square feet .
9 MR . GEILE : 2200 square feet for the septic
10 envelope .
11 MS . SMITH : There ' s two of those envelopes
12 designated on each of the one-acre lots .
13 MR . GEILE : Okay. That answers my question .
14 MR . VAAD : Commissioner Jerke?
15 MR . JERKE : This didn' t really come up with
16 you so much, but I would imagine Health is maybe where
17 this came from . A lot of dust requirements , it
18 appears to me , starting at the bottom of our page 5 ,
19 letter F gets into dust requirements . They have to
20 work with Public Health and Environment and the County
21 plan on that if there ' s a problem, a nuisance problem .
22 Then we get into Colorado - - G is the
23 Colorado Air Quality Control Commission, so that if
24 there ' s more than five acres of disturbance , then you
25 need to use technologically feasible and economically
21
1 reasonable methods .
2 Then we get into H . We ' ve got a 25 -acre
3 contiguous disturbance or a six-month duration . We ' ve
4 got to have a plan . We ' ve got to go see the State
5 Health as well .
6 I guess what I ' m getting at is it seems like
7 there ' s an awful lot there , and potentially, it ' s a
8 duplication . I ' m a little bit concerned about that .
9 MS . SMITH : These are standard comments that
10 we ' ve put on all of our referrals . All three of these
11 comments relate back to State Health Department , Air
12 Quality Control Commission requirements for dust
13 abatement and uses , conditions .
14 The first comment , comment E , where they
15 have to submit a fugitive dust control plan, that
16 we ' re asking, we would ask that that would be
17 submitted directly to us because we would be the ones
18 to review that . We would also forward that on to the
19 State , if there were to be a nuisance condition with
20 dust .
21 The other two , the other two conditions
22 about disturbing more than five acres of land and a
23 25-acre contiguous disturbance or six months duration,
24 those are both State Health Department requirements .
25 We ' re just notifying in our referral that if these
22
1 conditions were to exist , they would need to contact
2 the State Health Department for compliance . I don' t
3 believe that I ' ve ever had anybody violate those .
4 We ' re just making them aware that those regulations
5 are in effect and could be , they could be affected by
6 them.
7 MR. JERKE : On H, I don' t know how anybody
8 could build one house . It takes six months . You
9 can' t create a disturbance . If land development , if
10 land development is simply building one house , if
11 you' ve got some dust , you' re going to have to submit
12 that to the State . That ' s the way it reads to me .
13 MR . MORRISON : If that ' s the case - - I
14 mean, I want to make two points . One is that the
15 State requirements pertain predominantly to the
16 construction phase . Once construction is complete ,
17 they' re no longer operated .
18 And that ' s what the - - I mean, they' re
19 putting in what the rule is , and so it doesn' t
20 preclude doing it if it requires the creation of a
21 plan . I think you ' re correct , that might cover a lot
22 of situations , but it ' s not one within the County' s
23 control to change that rule .
24 MR . JERKE : Do we see that any of these are
25 at cross purposes or that individuals won' t know which
23
1 way to go? Which one ' s the most limiting? It looks
2 to me like H, the six months of duration, perhaps
3 is . I guess it looks to me like the developer is
4 asked to file a plan with the State , and I don ' t know
5 that I - - correct me if I ' m wrong, but I don' t recall
6 seeing that in all of our different proposals that we
7 get weekly . But my memory' s just gone in one week I
8 guess .
9 MR . VAAD : Further comments? Any questions
10 for Public Health Environment? Very well . Thank you,
11 ma' am .
12 Will the representative for the Cattail
13 Creek Group, LLC - - thank you for coming . If you' d
14 give us your name and address for our record, please .
15 MS . JOHNSON : Good morning, gentlemen . My
16 name is Anne Best Johnson, address 4025 Automation
17 Way, Suite D3 , Fort Collins , Colorado 80525 . I ' m with
18 Todd Hodges Design . I ' m also here today with the
19 applicant , George DuBard, who' s the managing partner
20 of the Cattail Creek Group .
21 The project location is north of and
22 adjacent to Weld County Road 70 and approximately 800
23 feet east of Weld County Road 29 . The site is
24 approximately three-and-a-half miles southwest of
25 Eaton .
24
1 Surrounding land uses include agriculture
2 and rural residential . Existing lot sizes in a
3 one-mile radius of this property range from less than
4 one acre in size to more than 100 acres in size .
5 In this particular section the lot sizes
6 range from just under two acres to more than 100 acres
7 in size .
8 These surrounding parcels were created
9 through the recorded exemption and subdivision
10 processes , as well as those lots created prior to
11 zoning . This information was obtained through the
12 Weld County Merrick website and public records
13 available at the Department of Planning Services .
14 Surrounding uses also include oil and gas
15 activities . Typical "no build" envelopes have been
16 placed on the plats in accordance with Weld County
17 code regulations and standards . Thomas Oil Operating
18 and Production Companies met the applicant on site on
19 September 23rd, 2002 . The outcome of this meeting is
20 that the application does not pose limitations to the
21 current or future oil and gas activities on site .
22 This was not a condition to submitting the
23 application . I do have a letter from Thomas Oil and
24 Gas Operating and Production Company to substantiate
25 this statement . If you would like to see that letter
25
1 at this time , I do have copies for all of you . If
2 not , it will be submitted with the final plat
3 application .
4 MR . VAAD : Counsel , what is your
5 recommendation? Should we enter that as evidence
6 right now?
7 MR . MORRISON : Well , she ' s mentioned it .
8 It probably ought to come in .
9 MR . VAAD : We ' ll take those now, please .
10 You may continue .
11 MS . JOHNSON : Thank you .
12 The subdivision consists of three
13 components . The first is a 121-acre agricultural lot .
14 A center pivot sprinkler system was installed within
15 the past three years to irrigate this land . The
16 center pivot will remain . This lot also includes a
17 five-acre building envelope . The agricultural lot
18 will be accessed through existing access off of Weld
19 County Road 70 .
20 Our client worked with the gentleman who
21 currently farms this lot to determine the least
22 productive portion of his entire property . He
23 determined the land located to the east was the least
24 productive portion of his land, due to the fact that
25 there are short rows and the size . Therefore , our
26
1 client decided to cluster the common open space and
_ 2 the eight lots in this area .
3 The second component of the subdivision is
4 the internal road and the eight one-acre estate lots .
5 Access will be off of Weld County Road 70 . An
6 internal paved road will service these lots . The
7 entrance will be enhanced by a common mail and school
8 delivery station . The school delivery station has
9 been designed and incorporated into the overall
10 development in accordance with specifications asked
11 for by the Eaton School District . We in fact met with
12 them. They have new buses that are state-of -the-art
• 13 that are actually larger than a standard school bus ,
14 so we met with them to make sure that they could get
15 in and turn around in the pull-off area just east of
16 the entrance .
17 The third component of the subdivision is
18 the common open space . The common open space is
19 accessible to all lots . The common open space will be
20 seeded in drought-tolerant grasses . The selection of
21 these species will be solidified with the NRCS upon
22 submittal of the final plat application .
23 The applicant did go to the NRCS . In a
24 letter from the NRCS they commend the applicant for
25 using native grass species , as these species will
27
1 reduce chemical applications , water use , and enhance
2 the natural beauty and wildlife in the area . This
3 letter is also available to you .
4 The plant species will be finalized at the
5 final plat , and that is standard County practice .
6 The common open space contains a strip of
7 land along the eastern portion of the property
8 boundary that is in a floodplain . This strip ranges
9 in width from 75 feet to 125 feet . And as you can see
10 by this rendering, development is not proposed for
11 this area .
12 The homeowners association and covenants
13 will specify the ownership, use , maintenance , and
14 distribution of the water to irrigate the common open
15 space . It is very important for you to remember that
16 the use of the water, the amount of the water, and the
17 delivery of the water will not change as a result of
18 this application . The application - - the applicant
19 maintained water with the parcel rather than dry the
20 land, as is common practice .
21 North Weld County Water has the capacity,
22 the capability, and the willingness to serve this
23 development . For a standard tap , North Weld County
24 Water District provided 228 , 000 gallons annually this
25 year, per tap . For household use , approximately
28
1 110 , 000 gallons are needed annually for a family of
2 four . Therefore , North Weld County Water can provide
3 more than double the amount required for normal
4 domestic use . This figure is based on the Weld County
5 usage amounts for septic system design standards and
6 criteria . This water is also available for outside
7 use .
8 I have a letter available . One letter was
9 submitted with sketch plan application materials . The
10 second letter was picked up yesterday from North Weld
11 Water . These letters were gathered as further
12 evidence to substantiate items that were already
13 included in our application materials .
14 Cluster design is not a new concept . It is
15 allowed by State statute and encouraged by Weld
16 County . By clustering the lots , as illustrated here ,
17 any existing migration corridors , nesting and
18 fledgling sites will be protected . By selecting
19 drought-tolerant grass species , the use of pesticides ,
20 herbicides , and mowing will be reduced to enhance the
21 wildlife in the area and additionally attract new
22 wildlife . By removing this small portion from active
23 agricultural use , disturbance will be minimized .
24 Unlike repeated recorded exemptions ,
25 subdivision exemptions , this subdivision will be
29
1 governed with architectural controls through
2 covenants . These covenants are required at the final
3 plat submittal stage and have already been submitted
4 to Mr . Lee Morrison for his review . These covenants
5 are in draft format for review for additions , and we
6 wanted to get them to Mr . Morrison as soon as possible
7 after the Planning Commission hearing to have them
8 available . Subjects covered in the covenants do
9 include construction details , the number of cars to be
10 parked on driveways .
11 The applicant was proactive by working with
12 the school district , fire protection district , Weld
13 County Public Works , Weld County Planning, Weld County
14 Sheriff , Weld County Public Health and Environment and
15 the North Weld Water District prior to even submitting
16 the application .
17 The applicant has illustrated due diligence
18 since the Planning Commission hearing two weeks ago by
19 reconfirming issues with Thomas Operating, North Weld
20 County Water, the NRCS , and his attorney .
21 Weld County Public Works has agreed to the
22 proportionate share of calculation for improving Weld
23 County Road 70 . The applicant will pave the internal
24 roads .
25 The applicant is aware of noxious weeds and
30
1 will control such species if they ever do become
2 established on his property.
3 Weld County Public Health has reviewed the
4 geotech and the percolation reports .
5 The applicant has worked with North Weld
6 County Water to ensure improvement of the water line
7 to an eight- inch line for 5 , 500 feet . This
8 improvement will be available to others in the area
9 and is being constructed at the expense of Cattail
10 Creek Group . Evidence of such was submitted with the
11 sketch plan application, the change of zone
12 application, and additional letters gathered prior to
13 this hearing .
14 The applicant has been working with the
15 Eaton Fire Protection District to meet standards .
16 This information was also included in application
17 materials .
18 The applicant mailed notices to each of the
19 mineral owners , lessees of mineral owners , and
20 operators on site on July 11th per State statute .
21 The applicant mailed and/or hand delivered
22 notices to all surrounding property owners as listed
23 in application materials to be within 500 feet of the
24 rendered drawing . This mailing was in addition to the
25 Department of Planning Services mailing required
31
1 through the County code .
2 MR . VAAD : Okay. Let me clarify something
3 before you go on . The correspondence from North Weld
4 County Water District refers to the Shepardson PUD .
5 Is that one in the same as the Cattail PUD?
6 MS . JOHNSON: Yes . It did change names
7 after the sketch plan to (inaudible) zone .
8 MR . VAAD : Thank you .
9 MR . GEILE : Mr . Chairman?
10 MR . VAAD : Yes .
11 MR . GEILE : While we ' re on that , I was
12 looking at the general warranty, as long as you
13 • brought that up . At this point the land was to be
14 exchanged in May of 2002 from the Shepardsons to the
15 Cattail Creek, LLC . Are they one in the same?
16 MS . JOHNSON: They are , and there is a
17 letter in the application materials that indicates who
18 the partners are in the Cattail Creek Group . And it
19 does include John Shepardson .
20 MR . GEILE : Okay . I had a couple of other
21 questions , but I ' ll wait .
22 MR . VAAD : Thank you .
23 MS . JOHNSON: On this map I ' d like to point
24 out the pink area that ' s shaded in . South of that
25 pink area is Weld County Road 70 . Weld County Roads
32
1 31 and 29 are to the east and the west . Our client
2 did contract with Weld County GIS to produce this map .
3 It include a three-mile radius of the project site .
4 This map outlined in yellow illustrates all
5 parcels under five acres in size created either
6 through recorded exemption, subdivision exemption
7 processes , or prior to zoning . This map also
8 illustrates the configuration of these types of
9 parcels .
10 Upon close review of this map and these
11 parcels , it is clear that this subdivision does
12 conform to surrounding property uses . Rather than
13 create multiple accesses along Weld County Road 70 ,
14 the applicant has one internal road for the eight lots
15 and one existing road for the building envelope on the
16 agricultural lot .
17 This ( indicating) is an agricultural area .
18 The applicant in fact is retaining a large
19 agricultural parcel under a center pivot irrigation
20 system . The right to farm statement , as found in the
21 Weld County Comprehensive Plan, will be placed on all
22 plats to be recorded, in the covenants , and on all
23 sales literature for the parcels .
24 This proposal meets and exceeds portions of
25 the review and approval criteria for a PUD Change of
33
1 Zone in the Weld County Code . We , therefore ,
2 respectfully request approval of this proposal . We
3 are also requesting staff approval at the final plat
4 stage .
5 Thank you for your thoughtful consideration
6 of this request . I am happy to answer any questions
7 that you may have at this time . George DuBard, the
8 managing partner for Cattail Creek Group, is also
9 present and will be happy to answer any questions you
10 may have of him .
11 MR . VAAD : Thank you, Miss Johnson .
12 Commissioner Geile?
13 MR . GEILE : Yeah .. I ' d like to get back to
14 the organization structure of Cattail Creek Group ,
15 LLC . When this warranty deed was executed in May of
16 2002 between the Shepardsons and the Cattail Creek,
17 LLC, limited partnership, and you say they are in
18 essence one in the same?
19 MS . JOHNSON : Yes .
20 MR . GEILE : And they in essence exchanged
21 the property from one group to the other with a
22 significant value associated with it on the LLC . And
23 the reason I ' m, I don' t quite understand how all of
24 this organization is - - I don' t want to get into , you
25 know, there ' s trust things and other things that can
34
1 be involved with this , but right away you look at a
2 general warranty deed and you look at the size of this
3 project with eight lots clustered and then the overall
4 clustered in one area, then they' re going to farm the
5 other, the numbers in my mind just real quick don' t
6 work out . So that ' s the reason why I ' m trying to
7 understand how this organization is going to work .
8 And really I guess the basis of the question
9 is is when you take a look at a general warranty deed,
10 which is this kind of an exchange , or the value of it ,
11 which is the $1 , 040 , 000 exchange , can you help me? I
12 want to make sure that if this moves ahead that the
13 parties have the wherewithal in their organization
14 structure to perform .
15 And I know that might be a little bit out of
16 the realm of this , but I just want to make sure that I
17 understand how this organization structure is going to
18 carry this project forward .
19 MS . JOHNSON : Commissioner Geile , I cannot
20 answer that question, but could we call Mr . George
21 DuBard, who is the managing partner to speak to that
22 because I , I cannot answer that question as to the
23 organizational structure .
24 MR . VAAD : That will be fine , if Mr . DuBard
25 would like to comment .
35
1 Please give us your name and we have your
2 address .
3 MR . DuBARD : Good morning . George DuBard,
4 304 Immigrant Trail . The organizational structure on
5 Cattail Creek is that I ' m the managing partner . I own
6 about 24 percent . The Shepardsons is John and Debbie ,
7 only own less than 50 percent , so they were able to
8 take those funds and use them elsewhere . So that ' s
9 why we formed - - there ' s two other partners also .
10 MR . VAAD : Any further questions ,
11 Mr . Geile?
12 MR . GEILE : Yeah . I - -
13 MR . DuBARD : In essence , they were able to
14 sell half their land without really being out of it .
15 MR . GEILE : Okay . But in view of the value
16 that I see here in the general warranty deed, you' re
17 going to , with eight lots , be able to make this thing
18 work for your corporate structure?
19 MR . DuBARD : Yes , we can .
20 MR . GEILE : Thank you .
21 MR . VAAD : Thank you , Mr . DuBard .
22 Are there further questions of Miss Johnson?
23 Commissioner Jerke?
24 MR . JERKE : Thank you, Mr . Chairman .
25 Looking at a letter from the State Engineer ,
36
1 and it deals with the 30 acres of open space and it
2 talks about using Wood Lake Mutual 20 shares of that
3 to irrigate that , I guess I ' m just curious . I thought
4 that it was going to be a dryland grass situation, and
5 now I read that there ' s water to irrigate it . Which
6 is it?
7 MS . JOHNSON : That ' s a very good question .
8 We have a lot of options in front of us , Commissioner
9 Jerke . The applicant did receive two different types
10 of species mixes . One would be a conservation grass
11 mix . The other is a dryland species mix. We would
12 like to minimize the use of water on the open space ,
13 while not letting it to become in a noxious weeds
14 state .
15 Water is available to get the open space
16 area up and established very quickly, and you know,
17 drought -tolerant native species will be used just
18 because of , you know, lower use of pesticides ,
19 attraction of wildlife when you use native species .
20 And the water will be available to use to get it up
21 and going .
22 MR . JERKE : Another question . You ' ve
23 mentioned the word cluster . This , I guess , is a PUD
24 and this is not formally a cluster application though,
25 or is it?
37
1 MS . JOHNSON : That is correct . It is not a
2 formal cluster PUD application . However, it does
3 follow those , some of the cluster principals .
4 MR . JERKE : And the principal that it
5 doesn' t follow, I guess , would be the 40 acres or 40
6 years or so of time that the ag land would have to be
7 left in agriculture?
8 MS . JOHNSON: Correct .
9 MR . JERKE : Okay .
10 MR . VAAD : Any questions? Thank you, Miss
11 Johnson .
12 This is a public hearing . If there are
13 those of you in the audience who would like to address
14 the Board of County Commissioners on this application,
15 we invite you to do so at this time . If you would
16 please give us your name and your address , and if you
17 are representing someone , I ' ll allow you to state
18 that .
19 MR . MILLER : Good morning . My name is Mike
20 Miller , as you probably know. I ' m here representing
21 173 people , whose names you have received on a
22 petition delivered to you that are in opposition to
23 this application .
24 These 173 people you may think are from all
25 over the county, but they are not . 80 percent of
38
1 those people live within a one-and-a-half mile radius
2 of this application . The balance of those 173 people
3 either own property, work, or have interests within
4 that one-and-a-half mile radius of this application .
5 So all of those 173 signatures are directly related to
6 this area and this community.
7 To begin, I ' d like to address the Planning
8 Commission' s recommendation for approval that you have
9 received .
10 MR . VAAD : If I might , Mr . Miller, the
11 friends that came with you are standing, if you would
12 like to explain to them .
13 MR . MILLER : These are part of the 173 . I ' m
14 sorry . You can sit down . The rest of them couldn' t
15 take off from work and be here , but this is , these
16 people are part of this group that signed the petition
17 and are here to participate in this hearing .
18 MR . VAAD : The Board acknowledges that .
19 MR . MILLER : To begin with, I ' d like to
20 address the Planning Commission' s recommendation for
21 approval that you received . As you' re probably aware ,
22 there were some problems at the Planning Commission
23 hearing that resulted in this information that I ' m
24 presenting not being made available to them . I must
25 accept some of the blame for that . I thought I had
39
1 done the necessary work to clear the way for me to
2 present the information and that turned out not to be
3 the case .
4 The end result was that the information that
5 I ' m presenting to you today was not made available to
6 the Planning Commission, so I would ask that you
7 temper your consideration of their recommendation for
8 approval with the knowledge that they did not have all
9 of the facts available to them .
10 The first issue that needs to be addressed
11 is the statement that this application has made every
12 effort to preserve prime farmland . This statement is
13 totally inaccurate . The applicant intends to take 40
14 plus acres of prime farm ground out of production to
15 build eight houses on one-acre lots . That is
16 everything from this ( indicating) line , this entire
17 field, to build eight one-acre lots .
18 This field is served by a new concrete ditch
19 that ' s been used to irrigate this field successfully
20 for several years . The configuration of the
21 subdivision places the homes just east of this ditch
22 and serves to separate it from the common open space .
23 The applicant stated at the Planning Commission
24 hearing that he thought maybe he could deliver the
25 irrigation water to the open space by constructing
40
1 ditches between all of the lots and dividing up the
2 water eight or nine ways and take it in between the
3 lots and somehow irrigate the open space that way .
4 Well , anybody that ' s familiar with farming knows that
5 that won' t work . You' re going to lose most of your
6 water to water loss in your ditches . It ' s just not a
7 workable solution .
8 The open space will be taken out of
9 production, and there ' s no plan to produce on this
10 acreage at all . Johnny Miller farmed this acreage for
11 several years , produced great vegetables . There ' s
12 been good corn crops , sugar beats . It ' s an excellent
13 piece of property. It should not be taken out of
14 production .
15 The applicant stated in the Planning
16 Commission hearing, and at this hearing, that a field
17 of this size couldn' t be farmed profitably. This is
18 untrue . Fields of this size are farmed successfully
19 every day. In fact , the tenant farmer on this
20 property farms fields smaller than this within a mile
r
21 of this property with no complaints at all .
22 This application needlessly wastes 3C plus
23 acres of prime farm ground . This is in direct
24 conflict with Section 22 of the Weld County
25 Comprehensive Plan . No effort has been made to
41
1 protect this land .
2 This farm used to have excellent water
3 rights on it . Mr . Shepardson chose to sell these
4 water rights to a water company for development . That
5 doesn' t mean that this land is no longer prime farm
6 ground . It just means he sold the water off .
7 This ( indicating) is a picture of the land .
8 This year they put it into a dryland crop , and we ' ll
9 explain why in a few minutes .
10 The applicant wants you to believe that this
11 application is compatible with surrounding land uses .
12 We have presented to you a petition with 173
13 signatures of residents who live within a
14 one-and-a-half mile radius of this application or have
15 business in that area who feel otherwise . Who better
16 to decide what ' s compatible than the people that live
17 and work there?
18 Residents of this area live on parcels that
19 range from five to 200 acres . These are several of
20 those parcels . As you can see , they' re all very nice
21 homes on large lots . These people are all active in
22 agricultural or animal activities . They all have
23 horses , cattle . And these are all within one mile of
24 this application . As you can see , there are no row
25 houses . There are no rows of one-acre lots .
42
1 The applicant proposes to have homes on
2 one-acre lots in a clustered arrangement . This style
3 of development is totally in conflict with the type of
4 development in this area . It is not compatible .
5 This ( indicating) slide shows the home of
6 Mike and Debra Page , landowners on the western
7 boundary of this proposed development . Debra Page
8 would like to address the issues that they have with
9 this application at this time .
10 MS . PAGE : Good morning . Can you hear me
11 okay?
12 MR . VAAD : Please state your name .
13 MS . PAGE : My name is Debra Page , and I live
14 at 14379 weld County Road 70 .
15 MR . VAAD : Thank you .
16 MS . PAGE : My husband Mike and I own the
17 property, as Mike was saying, just directly to the
18 west of this applicant . We intentionally built our
19 home with our bedroom view and our living room view to
20 the east so we could enjoy the field and the view of
21 the creek .
22 We bought our acreages from John Shepardson,
23 also the registered agent at Cattail Creek, LLC . He
24 assured us that this farm would remain a farm. He
25 stated that he couldn' t divide this land, even if he
43
1 wanted to, until another ten years , the way the County
2 laws stated and how he had exempted off other property
3 from it . So he would be prohibited to divide this
4 land for at least ten years , and that ' s when we signed
5 the contract with him .
6 My husband and I searched for land for over
7 two years . We were looking for that right piece of
8 property, and it was hard for us because we were
9 wanting to get out . My husband' s from agricultural ,
10 dairy . I was raised on farmland, grew up that way.
11 And so we looked long and hard for what we could
12 afford and what was right for us and something that
13 actually had water so we could grow hay crop , we could
14 actually feed our own animals , and we could actually
15 sell it to make a profit .
16 Our decision was based on part of the
17 statement of Mr . Shepardson . Why we bought this land
18 is that the remaining farmland in, on this ground
19 would remain farmland and in part the rural character
20 of the community that we were after .
21 The community that we live in, everyone in
22 this area, we share the same common interests , which
23 include raising livestock , farming, raising cattle ,
24 horses , and we also have a desire to have the privacy
25 afforded by large lots with distance between
44
1 neighbors . We knew we could ride our horses on these
2 roads without huge volume of traffic . That meant the
3 local traffic would probably be someone who understood
4 horses and would respect the riders and afford them
5 the courtesy of slowing down and allowing for traffic
6 so the animals could get off the road if there was
7 approaching traffic .
8 This application would change everything
9 about the community that we value so much . Eight
10 homes on one-acre lots? That would not provide enough
11 room for anyone to keep a horse or raise livestock . I
12 realize the applicant ' s representative said that they
13 could have one large animal . People who are living
14 out on one acre and homes in the range of 350 to
15 $550 , 000 , that ' s not part of our community. We ' re
16 rural cultural . The applicant ' s representative said
17 so herself . Cluster homes is not part of the rural
18 community.
19 Would the riders be forced to go off into
20 the ditches? There are steep ditches here . There ' s
21 not a lot of places for the rider to get off the road
22 with the increased traffic . If this applicant is
23 given the okay to go ahead and build this , will we
24 have to change our way of life to accommodate these
25 eight homes and their 30 to 50 residents? Definitely .
45
1 This (indicating) is a picture of the view
2 to the east of our living room and deck . If this
3 application is approved and built , our view will be of
4 eight homes in a row, very close to our property line .
5 Not only that , we would have to deal with the
6 construction from the time the property sells all
7 eight lots and the homes are built . This would
8 disrupt our way of life greatly. This is less than 50
9 feet from our property line . Actually, our property
10 line is actually adjoining the applicant ' s land .
11 We don' t want to be looking into the front
12 rooms of these homes , and we don' t want them looking
13 into our homes either . This is a direct quote from
14 the applicant in the papers that they filed for this
15 application . The application states that section
16 22 -2 - 190 -D2A PUD policy 4 -1 states , "The design of a
17 planned unit development should ensure compatibility
18 in harmony with existing and planned uses on adjacent
19 properties and within the planned unit development " .
20 "The applicant has carefully considered the
21 uses on site adjacent properties in the existing
22 agricultural use of the property . An added benefit of
23 a large amount of common open space in this particular
24 application is the buffering - - excuse me - - is the
25 buffering achieved between residential sites and
46
1 adjacent agricultural land uses " . I ask you , sirs ,
2 did you hear any reference to the buffering between
3 the row of houses and our property? No, because there
4 is no consideration given to buffering us from the
5 subdivision . There is no plan to buffer our property
6 in any way, to protect our rights as landowners .
7 The roadway into the subdivision is right on
8 our property line , and the line of houses that they
9 had listed on the plat up here starts right at the
10 road . This is incompatible in every respect . The
11 application encroaches on to our views , our privacy,
12 and our way of life .
13 I just touched on a few of the
14 incompatibilities regarding our property. There are
15 many, many more , and they will be addressed by the
16 landowners that are affected . My husband and I
17 respectfully request that this application be denied
18 on the grounds that it does not meet the requirement
19 of Section 22 -2 - 190 -D2A or Section 22 of the Weld
20 County Comprehensive Plan that requires the
21 conservation of prime farmland .
22 Thank you for your time and your attention
23 to this matter .
24 MR . VAAD : Any questions at this time?
25 Commissioner Geile .
47
1 MR . GEILE : Just for clarification,
2 Mrs . Page , when you purchased this property from
3 Mr . Shepardson - - is that correct?
4 MS . PAGE : Yes , sir . That is correct .
5 MR . GEILE : He made a statement that the
6 land to the west of you would continue to be farmed,
7 which is in essence the land that we ' re talking about
8 in this application . Was there a written disclosure
9 of that?
10 MS . PAGE : I don' t believe in the package
11 that I - -
12 MR . GEILE : Was that in the form of a
13 written statement is what I meant?
14 MS . PAGE : No , sir . That was not in the
15 form of a written statement . May I clarify a little
16 bit to you , please?
17 On our search for this land, some friends of
18 ours that owned property told us about Mr . Shepardson,
19 that he had just posted a sign there . My husband and
20 I went to his home on a Sunday afternoon .
21 Now, I don' t know if you know I ' m from the
22 south . I ' ve been here since 1979 , so I ' ve made
23 Colorado my home . I grew up by my grandmother . She
24 raised me , and she said to me as a child, your word is
25 your bond . And if your word is not your bond, then
48
1 there ' s nothing there .
2 We went to Mr . Shepardson' s home and we
3 inquired about this property, and we made a deal right
4 then and there . And one of the first things I asked
5 him is are you a man of your word and is your word
6 your bond . He shook my hand and my husband' s hand .
7 There ' s been many things that have been said
8 throughout our dealings that have not come true . This
9 was stated when we were driving this property, showing
10 where our home would be , the property that we were
11 looking to buy, is that this entire farm ground, the
12 entire 160 acres , would remain farmland . I do not
13 have that in writing . I have the man ' s word .
14 MR . GEILE : Okay . The other question I
15 had, just as a simple yes or no , was Mr . Shepardson a
16 real estate agent or did he represent himself to be a
17 real estate agent?
18 MS . PAGE : He works in conjunction with Rick
19 Cohentop of the Farm Group and who is out of Fort
20 Collins .
21 MR . GEILE : Okay . But is Mr . Shepardson a
22 real estate agent with the group or is he just - -
23 MS . PAGE : No , he is not . No, sir .
24 MR . GEILE : Okay .
25 MR . VAAD : Commissioner Jerke?
49
1 MR . JERKE : A couple questions . I ' m trying
2 to figure out exactly where your property is . If we
3 could get a good map of there , you know, the site .
4 That ' s fine . Right there . So you have the
5 island right there .
6 MS . PAGE : Yes , sir . We would be surrounded
7 on all sides .
8 MR . JERKE : Well , everything to the west of
9 you would still be farm, is that accurate?
10 MS . PAGE : No , sir . That would not
11 necessarily be a true statement . To the west of us
12 they have , they have made that a five -acre building
13 envelope to go with the 120 acres that they say
14 they' re going to leave in agricultural use .
15 MR . JERKE : Okay . The other thing I wanted
16 to ask is how many acres do you have?
17 MS . PAGE : We have ten plus acres .
18 MR . JERKE : Thank you .
19 MS . PAGE : Thank you .
20 MR . VAAD : No further questions? Thank you
21 very much .
22 MR . PAGE : Mike Page , Debra ' s husband .
23 I also want to mention that when
24 Mr . Shepardson sold us that property, he also promised
25 us - - and this is just , you know, word-of-mouth type
50
1 thing - - that we would have water, guaranteed water,
2 with that property. We ' d have nice hay, nice hay
3 ground, and get a crop every year . Well , that also
4 has not come true , so just so you know, we don ' t see
5 anything going to happen for this development
6 application any better than that . That ' s all .
7 MR . VAAD : Thank you . Questions? Thank
8 you very much .
9 Mr . Miller, let me reconfirm my
10 understanding . Now, when we talked yesterday about 15
11 to 20 minutes , and we ' re 15 minutes into that now.
12 MR . MILLER : It ' s going to extend beyond
13 that I ' m afraid . Is that going to be a problem? I do
14 represent 173 people .
15 MR . VAAD : I know . You told me that , but
16 we didn' t talk about interspersing other things in
17 your presentation . And I was expecting 15 or 20
18 minutes from you and then I will open it up , but we ' ll
19 be back to the rules of two or three minutes per
20 person . Not to be repeating but in deference to your
21 representing many people , I agreed that you said 15 to
22 20 minutes because you were representing more people .
23 Now, we ' ll try to go along with that , but I ' ll - -
24 MR . MILLER : I ' ll make it as brief as I can .
25 MR . VAAD : All right .
51
1 MR . MILLER : Okay . I am the property owner
2 to the north of this property. These ( indicating)
3 slides show the warm water slough on the north and the
4 banks of the Coal Bank Creek . As you can see , the
5 banks are steep and caving off . They' re covered with
6 vegetation and farm trash, concrete , rubble . The bed
7 is full of silt and very hazardous to cross . One of
8 my boots is still in the mud out there from when I
9 took these pictures . I hope to recover it when I get
10 some time .
11 The Planning Commission was concerned about
12 trespassing onto this creek and slough and suggested
13 fencing them from this subdivision . This cannot be
14 done because of the proximity of the floodplain . This
15 creates a serious liability issue for myself and the
16 other owners of the creek . By naming this project
17 Cattail Creek , the applicants are implying that the
18 development is associated with a creek . The very
19 placement of the open space pushes the residents
20 toward the creek and toward the slough . Yet none of
21 the creek or slough property is owned by the
22 applicants . Not one square foot of either of those
23 waterways is owned by the applicant .
24 Activities on the open space will be very
25 limited . However, they have stated that these people
52
1 can have one horse per home , and that open space will
2 be there for their enjoyment . As it is , the
3 landowners leased this land to a hunting club and
4 they' re constantly trespassing several months a year,
5 as is acknowledged by the letter from Division of
6 Wildlife . They' re out there frequently trying to keep
7 these people on this property. Consider the problems
8 that come when dozens of kids live here and come to
9 these creeks as playgrounds . There ' s no way to stop
10 it from happening .
11 I ' m very familiar with the phrase attractive
12 nuisance . The lawyers love that one . Basically what
13 it says is that no amount of signs you put up , no
14 right to farm covenant , no amount of insurance
15 protects you when you own a property that is an
16 attractive nuisance . This fits the bill perfectly.
17 So if somebody comes on this property and gets injured
18 or killed, we ' re liable for it , bottom line . And we
19 have no way of preventing it , because you can' t fence
20 them out and we can' t be standing there guarding our
21 property line all the time . And you know kids . When
22 they see a creek, are they going to stand out in the
23 middle of this dry field of open space or are they
24 going to go to the creek? They' re going to go to the
25 creek . Why should we be placed in that liability
53
1 position? If I ' ve ever seen an incompatible
2 situation, this is it .
3 The farm to the east is owned by Pat and
4 Clair McNear . That would be this property right up
5 here (indicating) . As you can see , their equipment
6 storage area is on the east bank of the creek . This
7 is heavy equipment with sharp edges . Sometimes it ' s
8 locked up and it ' s not altogether stable when it ' s
9 stored for future use . I want to emphasize in no way
10 is this method of storage of equipment derelict or
11 haphazard, but it ' s just the way farm equipment is
12 stored. I think you' re all familiar with that . How
13 do we keep these kids from climbing on this equipment?
14 It ' s a half a mile from McNear' s house to
15 this equipment . It ' s three-eights of a mile from
16 where I intend to build. If somebody gets injured or
17 needs help, who' s going to know, who' s going to be
18 there to help them? They could lay there for days . I
19 don' t want to have to be the one to find a body or
20 injured person, and I certainly don' t want my kids or
21 my granddaughter to be finding somebody that ' s hurt .
22 I've struggled with the way to mitigate this
23 danger. I haven' t found but one . And the only way to
24 mitigate the danger from the creek and that slough is
25 to not allow this subdivision to be built here . If
54
1 you can find a better way, I would love to hear it,
2 but we've explored every possibility and there really
3 is no way to protect us from the liability of having
4 these people live next door.
5 These sloughs are filled with silt and mud.
6 You cannot walk across them. You have to bridge them
7 somehow. If you walk into them, you' re stuck. There
8 are numerous obstacles and hazards and believe me,
9 when I bought the property, it was a mess . It had
10 been abandoned for several years, and I 'm kind of
11 ashamed to show you those pictures of it . That' s not
12 the way I usually take care of my property, but it ' s
13 going to take me a couple of years to clean up 30
14 years of trash.
15 I 'm also working with the Division of
16 Wildlife to create a wildlife refuge on that property.
17 I plan to spend over $100 , 000 building habitat to try
18 and provide a place for wildlife to live . As you
19 know, the farming practices these days pretty much
20 sterilize the ground to maximize farming efficiencies
21 and I don' t like that .
22 I 've got a property here that' s bounded on
23 two sides by water. I intend to take the property in
24 the center, build a pond in there, build wildlife
25 habitat so they have a place to go where they' re
55
1 protected. That is not compatible with having eight
2 homes within 150 feet of my property.
3 I will address safety. The applicant, if
4 successful, will more than double the amount of
5 traffic on County Road 70 . According to the Traffic
6 Engineer' s report, 40 percent of that traffic will go
7 west on 70 to the intersection of 29 and 70 . Barb
8 Perusek would like to express her views on this since
9 she and her husband live at the intersection of 29 and
10 70 . And she has a brief statement she would like to
11 make .
12 MR. VAAD: Welcome to the Board. If you
13 could give me your name and address for our records .
14 MS . PERUSEK: My name is Barb Perusek . I
15 live at 34024 WRC 29 , and I would like to speak a
16 little bit on safety.
17 MR. VAAD: All right . Let me address this .
18 Since now I' m understanding that this presentation
19 will be interspersed, I will limit those comments to
20 two minutes .
21 MS . PERUSEK: Okay. Fine .
22 MR. VAAD: Thank you.
23 MS . PERUSEK: I would like to address the
24 issue of traffic safety and paving on the country
25 roads and entrance to the row of homes to be built .
56
1 The intersection of County Road 31 and
2 County Road 70 is a very dangerous intersection.
3 There is a hill approach going north on 31 which
4 obstructs the traffic traveling to the south at a very
5 high rate of speed. It is controlled by the State
6 Patrol, and they' re trying to present, prevent it but
7 it doesn' t happen.
8 When trying to get on 31 from 70, it ' s very
9 difficult, at its best, because you are leaving gravel
10 going on to pavement . And when you accelerate, it
11 really creates a hazard. The intersection of County
12 Roads 70 and 29 is down on our corner, and it' s very
13 dangerous . Because of the heavy traffic on County
14 Road 31 , there are many commercial trucks that use 29
15 going either north or south. 29 is gravel, and they
16 travel 55 to 70 miles per hour to get on to the
17 Highway 14 north or south on 392 .
18 The view at the corner of 29 and 70 is
19 obstructed, and it is very common for our local
20 families, farmers, and residents to just roll through
21 the stop sign. That is our mistake, but we' re used to
22 country living . If we were to add more family
23 vehicles to the area, it will only aggravate this
24 problem. All of us that live in the area know and
25 respect the farmers with their equipment, and they
57
1 were here first so we let them go first .
2 As you know, dust is always a problem and
3 associated with dirt roads, as the Commissioner
4 commented. They are both very heavily dusty roads ,
5 and we live with it because we chose to live there and
6 we don' t mind it . But I don' t know if the row homes
7 of eight people will appreciate that . Adding more
8 traffic will only compound the problem.
9 The applicants have requested not to pave
10 Weld County Road 70, and at our first hearing they
11 were going to put a chemical compound on it from 31
12 down to their housing development . This will not
13, work, because the reason is we've lived there for
14 almost 20 years --
15 MR. VAAD: Would you please sum up?
16 MS . PERUSEK: The treated -- the row homes
17 will not exist, exit to just 31, but they' ll also come
18 west to 29 .
19 This application is in direct conflict with
20 everything that all of us currently living in the area
21 have strived for, and it would ruin our quality of
22 life . Out of the respect for the current residents, I
23 am asking would you please deny this application.
24 MR. VAAD : Thank you. Other questions?
25 Thank you very much.
58
1 MR. MILLER: As you can see from this
2 (indicating) sign, horseback riding in the area is
3 quite popular.
4 MR. VAAD : We' ll trust that that ' s what it
5 says .
6 MR. MILLER: Caution horseback riding.
7 MR. VAAD: Thank you.
8 MR. MILLER: I'm not a photographer by
9 trade . Bill Perusek has a very brief statement he' d
10 like to make about riding horses on the roads .
11 MR. VAAD : Thank you for coming. If you' ll
12 give us your name and address, please, and I trust
13 you've read the instruction --
14 MR. PERUSEK: Good morning, Commissioner.
15 Bill Perusek. I live at 34024 Weld County Road 29 .
16 I have a great concern that this applicant
17 is not compatible for the area in which it' s
18 agriculture, equine and other livestock, feedlots and
19 so forth. If more traffic would be added to this
20 area, the County roads that all of us use now with our
21 horses would not be safe . Many of our neighbors have
22 horses, very common. Everybody rides their horses on
23 Roads 70 and 29 . The addition of 40 to 60 more
24 vehicles per day from this project will put horse and
25 riders in a very dangerous situation, and they no
59
1 longer will be able to ride these roads . They would
2 not be able to get in the ditch. As pictures show,
3 the ditches are too steep, too deep . It would be an
4 accident waiting to happen.
5 We live in this area because of country
6 style of living, and it' s a very high and productive
7 farm area, good row crops, good hay ground. These row
8 houses would be contrary to the historical use of this
9 area and would be in direct conflict with the present
10 use of the land.
11 I would also like to comment that row, acre
12 row - - I would like to comment on the one-acre row
13 house sites . If they' re considering having equine,
14 livestock, it seems that the lot with a 300 to
15 $500 , 000 home, two outbuildings, two- or three-car
16 garage, there would be no place for an animal , a
17 horse, to be on this property.
18 We are the livestock -- where are the
19 livestock going to stay? They cannot go on the green
20 open space .
21 I ' m asking that you deny this application
22 because of the harmful effects that would come with
23 the addition of these homes clustered in one property
24 and so close and hurtful to the neighbors adjoining on
25 the west . And it would take away our country living
60
1 style as this development is certainly not compatible
2 with our area .
3 MR. VAAD : Thank you very much. Any other
4 questions? Thank you.
5 MR. MILLER: Well, we've addressed the
6 intersection at 31 and 70 and 29 and 70 . Take a look
7 at the intersection of 392 and 31 . Between
8 66-and-a-half and 392 the last traffic count showed
9 2 , 729 cars a day using that road. When you go north,
10 that goes down to 1, 706 cars . That means 1, 000 cars a
11 day turn left or right off of 31 on to 392 . We all
12 know that those crosses over there in the corner
13 behind that stop sign are there for a reason. That' s
14 because five people have been killed at that
15 intersection in the past couple years . Numerous
16 accidents happen there all the time, and do we add
17 another 30 or 40 or 50 trips to that intersection?
18 Not until there are some improvements made to it, and
19 there are no improvements on the books to happen in
20 the near future .
21 The farm to the east has some significant
22 potential for safety problems . This (indicating) is
23 looking down Coal Bank Creek to the north. The
24 property line goes from this post right along the
25 creek. This is the applicant property here . You see
61
1 over here there' s a treater for this oil tank battery.
2 There' s also this tail pond right here that gets the
3 water from the fields up above, and they pump it back
4 up and irrigate with it . As you can see, this tail
5 pond is full of silt . It ' s got steep banks that are
6 covered with vegetation. It ' s very difficult to get
7 out of here unless you can get a grip on a tree or
8 something.
9 If you look here, the tank next to the oil
10 battery. And this kind of invites kids to look in
11 here, doesn' t it? Now how are you going to keep the
12 kids out of that tail pond, how are you going to keep
13 them out of this tank battery, how are you going to
14 keep them out of the creek? It can' t be done, so
15 we' re inviting problems if you bring all of these
16 people into this area.
17 Once again, here' s the storage area for
18 McNear' s farm equipment . It' s right out in the open
19 and it' s an invitation. Kids go - - you know, kids are
20 curious . They' re going to go there . How are we going
21 to protect us from that liability? Why should the
22 owners of these properties have to shoulder the burden
23 of the liability? It ' s incompatible . There' s no
24 other way to look at it .
25 Now let' s address the ugly issue of water.
62
1 This issue is very complicated, and please bear with
2 us here because to say it' s complicated is an
3 understatement .
4 The domestic water issues have been
5 addressed by the new water line . The irrigation
6 issues are complicated. The applicant has stated that
7 they intend to provide 20 shares of Wood Lake Mutual
8 water to irrigate this open space . At the last minute
9 they added another half share of Larimer Weld water
10 when they were questioned about it at the Planning
11 Commission hearing. After some investigation, some
12 very disturbing information has come to light and
13 we' ll, we' ll address that .
14 Now, the comments I' ve gotten about
15 irrigating the open space have been that applications
16 have been approved in the past where there was no
17 irrigation on open space . My understanding of that is
18 that most of those were on dryland properties and most
19 of these developments take place in places where it ' s
20 unused farm ground where they aren' t irrigating it in
21 the first place .
22 This is prime farm ground. These people are
23 allowed one horse per lot, and where are they going to
24 ride that horse? They' re going to put it out on this
25 open space . They said they' re going to put
63
1 drought-tolerant grasses on this property.
2 Drought-tolerant grasses will not survive if they' re
3 being used for horse activities . The only way to make
4 this a viable open space is to irrigate it .
5 Vickie Mill, the past secretary of Wood Lake
6 Mutual Water and Irrigation Company would like to
7 address the value of these 20 shares of Wood Lake
8 water.
9 MR. VAAD : Thank you for coming. If you' ll
10 give us your name .
11 MS . MILL: Good morning. My name is Vickie
12 Mill . I live at 34743 Weld County Road 29, which is
13 directly across the road to the west .
14 I 'm the past secretary, as of this last
15 January, I was secretary/treasurer for Wood Lake
16 Mutual for about 13 years, so I'm well aware of the
17 functions of the company.
18 And I wanted to address the issue of
19 irrigation water that' s been represented to accompany
20 this application. According to the application of the
21 Cattail Creek Homeowners Association, 20 acres of Wood
22 Lake Mutual would be deeded to this . 20 shares of
23 Wood Lake Mutual would be deeded. Now, they've
24 represented that this is equivalent to one-and-a-half
25 to two-and-a-half acre feet of water per share . This
64
1 is absolutely not true .
2 Wood Lake Mutual shares are only good in and
3 of themselves for seep water, which does not mean any
4 early water, which does not mean any storage water
5 that would come from other supporting laterals .
6 This year because of the drought , the seep
7 water was only able to deliver six-tenths of a share
8 to property owners who only had Wood Lake Mutual .
9 That would give this applicant 12 acre feet over the
10 30 some acres, not enough.
11 The promised addition of a half share of
12 Larimer irrigation stock would add only a small amount
13 of water, which would amount to about five acre feet .
14 And this would not be enough water to irrigate the
15 open space even in a good year. And keep in mind that
16 this half acre or half share of Larimer and Weld is
17 not on the application. That was something that was
18 simply stated, kind of as a Band-aid, when we
19 mentioned that there was no water except for seep,
20 unless he had supporting ditch company.
21 There' s also the issue of delivering what
22 water is available to the site . Currently under the
23 system that exists now, there' s no lateral to carry
24 water to that site . So even if they had additional
25 water from a supporting ditch company, in addition to
65
1 their seep, they can' t even get it to their property
2 to irrigate it .
3 With these things in mind, I would like you
4 to urge, I would like to urge you to deny this
5 application on the basis that there' s an inability to
6 properly irrigate the open space, and eventually, you
7 know, what it would end up being would be noxious
8 weeds . Thank you.
9 MR. VAAD: Thank you . Any questions?
10 Commissioner Geile .
11 MR. GEILE : Yeah. I 've been waiting for
12 somebody to ask this question. Maybe you can help me,
13 but can you tell me what Cattail Creek is, who owns
14 it, what' s it a tributary from, who has rights on it ,
15 is it the river, on the creek? In other words,
16 everybody' s talking about Cattail Creek, and I don' t
17 know who has the ownership responsibility. Is it a
18 ditch company, what is it?
19 MS . MILL: Well, I'm going to have somebody
20 else answer that question who actually lives right
21 on - - it ' s not Cattail Creek, by the way. It' s Coal
22 Bank Creek. So Pat, Pat McNear will answer that
23 question for you. Thank you.
24 MR. VAAD : Thank you .
25 MR. McNEAR: Would you like it at this time?
66
1 MR. MILLER: Actually, we' ll bring Pat up
2 here in just a minute .
3 MR. VAAD: Ma' am, if we could ask you one
4 more question. Commissioner Jerke .
5 MR. JERKE : Yeah. I just had a question
6 for the record. The 12 acre feet delivered this year
7 was six-tenths of average or normal?
8 MS . MILL: Yes .
9 MR. JERKE: So typically you would get an
10 acre foot per share .
11 MS . MILL: Approximately.
12 MR. JERKE : So typically you' d have roughly
13 20 acre feet delivered?
14 MS . MILL: Approximately.
15 MR. JERKE : Potentially delivered.
16 And the other question is you keep talking
17 about seep . Is it seep delivery into Wood Lake that
18 feeds it?
19 MS . MILL: Well, Wood Lake delivers several
20 different sources of water, and Reuben Hergert can
21 verify this if I' m wrong. There are different sources
22 of the seep water that come into the lake all the
23 time, and that ' s what we consider seep . It' s not
24 delivered by Larimer and Weld. It' s not delivered by
25 canal . Those are supplemental . If somebody owned
67
1 property with only Wood Lake Mutual, they only have
2 access to that seep water in proportion to the amount
3 of shares that they own.
4 MR. JERKE : Okay. And the other question
5 would be is the Coal Bank Creek, and there might be
6 somebody better to answer this, but does Coal Bank
7 Creek, is that seep water that begins to emanate out
8 of Wood Lake?
9 MS . MILL: That would have to be answered by
10 someone else.
11 MR. VAAD: Thank you.
12 MR. MILLER: And that someone else is Reuben
13 Hergert . He' s the President of Wood Lake Mutual Water
14 Company, and he will try to clear up some of these
15 issues for you.
16 MR. VAAD: Thank you. Thank you for
17 coming, Mr. Hergert . If you' ll give us your name .
18 MR. HERGERT: Good morning. I am Reuben
19 Hergert, address is 12315 Weld County Road 72 . I have
20 a 237-acre farm right south of this development . It
21 runs from Road 29 east down to the slough ditch, Coal
22 Bank Creek.
23 I have been President of the Wood Lake
24 Mutual Water and Irrigation Company since its
25 inception 17 years ago . At the present time there is
68
1 no way this system can deliver water to this
2 development from Woods Lake .
3 The applicant is on record stating that
4 there is a new concrete ditch and center pivot on the
5 west lot which will continue to be agriculture . The
6 ditch is the only way to get the water to the
7 property. Additional water will be forced down the
8 east lateral concrete ditch through new culverts that
9 are located under the road to the property. The
10 applicant later, when questioned by Planning staff,
11 went on to make several misleading and incorrect
12 statements .
13 In the past there was a ditch serving this
14 property which delivered water to the 30-acre parcel
15 on the west side of the field that is south of the
16 proposed PUD. When the center pivot system was
17 installed, this ditch was removed and no longer
18 exists .
19 The reasons that delivery of irrigation
20 water to the proposed site are not feasible are as
21 follows : The applicant would have to deliver water
22 from Woods Lake into Meyers Lake and then down an
23 overflow line to a point where an illegal diversion
24 box and 1600 feet of pipeline was installed by the
25 applicant to divert water to the subject two years
69
1 ago .
2 The water stored in Meyers Lake is waste or
3 runoff water from eight farms and does not receive
4 water from Woods Lake . The problem with this is that
5 the Cattail Group has no rights to the overflow water
6 flowing from Meyers Lake and which has been filed on
7 by downstream users .
8 The applicant has created points of
9 diversion in two places and has been taking this water
10 to irrigate the parcel . In 2001 they had been
11 irrigating this parcel with tail water from two other
12 farms . These practices are not consistent with
13 Colorado water law and will have to cease .
14 The applicant has stated that they plan to
15 transfer one-half share of Larimer Weld Irrigation
16 Company. Other interests in this water have been
17 promised to other parties by one of the principals of
18 this group. Nothing has ever been transferred.
19 Larimer Weld Irrigation Company has direct flow water
20 which cannot be stored in our system and must pass
21 directly through and be put to use at the time of its
22 delivery. This water will deliver usually through mid
23 to late June; however, there are years that it will
24 only run one week or less .
25 Also one-half share after shrink is just not
70
1 enough volume to make an adequate amount of water to
2 manage efficiently. It is becoming more difficult to
3 deliver such small amounts of water and to ask the
4 company to further divide small amounts of water for a
5 limited time . It is too much burden on this company.
6 The applicant has sold all stored water
7 rights from this, from the farm, 95 shares of Divide
8 Canal and Reservoir Company, or about 125 acre feet ,
9 more or less . Therefore, the applicant has no
10 ownership of stored water rights to contribute to the
11 Woods Lake Mutual Company.
12 At this time of the stored water sale, the
13 applicant entered into a dry-up covenant, which places
14 further restrictions on this farm. What this means is
15 that other water that orginates from the Wooster
16 Reservoir or Divide Canal cannot be utilized for any
17 other purpose on these lands . Most of the stored
18 water owned by other shareholders which passes through
19 Woods Lake is from this source . This is an issue that
20 will be addressed by the Board of Directors prior to
21 the 2003 delivery season. With no reservoir water to
22 contribute, the company will not be able to deliver
23 stored water to this property.
24 Based on what the applicant has presented,
25 it is obvious that the applicants have not planned
71
1 well when it comes to water for this project . Please
2 deny this application.
3 If there are questions, I would like to have
4 them addressed to Pat McNear. He' s a realtor and is
5 very knowledgeable on water issues, and he also is
6 very knowledgeable about the Woods Lake system.
7 Are there any questions for Pat McNear?
8 MR. VAAD: Thank you, Mr. Hergert . Are
9 there questions of Mr. Hergert at this time?
10 Thank you very much.
11 Let me announce how we' ll proceed. We' ll
12 keep going until ten minutes to 12 : 00, at which time
13 we will recess and we' ll pick up again at 1 : 30 .
14 MR. MILLER: At this time Pat McNear will
15 pick up the discussion of this water issue and try and
16 even muddy it , if I can say muddy the water, a little
17 more .
18 MR. MCNEAR: Pat McNear. I live at 34499
19 County Road 31, Greeley. Can you hear me okay?
20 MR. VAAD:. Thank you .
21 MR. MCNEAR: Do you have any questions
22 regarding what Mr. Hergert had presented?
23 MR. VAAD : Commissioner Jerke .
24 MR. JERKE : I guess just one question
25 regarding the center pivot sprinkler that the
72
1 applicants have for the rest of the farmland. What is
2 the source of the water to run that sprinkler?
3 MR. MCNEAR: As Reuben has stated, when he
4 installed that, he took out the ditch that
5 historically delivered water to this parcel and
6 diverted from an illegal point on water rights that he
7 does not own, a system to deliver water to this
8 property.
9 MR. JERKE : I want to be specific . Are we
10 talking about the 40 acres or so of actual developed
11 property, or are we talking about the land that would
12 remain as farmland?
13 MR. MCNEAR: The 40 acres or so is what we
14 diverted the -- or I'm sorry -- what he constructed
15 the pipeline to deliver the water.
16 MR. JERKE : But my question is specifically
17 on the farmland remaining.
18 MR. MCNEAR: The remaining farmland has
19 delivery of water, yes .
20 MR. JERKE : Okay. It does have - -
21 MR. MCNEAR: To the pivot , yes . Yes, it
22 does . It does not have any deeded or stock ownership
23 in any stored water rights, however, unless they own
24 some that I'm not aware of .
25 I could expand on that as Reuben had left,
73
1 if you would care --
2 MR. VAAD : Since there weren' t any
3 questions, why don' t you just go on to your portion?
4 MR. MCNEAR: Sure . I ' ve also prepared a
5 package for you to follow along with so that we can
6 conserve time here .
7 As stated I 'm Patrick McNear. I own Scott
8 Realty Company and have been actively involved in real
9 estate sales for the past 25 years, specializing in
10 sales of all types of property and water rights in the
11 rural sector. I have also been involved in the
12 evaluation and certification of real property values
13 for about the same, for about as long. I have been
14 licensed in accordance with the Colorado Regulatory
15 Agency as Certified General Appraiser since 1992 .
16 In addition to evaluation of land and water
17 rights, I have recently analyzed and certified value
18 for several of the recent subdivision projects
19 currently on line in Greeley and Eaton. I often give
20 testimony and am recognized as an expert witness in
21 the district and divisions court cases regarding
22 property value .
23 Having said that, I will present
24 marketability issues .
25 The applicant has stated that the proposed
74
1 subdivision, which is minimal, with minimal amenities
2 consisting of a row of one-acre tract housing in the
3 County will be marketed for $150 , 000 per site with
4 improvements consisting of custom to semi-custom
5 homes, I'm quoting his plan, costing $350 , 000 to
6 $500 , 000 .
7 Apparently they haven' t done an accurate
8 study of the market in this area . This is Weld
9 County, and even though it is a desirable sector, it
10 is still Weld County. In my many years in the real
11 estate business, I have gained experience building
12 custom and to semi-custom homes in the rural sector.
13 In the past few years, rising development costs,
14 coupled with increasing land and water costs, the
15 value allocated for improvements and profit has
16 declined. The overall cost has caused the value of
17 improvements which is placed on these sites to
18 diminish, and for those reasons I am no longer
19 involved in such projects . Statistics, as well as
20 experience and common sense, do not support the
21 numbers in this marketplace .
22 You will find attached, the first chart is a
23 summary of recently sold recorded exemption-type lots
24 in this location. These sales are of individual
25 parcels and are more desirable than say the lots in
75
1 the proposed subdivision. And there are limited, very
2 few, I think two to be exact, one-acre sales .
3 However, if you consider three to five acres, which
4 are more desirable, you' ll see that these sales range
5 from 60 to $80 , 000 per site .
6 In comparison of one- to nine-acre sites in
7 similar subdivisions, this is -- and those
8 subdivisions are listed, if you can read that small in
9 that second or third column on the next chart . These
10 are three one-acre type subdivisions, one- to
11 three-acre type subdivisions, in the area with
12 probably more desirable location, with amenities that
13 are more desirable than a 30-acre common area that
14 serves no purpose . These are Baldridge - - you can
15 read what subdivisions are listed there . A comparison
16 of these suggests these lots were marketed in the
17 range of basically the same area .
18 Looking at that chart on the second graph,
19 the lower chart is a demonstration of linear
20 regression. And if. you bunch the lots up into
21 three-acre areas there, you' ll see that typically
22 you' re talking about a $75, 000 site .
23 Same holds true with the first chart, the
24 bottom chart on the front chart of recorded
25 exemptions . It ' s spread out a little wider because I
76
1 took that all the way to, there' s ten- and 11- and
2 13 - , 14-acre parcels in there . Still the highest
3 value you see for any of these is a $110 , 000 sale .
4 They' re demonstrating a regression value in the range
5 of probably 65 to 70 , 000 for the three-acre parcels .
6 Let ' s all be honest here . The true market
7 for these lots range is 65 to 75, 000, and if allowed
8 to proceed, the improvements will diminish if the
9 market is slow. That ' s the way the market reacts .
10 The applicant indicated a minimum of 1500
11 square foot for improvements . Using simple math, this
12 equates to a $75, 000 site, a $140 , 000 improvement ,
13 $25, 000 in site improvements, or $240 , 000 finished
14 product . Products in this range may stand a chance;
15 however, this is not as what has been represented as
16 the product that will be on these lots . That' s what
17 will fit there . That' s what will end up there . That
18 is not compatible with the surrounding land use .
19 I had a recent discussion with Tom Rainbolt,
20 a knowledgeable lender from Farm Credit Services, who
21 studies much of the activity as well . He indicated
22 feelings the same as mine in that farther into Weld - -
23 I ' m sorry - - farther into Larimer County a project of
24 this nature may stand a chance, based on the numbers
25 presented. We were both in agreement that the project
77
1 as described has no place in this location.
2 The market clearly does not support this
3 project . There is an inadequate supply of un -- I' m
4 sorry - - there is an adequate supply of unimproved
5 lots, as well as existing improved properties to
6 satisfy the current market for quite sometime .
7 Therefore, supply and demand are in
8 equilibrium. There' s a great deal of development
9 coming on line on both sides of Larimer and Weld
10 County in that area of Pine Creek, Windsor, Severance
11 just west of us, with more amenities, as well as
12 infrastructure . This will better satisfy the demand
13 for this type of housing for many years to come .
14 In addition to not being economically
15 feasible --
16 MR. VAAD : Mr. McNear, can I ask you to sum
17 up? And I 'm not sure this next paragraph needs to be
18 read publicly. It ' s a matter of record.
19 MR. MCNEAR: Okay. I ' ll sum it up by saying
20 that they' ve also addressed the issue of covenants .
21 As we all know, or have seen in instances where
22 covenants are not enforced by their own people, they
23 absolutely, nobody' s there to enforce them.
24 I' d like to say this is neither the time or
25 place for this development . This developer does not
78
1 have a history or a track record of completing a
2 project of this nature .
3 MR. VAAD : Thank you, Mr. McNear.
4 Questions?
5 MR. GEILE : Just one briefly getting up to
6 the third paragraph, the one above, where you talk
7 about adequate supply of lots, are you talking about
8 an urban area, because this is not an urban area .
9 MR. MCNEAR: I 'm talking about the rural
10 sector, yes .
11 MR. GEILE : So you say there is an adequate
12 supply of unimproved lots in the rural sector?
13 . MR. MCNEAR: Yes, sir.
14 MR. GEILE : Do you have some data to back
15 that up?
16 MR. MCNEAR: I pulled comps . I ' m sorry. I
17 pulled County records from our system, and yes,
18 there' s an adequate supply. We' re in equilibrium.
19 There' s -- actually there' s more available than what
20 is in demand at this time. And as stated, there are
21 proposals coming on line west of Severance clear
22 through to almost Tinmuth and in the Windsor area that
23 provide acreage parcels where there is an
24 infrastructure available and much better amenities
25 than what we have to offer here .
79
1 MR. GEILE : Thank you.
2 MR. MCNEAR: I would like to -- there was
3 another item in my presentation that I wanted to touch
4 on. Commissioner Geile had questioned the land value
5 in that warranty deed. I saw the same thing, and the
6 numbers just don' t add up . You know, I saw a million
7 dollar transfer there, and it put a lot of questions
8 in my mind as to where this subdivision is going. And
9 if they paid that much for it , you can' t find the end
10 of the line paying that much for those land values .
11 And you had specifically asked to break that
12 out into how do you justify that value in that sale .
13 There' s nothing that adds up from a, a comparable
14 market situation there, so -- .
15 MR. VAAD : Thank you very much. We are
16 recessed until 1 : 30 . I ' ll allow questions if you need
17 when we come back on that , and we' ll continue at that
18 time . We' re at recess .
19 (Luncheon recess from 11 : 54 a .m. to 1 : 30
20 p .m. )
21 MR. VAAD: Okay. We will call the meeting
22 back to order.
23 MR. MILLER: Well, now good afternoon. I do
24 appreciate you extending our time period. I
25 understand you' re very busy, and we do appreciate your
80
1 allowing us to continue with this .
2 Mr. Geile you had asked the question about
3 the ownership of the water in Coal Bank Creek and that
4 was not addressed appropriately.
5 Coal Bank Creek runs along this boundary
6 here (indicating) , and you can see it go up here . It
7 actually orginates about 15 miles north of this
8 property, and it is essentially seep water that
9 accumulates in there and creates the creek . The State
10 of Colorado owns the water, but there are decrees on
11 the creek . There are rights on the creek. I own
12 rights to the creek that allow me to irrigate up to
13 1200 acres off of it , and there's another gentleman
14 here that owns rights on the creek that will be
15 addressing you shortly. But they are all appropriate
16 rights and they are, of course, like everything else
17 in Colorado, they are all claimed by somebody. So any
18 use of that water is limited to those people that hold
19 the decrees on the water.
20 We had discussed a little bit earlier this
21 diversion structure that has been irrigating this
22 property. That structure runs or there' s a head gate
23 right here on Meyers Lake . It runs -- there' s an
24 underground pipeline runs across here and dumps in
25 Coal Bank Creek right about there . About , oh, a
81
1 couple of years ago there was a breach in that line
2 and let me see if I can find it . Right about -- this
3 is that line right here . There was a breach in that
4 line right about here . The ditch company had to dig
5 the line up and replace the line, and at that time
6 Mr. Shepardson installed -- well, let me see if I can
7 find it -- this structure here .
8 As you can see, there are two head gates
9 here . This (indicating) head gate here continues the
10 line across and dumps into Coal Bank Creek. This line
11 here diverts the water out of there over to a spot
12 right about here where this pit is . This pit fills up
13 with that water, and then it overflows through this
14 culvert into this concrete ditch. This water is part
15 of the water that ' s part of Coal Bank Creek. It is
16 appropriated water, and Mr. Shepardson has no rights
17 to this water. So that water is not available to him.
18 During the course of this, of looking into
19 this, I found another issue that I find very
20 disturbing. This summer Mr. Shepardson came on to my
21 property right about here (indicating) with his
22 backhoe, dug a trench, and intercepted the water in
23 that slough on the west edge of my property.
24 Installed a line that runs down the edge of the slough
25 and dumps into this pond right here that' s on his
82
1 property. This is also not his water.
2 And he has his home up for sale here, and
3 part of his advertising for this home is two ponds on
4 the property for your use or for irrigation. It ' s all
5 fine and dandy, but it ' s not his water.
6 This (indicating) is a picture of the slough
7 upstream from where he has put in the diversion. This
8 is what it looks like downstream from the diversion.
9 This slough has been in place for hundreds of years .
10 Now it' s dry. And I can assure you shortly this will
11 change, because I just became aware of it and it is
12 against the law to do that and I would like to know
13 what his reasoning is for it .
14 The purpose of this is to show that we are
15 dealing with a developer here who does things on his
16 own. He doesn' t necessarily obey the rules . He makes
17 his own rules . Hey, I want that water, I ' ll just
18 divert it . If I get caught, great . Is that the kind
19 of guy we want developing next to our property? I
20 don' t . Now I ' ve got to go hire an attorney to get
21 back my water rights that I owned in the first place .
22 What ' s going to happen if this man' s allowed to
23 develop eight lots on this 40 acres? It' s going to be
24 a nightmare .
25 One of the gentlemen that' s here today is
83
1 named Harlan Simensen. Mr. Simensen owns property,
2 oh, let' s see here if my computer will speed up.
3 Where Coal Bank Creek runs down here, Mr . Simensen
4 owns property down here where he relies on the water
5 from Coal Bank Creek to irrigate . And he would like
6 to address you regarding his water rights in this
7 issue .
8 MR. VAAD: Welcome to the Board of County
9 Commissioners . Would you please give us your name and
10 address?
11 MR. SIMENSEN: My name is Harlan Simensen.
12 My address is 35540 Weld County Road 25, Eaton. And
13 in November I bought the Stockover farm, which is on
14 31 and goes down to 392 . And that farm, that' s where
15 it gets all of its water for irrigation. And, you
16 know, I just learned about this, well, within the last
17 week about this water diversion. And, consequently,
18 this summer we were fairly short of water all summer,
19 and the farmer I had farming it was short of water.
20 So because of this diversion, I guess, I was short of
21 water and I guess we plan to take action to get that
22 stopped as well so thank you .
23 MR. VAAD : Are there any questions of
24 Mr. Simensen? Thank you very much.
25 MR. MILLER: One of the statements made by
84
1 the applicant was that the homeowners would water
2 their lots with taps from North Weld Water. I 'm sure
3 you followed the developments of irrigation in Weld
4 County in the new subdivisions and most of the new
5 subdivisions with putting in dual water systems where
6 the domestic water comes from treated sources like
7 North Weld Water. The outside irrigation comes from
8 irrigation water, so we' re not taxing our water
9 delivery systems so bad. Here' s this subdivision out
10 in the middle of the country, and they' re going to
11 rely entirely on treated water to irrigate their lots .
12 They made the statement that, well, gosh, we
13 get 228 , 000 gallons of water every month. Well,
14 that ' s not necessarily true . Our water companies are
15 struggling to keep up with demand as it is, and
16 whether you've got an eight-inch line in there or a
17 six-inch line in there, if your water rights are not
18 being delivered, you don' t get but your proportionate
19 share of your water rights .
20 Joe Houge.s is a resident lives right here
21 (indicating) I believe, and he' d like to address that
22 because he has a recent history in this kind of a
23 problem. Mr. Houges .
24 MS . VAAD: Welcome to the Board. If you' d
25 please gives us your name and address?
85
1 MR. HOUGES : My name is Joe Houges . I live
2 at 34251 Weld County Road 31 about a half mile east of
3 this property we' re discussing this morning, this
4 afternoon.
5 The statement was made this morning about
6 the delivery of North Weld taps . And it ' s true that
7 this year they had a 70 percent allotment, which was
8 the 228 , 000 gallons . That allotment changes every
9 year. And it' s based on the Colorado Big T project,
10 the water available out of Lake Granby. They have
11 already sent out notices for next year that they
12 expect the allotment next year to be 30 percent .
13 Now they've said that North Weld is happy to
14 sell taps . Well, of course, they are . That' s an
15 additional cash flow to their coffers . That' s how
16 they run their business . I would do the same thing.
17 The fact of the matter is, the average household in
18 this area does not get by for 110 , 000 gallons a year.
19 I consider our household to be fairly average . I have
20 one wife, two kids,, two cats and one dog. In the
21 months June, July and August on my house and the area
22 of grass around my house, we consumed 100 , 000 gallons
23 of water. And we have no livestock. We don' t have an
24 oversized yard. It wouldn' t be any bigger than what
25 these proposed estate homes would have around them.
86
1 They' re typical .
2 Myself and other neighbors , every year we
3 have gone to North Weld and rented additional units .
4 North Weld is no longer going to do that . You can
5 exchange water rights or you buy your water from them
6 and if you go over your allotments and next year if
7 you go over 100 , 000 you pay a surcharge . I have not
8 heard anybody talk about the exorbitant surcharges
9 charged by North Weld Water, but it can amount to a
10 couple hundred dollars a months just in surcharges .
11 So I would just like to be clear that I ' ve
12 lived there 17 years, and not one of those 17 years
13 has one unit of North Weld water been adequate for the
14 needs of my family and the immediate needs of watering
15 my lawn around the house . Any questions?
16 MR. VAAD: Any questions? Thank you very
17 much.
18 MR. MILLER: As I stated before, with a
19 little bit of planning, Cattail Creek could have been
20 designed with dual water systems . But it ' s indicative
21 of the lack of planning of the entire subdivision that
22 this wasn' t even considered.
23 And in the Denver Post this week there was
24 an article with the headline "Growth Flooding Colorado
25 With Worry Over Water Supply" . This article addresses
87
1 the worries of Coloradans over future water supplies .
2 In the article, Colorado Supreme Court Justice Gregory
3 Hobbs, who himself has been a water attorney for 30
4 years, states that "Local and state governments must
5 consider water in all land use decisions because
6 that ' s where water supply plans are made . If not, the
7 people should hold the public officials accountable" .
8 I know this is a lot of information to
9 absorb in a short time, and I ' ll try to summarize it
10 very quickly.
11 Basically the positive aspects of this case
12 are one : That ' s profit to the developer. And there
13 are some serious questions about profit to the
14 developer. They made a million dollars for this piece
15 of property, on paper. There have been some issues
16 about who the owners are. I checked with the
17 Secretary of State' s website last night and
18 Mr. Shepardson is the only registered member of
19 Cattail Creek, LLC as of September 28th, 2002 . I 've
20 seen no documentation to show anything different than
21 that .
22 If they paid a million dollars for this
23 property and if the market studies Mr . McNear did are
24 correct , and they have to sell eight lots at 65 , 000
25 bucks apiece, you can do the math. This property is
88
1 not going to sell if they market them at $150 , 000 .
2 Then what do we have? Vacant lots and an eyesore .
3 The negative aspects are it' s totally
4 incompatible with the surrounding land uses . We
5 haven' t found any way to mitigate those
6 incompatibilities . In most things -- in most
7 applications when there' s incompatibilities, you can
8 find a way to minimize it . I don' t see any way of
9 minimizing the incompatibilities in this case .
10 It increases the danger at 31 and 70 , at 29
11 and 70 , and at 392 and 31 . It imposes unreasonable
12 liabilities on to adjacent landowners . It removes
13 prime farm ground from production. It promotes
14 trespassing on to neighboring lands . It totally
15 changes the character of this community. It increases
16 traffic . It creates an unmanageable open space . They
17 couldn' t irrigate that property if they did have the
18 water. Well, I can' t say they couldn' t . It would
19 take a lot of work to make that an irrigatable
20 property. And if it' s not irrigated -- these people
21 are expecting to be able to ride their horses on
22 there . They' re going to destroy any drought-tolerant
23 grasses from riding horses on it . We either have
24 drought-tolerant grasses that you don' t use or you
25 have an irrigated property that you can ride horses
89
1 on. Which one is it going to be? We have to be one
2 way or the other.
3 And we haven' t seen any covenants yet . I
4 understand that Mr. Morrison now has a set of
5 covenants . We were promised covenants before this
6 meeting, or it was suggested by the Planning
7 Commission that we have covenants to review before
8 this meeting. We haven' t seen them.
9 We' ve been told that there will be limits on
10 how big the houses are and how big the outbuildings
11 are . Who knows what they are . But I can tell you
12 this, and I think you' re all aware of it , if the
13 covenants state that they have to limit the size of
14 their houses to a minimum size and limit the size of
15 their outbuildings, and then this becomes
16 unprofitable, those covenants are going to go out the
17 window. And they' ll write some new ones . We could
18 end up with a couple of modular houses with 10 , 000
19 square foot outbuildings on them. That would be even
20 more incompatible .
21 We ask you to vote for denial and respect
22 the wishes and concerns of the -- that number should
23 be 173 -- neighboring landowners and residents, who
24 have valid concerns for their health, safety, and
25 welfare and their way of life . And these aren' t
90
1 people -- and we've all seen petitions from people
2 that go, oh, gosh, this is just ugly, we don' t want it
3 there .
4 These people are knowledgeable about the
5 issues . They know what the code says, and they are
6 not coming in here with just off-the-wall arguments
_ 7 about why they don' t want this subdivision . They have
8 valid concerns . And there are 173 of them that have
9 spoken up. Please do not allow this incompatible use
10 to change the character of this community.
11 This application is poorly planned. It ' s
12 inconsiderate of the neighbors and the community, and
13 it' s not deserving of approval . However, we are fully
14 aware that you may feel compelled to approve this
15 application. We hope you don' t . We think we' ve shown
16 enough evidence to show that it ' s not a good
17 application, but we also know we have to be realistic .
18 In the event that you do vote to approve
19 this application, we would ask you to include some
20 development standards and conditions of approval to
21 protect us . We would ask you to pave County Road 70
22 to County Road 31 . When you access on to 31 from 70 ,
23 if a car comes over that hill when you' re getting
24 ready to move out and you punch it , you' re not going
25 anywhere . You' re sitting there in the gravel
91
1 spinning. We had a gentleman that had an accident
2 there this year doing exactly that that had to leave .
3 We wanted to have his testimony here . Those cars are
4 going 70 and 80 miles an hour. If you' re going to put
5 them on there, let' s at least pave the road so if you
6 have to take off in a hurry, you can.
7 They' ve already agreed to pave the interior
8 roadway. We would ask that you require them to
9 provide adequate irrigation water and a means of
10 delivering that water and a plan for irrigating that
11 open space in the lots .
12 Unfortunately, the 65 acres that I bought is
13 . a prime patch of thistles . It ' s been abandoned for a
14 couple of years, and I 'm having a heck of a time
15 getting rid of it . If this property is not cared for
16 and irrigated and taken care of, it will also become a
17 patch of thistle . I have spent $12 , 000 in the last
18 two years trying to kill that stuff, and it doesn' t go
19 away very easy. Let ' s not let it spread down here .
20 The only way to keep that from happening is to have an
21 adequate irrigation system and the proper plants in
22 there .
23 I' d say fence the perimeter, but that can' t
24 be done . I would ask you to try and find a way to
25 save us from getting sued when one of these kids gets
92
1 on to our property. I don' t know how you' re going to
2 do it, but I think it' s an issue that has to be
3 addressed.
4 I' d ask you to plan a buffer on the north
5 and west property lines . The Pages look right out on
6 to this thing. If you approve it , they' re stuck with
7 a couple years of construction, looking out on to a
8 mess . And it' s not very far away from their back
9 window. Please require them to plant a substantial
10 buffer there and on the north property line .
11 If you approve this, I ' d ask you to find a
12 way to indemnify the adjacent landowners from
13 liability, whether it' s additional insurance on their
14 insurance policy or somehow protect us so if they get
15 hurt on our property, they can' t turn right around and
16 sue us . Because if you approve this, they' re going to
17 be on our property. There' s no question about that .
18 It should not be on our shoulders to have to hire an
19 attorney and defend ourselves if this happens .
20 We would ask you that you create an
21 irrigation manager position within the covenants or
22 the homeowners association to take the burden off of
23 the Woods Lake Mutual Water System. They' re asking
24 you to deliver this minute amount of water
25 two-and-a-half miles or two miles from the reservoir .
93
1 Well, that' s a lot of work to put on to a ditch rider.
2 And to minimize that work, we would ask that they have
3 somebody designated to coordinate the irrigation
4 activities on the property.
5 We would like to see standardized building
6 styles with maximum and minimum sizes and styles and
7 also to limit the size of accessory buildings on the
8 property. It would be unsightly on a one-acre lot to
9 have a huge outbuilding. And you see that a lot out
10 in the country. You know, it just would not fit here .
11 Last but not least, if you don' t pave the
12 road, we need to do something to improve that
13 intersection at 31 and 70, whether it' s an
14 acceleration lane, widening the shoulders, something
15 before somebody gets killed.
16 That' s all I' ve got . If there are any
17 questions, I ' d be glad to answer them.
18 MR. VAAD: Mike, do you have a list of the
19 conditions of approval that you' re suggesting that you
20 can give to counsel?
21 MR. MILLER: I 've given a copy of this
22 entire presentation to Esther, and I believe it ' s on
23 your - -
24 MR. VAAD: Okay.
25 MR. MILLER: -- on your computer or she ' s
94
1 printed it out, I belive .
2 CLERK: The hard copy is in the file, but
3 it ' s not scanned.
4 MR. VAAD: Commissioner Geile?
5 MR. GEILE : I have a couple of questions,
6 Mike .
7 First of all , who' s Johnny Miller that has a
8 producing farm? Is he a relation of yours?
9 MR. MILLER: He' s no relation of mine .
10 Personally, I believe he was killed in a traffic
11 accident down at 72 and 29 a couple of years ago.
12 MR. GEILE: Is that farm that you were
13 talking about still a productive farm?
14 MR. MILLER: Yes, it is . That farm that I ' m
15 talking about is the actual subject property that
16 they' re developing now.
17 MR. GEILE : And I ' m really having a hard
18 time trying to pull this case out of a lot of
19 statements that you' ve made about the area . And are
20 you proposing that any and all development , recorded
21 exemptions, minor subs be in essence not allowed in
22 any of this area?
23 MR. MILLER: No, sir. That' s not what I 'm
24 saying at all . And that' s one thing that I wanted
25 to --
95
1 MR. GEILE : Well, before I - - let me finish
2 the question.
3 The reason I ask you is you' re kind of
4 intertwining productive ag land with no development ,
5 and I just am having a hard time figuring out where --
6 I 'm having a hard time separating this case from what
_ 7 seems to be some philosophical agendas . Now, I can' t
8 figure out what your philosophical agendas are, and
9 I 'm trying to relate that back to the case .
10 Maybe you can help me with that .
11 MR. MILLER: Well, my understanding of
12 goals, and, you now, we weren' t allowed in this
13 comprehensive plan and my gist or my take of it is
14 that if a farmer had the piece of property at the
15 corner of a circle or an unproductive part of his
16 farm --
17 MR. GEILE : Well , if we could just relate
18 it to this case, it would help .
19 MR. MILLER: To this case? Well, we' re
20 talking about a piece of property here that is prime .
21 I mean, it ' s as good a farm ground as you' re going do
22 find here .
23 MR. GEILE : Now, what is prime farmland?
24 MR. MILLER: Prime farm ground is land that
25 is being farmed profitably without a significant
96
1 amount of -- I mean, we went over that definition
2 about ten times, I think, but we threw the definition
3 out, I believe, in the new plan. But to me, prime
4 farmland is ground that can be farmed, has irrigation,
5 and isn' t a problem farm, as opposed to a rocky piece
6 or the corner of a sprinkler that you can' t get water
7 to or something. So to me, that ' s prime farmland.
8 MR. GEILE : So what you' re saying then is
9 that again, I 'm trying to get this back to this case,
10 that this, because of the fact that this is prime
11 farmland, it should not be developed. But the land,
12 65 acres, that you purchased with all of the thistles
13 should be developed or it should be allowed to be
14 developed?
15 MR. MILLER: Absolutely not . I have no
16 intention of developing that land. As a matter of
17 fact, I'm turning it into a refuge for wildlife .
18 MR. GEILE : Okay.
19 MR. MILLER: No. There is no double
20 standard there . I have no intention of developing my
21 land.
22 MR. GEILE : I ' m just trying to get -- what
23 I'm trying to do is to bring all of your comments that
24 you've made . And certainly there' s been a lot of
25 testimony on the water, which has been helpful, but
97
1 there have been so many philosophical statements made
2 in your presentation, I 'm trying to get it all back to
3 this case so that I can make a determination based
4 upon the facts .
5 MR. MILLER: I think that the biggest
6 philosophical difference we have is that the people
7 that live in this area value tremendously their
8 community. They share common interests . They live on
9 lots that provide them the ability to raise their
10 horses, to raise a little bit of hay for their horses,
11 or to have a roping arena . And yet while they' re
12 tightknit , they can go home to their ten or 15 acres
13 and not have somebody right next to their house .
14 This, on the other hand, is eight houses
15 right next to each other, right next to another house .
16 And that is totally just out of character for the
17 area . There are no similar subdivisions within a
18 couple of miles of this . And it' s -- it' s not a
19 precedent that the people in this area want to see .
20 You know,. when you look at 173 people that
21 signed this petition, we didn' t have one single person
22 say no, I' m in favor of this, I ' d love to see a row of
23 eight houses out here . Every single person we talked
24 to said, oh, my God, why would anybody want to put a
25 row of houses out here . We don' t have that out here .
98
1 We don' t want that out here . And that' s not, that' s
2 not my philosophy. That' s the philosophy that' s
3 shared by all of these people and the people that
4 couldn' t be here today. And they' re unwavering in
5 that philosophy.
6 And they' re very upset that this , the impact
7 this application could have, you know, benefits - -
8 people that don' t even live here . Those impacts are
9 going to be detrimental to all of us, merely for the
10 profit of a small group of people .
11 MR. VAAD: Commissioner Jerke .
12 MR. JERKE : Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13 Mike, just a couple of questions . The first
14 one, I 'm trying to get clear in my mind is something
15 you said about having enough water for you personally
16 to go ahead and irrigate X number of acres on your
17 land north of that . I heard a number, and could you
18 tell me what that number was?
19 MR. MILLER: I have a decree from the 1800s
20 on Coal Bank Creek.. It does not decree a set amount
21 of acre feet of water. It states that I can draw
22 water from my diversion out of Coal Bank Creek
23 sufficient to irrigate 1200 acres of land adjacent to
24 Coal Bank Creek.
25 MR. JERKE : That ' s what I thought I heard
99
1 you say, the 1200 acres . But I 'm assuming you don' t
2 have anywhere near 1200 acres .
3 MR. MILLER: No, I don' t . But at the time
4 that the decree was issued, that Benjamin Eaton, I
5 believe, is who owned all this land. And he did have
6 1200 acres .
7 MR. JERKE : Okay.
8 MR. MILLER: I wish I had the 1200 acres .
9 We wouldn' t be arguing over this today.
10 MR. JERKE : Yeah. That was one thing. The
11 other thing I think, Mike, Commissioner Geile touched
12 on it . And I think that you've touched on it as well .
13 If you could sum up perhaps the percentage of your
14 group' s opposition to the concept of a row of homes,
15 the cluster if you will . It seems like that' s the
16 overwhelming opposition is the fact that these are in
17 a row and they' re in a tight configuration versus
18 spread out . Is that the bulk of the opposition?
19 MR. MILLER: I 've heard over and over from
20 people that if this had been an application with five
21 or six houses on five-acre lots spread out there, they
22 probably would not have had the opposition to that
23 particular aspect of it . They still would have had
24 issues with the traffic and some of the other things .
25 But the thing that really irks them is that the
100
1 totally, you know, out of character development stuck
2 here in the middle of all these other places that are
3 on large acreages . And there are several four- and
4 five-acre parcels out there . There are no one-acre
5 parcels, and there are certainly no strings of
6 one-acre parcels with houses on them.
7 MR. VAAD: Any questions? Commissioner
8 Masden.
9 MR. MASDEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10 Yeah. Mike, something that I want to
11 pursue, get straightened out in my mind, several of
12 you, including yourself, testified that water, there
13 isn' t enough water and deliverability and this water
14 next year is going to be three-tenths of an acre foot
15 and the water to this property coming off of Coal Bank
16 Creek, that they don' t even have the right to.
17 MR. MILLER: That' s correct .
18 MR. MASDEN: And then you turn around and
19 say that it' s prime farm ground?
20 MR. MILLER: Well, up until , I believe, last
21 year, there was a lot of water available on this
22 property. Mr. Shepardson sold, I believe, 65 shares
23 of Divide Canal, 95 shares of Divide Canal, to a water
24 company for almost half a million dollars .
25 MR. MASDEN: So that water has been
101
1 removed?
2 MR. MILLER: So that would have solved this
3 whole thing. Basically, he signed a covenant that
4 says in the future he cannot use Divide Canal water on
5 this property, even if he were to buy it somewhere
6 else . He can' t put it back on his property. He dried
7 it up.
8 MR. MASDEN: So then it is then no longer
9 prime farm ground.
10 MR. MILLER: Well, yes, if you -- it' s prime
11 farm ground to me, because I have rights for it .
12 WOMAN: And us .
13 MR. VAAD: I can only take testimony from
14 Mike at this time .
15 MR. MILLER: It is prime farm ground. It
16 can be irrigated, if there was other water available
17 that could be purchased and delivered to this farm.
18 They just don' t own it .
19 MR. MASDEN: Okay. So it is, does have the
20 ability to be irrigated?
21 MR. MILLER: You bet , if water can be
22 delivered to this farm. For instance, back here -- I
23 apologize for the slow computer. Right here
24 (indicating) is Meyers Lake . If a person had rights
25 to Meyers Lake, they could deliver water right across
102
1 here into the diversion structure that we discussed
2 and take it right down on to the property. If a
3 person has rights on Coal Bank Creek, as I do, they
4 could divert water on to that property and irrigate
5 it .
6 It' s simply Divide Canal water that can' t be
7 brought back on to that property.
8 MAN: You made a mistake . You can' t bring
9 water through that diversion structure . They've got
10 to bring it through the east lateral of Woods Lake .
11 MR. MILLER: I apologize . The water from
12 Meyers Lake could not come through that diversion
13 structure . It would have to, come through the east
14 lateral and then down to it, which is still feasible .
15 MR. MASDEN: Okay. Thank you.
16 MR. VAAD: All right . If there' s no
17 further questions, Mike, thank you, Mike .
18 I have a request to ask a witness to come
19 back. Mr. Jerke?
20 MR. JERKE: Yeah. I wanted to ask a couple
21 of witnesses, potentially Mr . Page, if he' s still
22 here .
23 MR. MILLER: He had to go back to work.
24 MR. JERKE : Or Mrs . Page .
25 MS . PAGE : Yeah.
- 103
1 MR. JERKE : I had a question regarding
2 something that he actually stated, which was that
3 there were promises of water within your purchase . My
4 question I guess is was there any water deeded to you
5 in your purchase that somehow isn' t there now?
6 MS . PAGE : Yes, sir. We do have water. We
7 have ten shares of Woods Lake, and we also have ten
8 shares of the lateral to run the water.
9 What was promised to us and is witnessed by
10 at least a couple people that are here and other
11 people that are not here from Mr. Shepardson is that
12 we would be given Larimer Weld for our property as
13 well . Because as it stands now, we pay $12 , 000 an
14 acre, and I'm not proud, for seepage when we thought
15 we were actually getting the full water shares and the
16 right to run that water .
17 But we don' t have that unless Mr. Shepardson
18 would give us the water that was promised, which is
19 the Larimer Weld, in order to run that water to our
20 property.
21 It' s com -- water is complicated. I never
22 knew how complicated it is . I thought you got it and
23 you got your share, and you ran it to your property
24 and you watered your stuff . It' s not that way.
25 MR. JERKE : So this was something promised
104
1 but never in your contract or deed, the Larimer?
2 MRS . PAGE : Actually, it -- the Larimer,
3 well, no. The water was promised. The advertisement
4 was -- I 've still got records of the advertisement,
5 how he advertised the water as irrigated land. And it
6 was never delivered. And it was promised again to us
7 just this past March, and it has never shown forth.
8 MR. JERKE : Thank you.
9 MR. VAAD: Would you please state your same
10 once more for us?
11 MRS . PAGE : Yes, sir. It ' s Debra Page .
12 MR. VAAD: Thank you very much. If there
13 are no further questions, thank you.
14 MR. JERKE : I had some questions for Pat
15 McNear.
16 MR. VAAD: Okay. Mr. McNear, would you
17 state your name, please?
18 MR. MCNEAR: Pat McNear.
19 MR. VAAD: Thank you .
20 MR. JERKE : Pat, do you know if there' s a
21 way then of getting Woods Lake water physically, with
22 the shares that they've got , to the dry-up pasture
23 portion of the open space?
24 MR. MCNEAR: Yes, there is . How does this
25 thing work? This - - this (indicating) is, here is
105
1 Woods Lake . The lateral that delivers water, I
2 believe it' s the east lateral, is currently being
3 pumped because the lake level is so low right now it
4 won' t gravity flow. And they had to buy a pump and
5 pumping equipment in order to deliver water in the
6 late season here, which Mr. Shepardson owns no late
7 season rights to, nor does this Cattail Creek, because
8 they sold those water rights .
9 Let me clarify one thing that I think will
10 help the Board. Larimer Weld irrigation water is
11 ownership in direct flow water rights . You all
12 understand that term. It' s commonly referred to as
13 early water. It ' s . water that is picked up out of the
14 river when downstream users have not filed on that,
15 and it ' s put to use . When that decree is terminated
16 by calls on the river, that particular water is no
17 longer usable in the system.
18 That water has to pass through this
19 reservoir system. It cannot be stored in it . So the
20 only water that is available to this farm through the
21 ownership is a small amount of seepage water that is
22 collected and gathered in Woods Lake Mutual . The
23 river water or direct flow water and the ownership of
24 those rights, without them you cannot run that water
25 because the ditch system won' t deliver it if you don' t
106
1 own shares in it .
2 So without - - okay. When you run your river
3 water through the system and bring it to these
4 parcels, typically that season ends somewhere in mid
5 June . There' s been years where you don' t have any.
6 For example, this year I think we had a half a day, if
7 you want to call that delivery. There have been other
8 years that you get some in May and then it ' s over.
9 And there' s been years that it' s run clear into July,
10 so it ' s not a dependable source .
11 So basically this parcel could look at
12 delivery through the early season, say up until June .
13 At that point, which you asked about the structure,
14 they could bring it down the structures that this rest
15 of the farm uses to a point where he tore up the ditch
16 and eliminated that, so they would have to construct
17 some infrastructure to bring it from that point to
18 this property.
19 MR. JERKE : That' s really what I wanted to
20 find out, if it' s possible for them to still - -
21 MR. MCNEAR : But they could not -- the
22 reservoir water would be limited.
23 I would also like to state for your
24 information that the half a share, there' s a volume
25 problem there . By only owning a half a share, that' s
107
1 this much water where, or basically 150 gallon per
2 minute, if you can visualize that, versus 800 gallon
3 per minute say that a right delivers . There' s no
4 feasible, not an efficient way to deliver that water
5 to this parcel . It would be like changing five tubes
6 out there all summer long to get across it . Whereas
7 if a farm controls this, they own stock large enough
8 that they can deliver the volume to this parcel, get
9 across it in two or three days and move on.
10 MR. JERKE : Thank you.
11 MR. VAAD: Thank you.
12 All right . Is there anyone else in the
13 audience who hasn' t had the opportunity to address the
14 Board? And if you wanted to just lend your support to
15 something that' s been said before, we' d appreciate it
16 if you limit your comment to that . If you have
17 something in addition you' d like to offer, we invite
18 you to do so now.
19 Let the record show that there' s no request
20 for additional comments .
21 Would the applicant or the applicant' s
22 representative please step back to the microphone?
23 I ' ll give you the opportunity to address the comments
24 from the public .
25 Please state your name again for the record.
108
1 MS . JOHNSON: Anne Best Johnson with Todd
2 Hodges Design.
3 The applicant will pave the internal road to
4 lots one through eight . The intent is that the
5 homeowners association will maintain for one year.
6 After the one-year warranty period, the County will
7 take over maintenance .
8 The applicant will improve Weld County Road
9 70 as indicated. The applicant is preserving a large
10 agricultural portion under center pivot irrigation.
11 Every attempt has been made to preserve the most
12 productive portion of agricultural land on this
13 property.
14 The applicant is providing an upgraded water
15 line to the area that other individuals may tap into.
16 The applicant is providing two hydrants for fire
17 protection for the area . Coal Bank Creek is not on
18 the applicant' s property. Covenants are under review
19 by Mr. Morrison.
20 There are three components to the
21 subdivision: The first is the agricultural lot that
22 consists of a building envelope of five acres and a
23 center pivot ; the second component is the eight
24 one-acre lots with the internal road; and the third
25 component is the common open space .
109
1 Now a lot of discussion has been made on the
2 irrigation of the common open space and what that open
3 space will be used for. If the homeowners association
4 wants to hay that field, do something with that common
5 open space, they may. There' s water that is still
6 associated with that . The water is tied to the common
7 open space, as is stated in the application materials .
8 Do you have any specific questions for me or
9 the applicant at this time that I can answer?
10 MR. VAAD : Mr. Jerke .
11 MR. JERKE : Yeah. What water would still
12 be on the farm that is owned today that would be used
13 to run the center pivot sprinkler?
14 MS . JOHNSON: Thank you. I am going to ask
15 the applicant to come up and address the water issue .
16 MR. DuBARD : George DuBard.
17 The water that' s currently on the farm, this
18 is all going to be historical, based on historically
19 how the water has been used in the past, the center
20 pivot . The reason the storage water was sold off is
21 because we no longer required to have that much water
22 wasting and going off into who knows where . The
23 sprinkler itself is a much more efficient way to
24 irrigate .
25 All the water rights that were with this
110
1 land to begin with remain with it . The only thing
2 that ' s being diverted to the homeowners association is
3 just the 20 shares, along with the backup Larimer Weld
4 for half a share . And it ' s my understanding - - I 'm
5 not a water attorney or anything, but apparently years
6 ago when they started Woods Lake, they brought in one
7 share per 40 shares of Woods Lake . And that' s how
8 they figured on keeping that water going into that
9 system.
10 So looking back in the records , we've got
11 three-and-three-quarters shares of Larimer Weld that
12 go with the whole area . And we' re going to deed half
13 a share, which goes with the 20 shares of Woods Lake,
14 down to this other area . But historically, nothing is
15 going to change .
16 MR. VAAD: Continue .
17 MR. JERKE : Can you recite for me
18 specifically what shares of what systems will remain
19 with the farm?
20 MR. DuBARD : No, sir. I don' t know how many
21 shares of Woods Lake there are up there, but I do know
22 that there' s three -- well, there will be one
23 three-and-a-half, three-and-one-quarter shares of
24 Larimer Weld going to the center pivot . They' ll get
25 the same amount of water that they' ve had the last ten
111
1 years, based on availability of course .
2 MR. JERKE : And do you concur with Pat
3 McNear on that, that that is largely availability,
4 water that is largely available early in the season?
5 MR. DuBARD: As far as the water that comes
6 off the Larimer Weld, yes .
7 MR. JERKE : And the Woods Lake water that
8 apparently your farm has the right to, and it ' s
9 accurate that that would be just seepage water that
10 more or less would average an acre foot or so per
11 year?
12 MR. DuBARD: Larimer Weld typically is used
13 just to cap off that lake, that storage lake, Woods
14 Lake . There' s -- to the best of my knowledge, there' s
15 a system that gets it down to Meyers Lake . Meyers
16 Lake is landlocked, so when it starts to overflow, it
17 goes down that other line . So, I mean, it' s a very
18 complicated, you know, one feeds the other, feeds the
19 other. And we also have shares of the east lateral ,
20 too, that we can use to deliver water to this 30-acre
21 open space .
22 MR. JERKE : But to be clear, that would not
23 be another source of water. That' s merely a delivery
24 system.
25 MR. DuBARD: No. That' s an ability and a
112
1 legal right to use that to get the water there .
2 MR. JERKE : Thank you.
3 MR. VAAD: Commissioner Geile .
4 MR. GEILE : Based upon the discussion that
5 you've had with Commissioner Jerke, my question is how
6 would you represent the open space, well , the whole
7 thing, how will you represent to the potential buyers?
8 MR. DuBARD: We've agreed to put - - I mean,
9 we would like to put the right to --
10 MR. GEILE : I mean, how are you going to
11 represent it, how are you going to, what are you going
12 to tell people they' re getting?
13 MR. DuBARD : We' re going to show them that
14 it' s open space . That' s our --
15 MR. GEILE : Okay. But how are you going to
16 represent the open space?
17 MR. DuBARD: We' re already going to have it
18 planted in native grasses, so it ' s going to be native
19 grasses . The homeowners association will be
20 responsible, ultimately responsible for maintaining it
21 and taking care of it in the future . But they won' t
22 take over until - - I can' t remember what the covenants
23 say. Mr. Morrison could probably help us with that ,
24 but I mean, there' s a point where they have the right ,
25 if they want to take and build a little arena up at
113
1 the top of the land, they' re entitled to do that .
2 But my intention, and the way we' re going to
3 represent it, is that this is supposed to be open
4 space . It' s supposed to be kept green. It' s supposed
5 to look pretty, and that' s the way it is . And that' s
6 how it will be represented.
7 MR. GEILE : Thank you.
8 MR. VAAD: Mr. DuBard, Miss Johnson
9 represented that you would be providing some sort of
10 facility to get the untreated water to the open space?
11 MR. DuBARD: Yes, sir.
12 MR. VAAD: Would you expand on that a
13 little?
14 MR. DuBARD : Our intention right now is that
15 there' s very little water going down the east lateral ,
16 and we do have shares that we can run 20 shares of
17 Woods Lake down the east lateral , hooking on coming
18 down into the concrete ditch and dumping into the
19 concrete ditch. And according to the covenants,
20 there' s ten feet of easement in between each lot that
21 allows for that water to go through, with one
22 homeowner being responsible for each ditch.
23 I believe that there' s a ditch on the south
24 of each home, so that the person that lives with the
25 ditch just to their south is responsible for
114
1 maintaining that ditch to get the water into the open
2 space . There will be culverts going underneath the
3 road at each of those places .
4 MR. VAAD : Thank you. Are there any
5 further questions? Thank you.
6 If there are no further questions of staff,
7 or maybe there are . Commissioner Long?
8 MR. LONG: Thank you .
9 Peter, in the traffic study regarding this
10 development, what would the additional be on Road 70
11 and what would the percentage be that might add on to
12 that on 31 or 29?
13 MR. SHELTING: Drew Shelting of Public
14 Works, if you don' t mind me trying to answer that
15 question. Peter and I prepared this case together,
16 but I did have most all of the discussions regarding
17 traffic with Matt Delich, the applicant ' s traffic
18 engineer, and probably it would be more fair for me to
19 try to answer that question than Peter .
20 Do you have the traffic counts handy here?
21 The existing traffic on Road 70 between 29
22 and 31 is approximately 89 vehicles a day, something
23 under 100 . The nine sites would generate something
24 less than 90 cars a day, so we would be somewhere in
25 the area of 180 to 200 cars, somewhere in that range .
115
1 And that is what we would anticipate .
2 We' d anticipate the majority of the cars, 60
3 percent, would more than likely go east to the paved
4 road to Weld County Road 31 and then disburse north
5 and south, probably most of them going south towards
6 the Greeley area.
7 MR. VAAD : Any other questions?
8 Thank you, Drew.
9 Counsel, would you address the issue that
10 was brought up about liability to the surrounding
11 property owners when they' re trespassed upon
12 allegedly from residents of this application?
13 MR. MORRISON: Well , any comments apply to
14 anyone who trespasses, not just from this development .
15 The -- for persons over the age of 14 , basically
16 someone creates a hazardous condition on a property,
17 knowing that it represents a danger, has some
18 liability. I think Mr. Miller is correct that there' s
19 additional uncertainty interjected by the concept of
20 the attractive nuisance . So for children under the
21 age of 14 , those limitations on liability for
22 trespassers are tampered by that concept . The concept
23 though requires that the thing identified as an
24 attractive nuisance be the thing that brings someone
25 on the property, not that they get on the property and
116
1 get in trouble . But that that ' s why they came on the
2 property and then were injured.
3 The other part of that is it can be dealt
4 with by efforts, you know, factors as to what efforts
5 are made to keep someone out of that area, if it is in
6 fact an attractive nuisance . And you need to take
7 reasonable steps . You don' t have to take all possible
8 steps .
9 There was one part of Mr. Miller' s comments
10 where he said insurance wasn' t going to protect
11 people. Well, in fact, that' s what the insurance is
12 for, so I think that I'm not aware that coverage is
. 13 waived simply because a party comes on the property
14 and is affected by it .
15 I guess the bottom line is if there' s a way
16 to provide reasonable efforts to limit access to the
17 area, that that provides a defense to that . Insurance
18 is a means of dealing with that . I don' t think you
19 have within your power, however, to shift the
20 liability from one party to another. That ' s just
21 not -- you have broad powers but not that broad.
22 And lastly, it made more - - when there' s a
23 single user, such as a landfill, it may be practical
24 to require provisions in the insurance or they may
25 offer indemnification. It isn' t very practical when
117
1 you' re dealing with multiple homeowners and not, you
2 know, there' s not a single responsible party for the
3 entire development . There' s going to be individual
4 lot owners . So something along that line is pretty
5 difficult to come up with that would be effective, as
6 opposed to a single industrial user who would be
7 responsible and could, you know, step up and provide
8 certain kinds of guarantees .
9 MR. VAAD: Thank you.
10 For, I think, Public Works, but if one of
11 the other staff members would know about the
12 construction of structures within the floodplain as
13 opposed to within the floodway. There were comments
14 or assertions that nothing could be built in the
15 floodplain. And I ' ve not heard that before, and I
16 wondered if there' s, if there' s a difference, if that
17 is true or isn' t and is there a confusion between
18 floodway and floodplain.
19 MS . LOCKMAN: Sherri Lockman, Department of
20 Planning Services . You can build buildings within
21 the floodplain, which is what is on this property.
22 MR. VAAD: I' m talking about building
23 necessarily fences .
24 MS . LOCKMAN: Fencing could be a issue , too,
25 because it cannot obstruct the flow. We did discuss
118
1 putting -- it would have to be up so far it would be
2 able to be floodproofed, which means basically water
3 can flow freely. So it kind of takes the use of the
4 fence, it would be even questionable whether it' s
5 worthwhile . It would need a flood hazard permit, the
6 same way a building would. We found it to be a very
7 difficult thing to achieve .
8 MR. VAAD: Okay. Thank you.
9 Well, I think the next issue then is a
10 response from the Board. The request for additional
11 conditions of approval, I have not been able to find
12 those or manipulate my machine to find the reference .
13 And I'm referring, to the ones that Mr. Miller
14 suggested should be .
15 MR. MILLER: Would you like me to put them
16 back up?
17 MR. MORRISON: Yeah. If you could put the
18 slide up, I can pass you the hard copy of those slides
19 as well, Mr. Chairman. But I think he' ll put those up
20 on the screen.
21 MR. VAAD : Well , and I only asked with the
22 potential if any of the Board members would like to
23 make adjustments or suggest by, via a motion to
24 propose additional conditions be approved. Is there
25 any?
119
1 MR. MILLER: There are two or three slides
2 of these .
3 MR. VAAD: Commissioner Jerke .
4 MR. JERKE : I just sped read those, and most
5 of them seem to be, or some of them seem to be, out of
6 our purview or have enormous fiscal costs . So I would
7 personally not be in favor of the majority of the
8 things that are being offered up on that list . It
9 would take a lot of work to do .
10 MR. VAAD: If there' s no other -- is
11 there -- okay. That takes care of my question. Thank
12 you.
13 Well, for the benefit of the Board, let me
14 engage counsel in further dialogue then. There have
15 been a myriad, and I think that ' s an appropriate term,
16 of issues brought up as to why we should consider that
17 this is not an application that would be successful .
18 One of those was that it might not be economically
19 successful . Can we or how -- well, I guess first, can
20 we use that in our consideration; if so, how; and if
21 that ' s not a consideration, and you did mention we had
22 broad powers -- .
23 MR. MORRISON: I should never have said
24 that .
25 MR. VAAD: What can we do?
120
1 MR. MORRISON: I don' t -- I think that the
2 issue of what was paid for the property or what the
3 market might be is really not reflected in the Code .
4 That' s not one of the criteria for changes of the PUD,
5 and I -- there may be a creative way that this factors
6 into an argument about incompatibility or something,
_ 7 but I ' m not , I haven' t heard that , that it would make
8 it' s way in. So really it isn' t an issue , and in
9 fact some of the recent discussions of the changes in
10 comprehensive plan kind of took some of that , you
11 know, the highest and best use language out . And that
12 might have related, but I 'm not aware that it really
13 is, at least directly, the correct basis of a
14 decision.
15 MR. VAAD : Let me go a step further then,
16 again for the benefit of considerations the Board may
17 want to make . Going to our obligation to the
18 protection or preservation of health, safety, and
19 welfare of the citizens of the County and has been, as
20 has been described or suggested of what a failed
21 subdivision or land use might look like and how that
22 would impact surrounding neighborhoods , or neighbors,
23 that' s where the point I was getting to. And then
24 talking about a failed subdivision probably would have
25 vacant lots which could be untended and could be
121
1 noxious weed location or whatever.
2 MR. MORRISON: Well, that may be -- that --
3 I mean, I think that you could make that argument if
4 you think that that' s really tied to that part of --
5 I mean, part of the process is I 'm not sure what you
6 mean by failed, because unsold lots or that that
7 project never gets off the ground. The County process
8 with this and then the final plan decision and then
9 the agreements for utilities and roads and other basic
10 improvements, they will, the developer will be, need
11 to be able to step up and show collateral for those
12 parts of the project that are necessary to serve the
13 lots . So that the rest of the process should protect
14 against it .
15 I don' t -- I can' t say that the process
16 protects against lots being listed and not sold, but
17 you' re not going to have a lot created that doesn' t
18 have the services that would allow it to be used as a
19 residence . And if the concern is the quality of the
20 individual develop,. of the individual residences,
21 right now they' re tied to the estate zone standards
22 and I -- Sherri might be able to go over what those,
23 if there are any size issues, minimum lot , residence
24 size and things like that that might impact that
25 decision.
122
1 MR. VAAD: Sherri, would you rehearse some
2 of those, just the significant ones .
3 MS . LOCKMAN: Sure . Bulk requirements . In
4 the estate zone, one of the most prevalent, because it
5 was brought up in the argument and they were
6 questioning it by the applicant , is the size of
7 accessory structures . They are -- they have to follow
8 the four percent rule . And basically it' s kind of
9 complicated. The combined rules for area of all
10 accessory buildings constructed after the original
11 effects .
12 Okay. (Inaudible) Subjects with ten acres
13 shall not exceed four percent of the total lot area .
14 However, in no case shall such accessory building
15 exceed twice the gross floor area of the primary
16 residence . So they' re pretty limited in that .
17 Maximum square footage of a single family
18 dwelling, 1, 200 square feet . I 'm sorry. That' s
19 minimum. Maximum -- they' re family units . They' re
20 already limited to the one per lot because of the
21 size . Maximum building height , 40 feet . Off-sets for
22 residential adjacent to an ag zone, 40 feet . But that
23 shouldn' t matter because of all the open space . I
24 don' t think any of the others really are all that
25 relevant .
123
1 MR. VAAD: And the four percent rule on a
2 one-acre lot, is that roughly 1700 square feet?
3 MS . LOCKMAN: I haven' t figured it out . I
4 don' t have a calculator. My computer died.
5 MR. VAAD : Okay. Thank you. Further
6 discussion?
7 MR. GEILE: 1, 742 .
8 MS . LOCKMAN: Thank you.
9 MR. VAAD : Commissioner Jerke?
10 MR. JERKE : As a process, I just didn' t
11 know whether has applicant been asked or did they
12 whether they approve of the standards?
13 MR. VAAD: Oh, okay. Not yet . I think we
14 were getting close to several questions, but we
15 weren' t going to additional ones, other than the one
16 that had been requested from staff . And I don' t know
17 whether that was a condition of approval or where you
18 wanted to put that the final plan would be
19 administratively approved.
20 MS . LOCKMAN: Just put it in your motion and
21 just let us know.
22 MR. VAAD: All right . So are there any
23 desires to add any conditions of approval or develop
24 the standards that differ?
25 All right . Would the applicant or the
124
1 representative of applicant please step forward one
2 more time?
3 Would you state your name, please?
4 MR. DuBARD: George DuBard.
5 MR. VAAD: Thanks, George .
6 We've got the conditions of approval , and I
7 don' t believe they' re in the developmental stage at
8 this point , that are recommended by staff . Have you
9 read those, understand them, and do you agree with
10 them?
11 MR. DuBARD: Yes, sir. I have .
12 MR. VAAD: Thank you very much.
13 Do you have further comment or -- that' s all
14 we needed. Thank you very much.
15 Further discussion or further word?
16 MR. GEILE : I have some comments .
17 We' d started out -- first of all, getting
18 back to, you know, the question I guess I started when
19 I was looking at the general (inaudible) . I don' t
20 want to get into the business of starting evaluating
21 someone' s corporate structure or financial structure
22 to be able to produce, especially when what we see
23 here could very well tie into some tax, tax situations
24 if it' s included within their corporate structure .
25 So all I ' m saying is that I think the
125
1 question was asked of the applicant in view of all
2 this, can you produce this product . And the answer in
3 essence was yes .
4 And moving on from that, there' s some things
5 that really concern me . And first of all , you know,
6 we' re dealing with a private property rights issue .
7 And I was thinking as we were going through this case,
8 and the reason why I asked the representative from
9 the, Mr. Miller, as to what the intents were, because
10 there' s 170 some people. I would assume most them
11 have at least five acres and some of them farm
12 relatively large acreage . And I wanted to make sure
13 in my own mind that they realize that they could very
14 well be before this body somewhere down the road
15 wanting to develop their property.
16 And when we' re taking a look at cases, you
17 know, I understand the presentation. The question in
18 my mind is does it - - you know, private property
19 rights, but does it impact the rights of others . And
20 that' s in essence where I was more or less resting
21 most of my deliberations as we proceeded going along.
22 Some issues I had, and it had to do first of all with
23 some presentations of properties in the past by one of
24 the major shareholders or stockholder or one of the
25 major parties in a limited liability company. And I
126
1 think that related to was there water available,
2 wasn' t there water available, the thing will always be
3 farmed. But there were some representations, probably
4 on behalf of one of the presenters, but also on a
5 couple of others, as far as representation, from one
6 of the principals in the LLC.
7 But when we begin to talk about water, and I
8 really appreciate the amount of work that was done on
9 some of these presentations, but diversion boxes,
10 illegal diversion boxes, points of diversion, dry-up
11 covenants, issues in delivering versus is there even
12 water to deliver. And I think Commissioner Jerke
13 asked some very pointed questions to get to the basis
14 of that . And then I brought that over to the
15 representation of the property. If this were to move
16 ahead that there could be representation on this
17 property that this open space is going to be very
18 prime agriculture-type of land, which means it' s going
19 to have plenty of water. And in fact, I 'm convinced
20 in my own mind that it does not .
21 The other area, as I said, was some of the
22 representation issues but also the cluster zoning
23 issues . I was, you know, wondering as I was going
24 back looking at the ordinances why this wasn' t a
25 cluster zoning case . And I still don' t know why it' s
127
1 not a cluster zoning case . If it was a cluster zoning
2 case, and as Mr. Jerke brought up, they are willing to
3 put the other 40 acres into a 40-year conservation
4 easement I think is the terminology we use, why they
5 wouldn' t have proceeded that way.
6 On the other hand, I 'm not sure it would
7 have changed anything as it relates to the
8 availability of the water to be able to do the issues
9 associated with the open space .
10 So I have some real concerns, Mr. Chairman.
11 Those are the main ones, but I also have some things I
12 wanted to go back into 27-2-60 to also kind of bring
13 some of my thoughts together.
14 MR. VAAD: Further discussion?
15 Commissioner Jerke?
16 MR. JERKE : Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17 I , too, have concerns about the proposal . I
18 think that probably when you talk about real estate,
19 you talk about location, location, location. And this
20 to me is compatibility, compatibility, compatibility,
21 whether or not it makes sense to go ahead and do
22 something that' s clustered quite the way this appears
23 to be .
24 And then, obviously, too, there' s the
25 remaining lands that are involved on 160 acres . About
128
1 all I'm clear about is how eight acres is to be
2 treated and then about 150, 52 acres, I'm not sure how
3 that' s going to be treated down the road with the
4 proposal with the seeming inavailability of water at
5 the right times for agricultural purposes .
6 There' s sketchy plans somewhat for open
7 space . I have concerns about the fact that we've got
8 this row -- I don' t know about calling it row houses .
9 That conjures up the Georgetown style that you see in
10 other parts of the country. But in as much as
11 one-acre sites can be a row, it would appear the same
12 way.
13 Many of the other problems that have, been
14 brought up by neighbors, frankly, I 'm discounting
15 somewhat . Some of the-sky-is-falling stuff I haven' t
16 really bought into at this point, simply because we
17 hear that on every case . Land use changes, obviously,
18 always can be difficult for people who are neighbors
19 that will face some changes in their lives
20 potentially, but I don' t find particularly that the
21 traffic patterns or traffic danger would be
22 significantly changed from this . This , obviously,
23 increases it, but I don' t see that as being
24 significant .
25 Obviously, there are attractive nuisances
129
1 that you always see everywhere . They' re simply out
2 there existing everywhere . And children that are not
3 minded will simply go ahead and do things that they
4 shouldn' t do . And thank heavens most of us survived
5 childhood to make it this far.
6 But having said those things, I still have
7 major problems with compatibility. That is really
8 what it seems to break down to for me . I ' ll let it go
9 at that .
10 MR. VAAD : Commissioner Long?
11 MR. LONG: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12 I've got, from the start of the initial
13 presentation I've had problems with compatibility as a
14 concern. But also, too, I don' t think there' s any
15 great impacts as far as traffic increases or anything,
16 but I think there might be at some point an undue
17 burden upon the County and the rest of the taxpayers
18 because I hear that there' s going to be a mitigation
19 program for a year on Road 70 . And then that burden
20 would fall back onto the County. And I ' m not sure
21 that the problem would be alleviated, just be
22 continued and borne by the County.
23 And -- well, just get back to compatibility
24 issues and harmony with existing uses and planned uses
25 of which I heard some testimony about, caused me some
130
1 concern.
2 MR. VAAD: Commissioner Masden?
3 MR. MASDEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 Yes . Looking at this case, there are some
5 concerns and some issues that , with the compatibility
6 and the people who would be living there, you know,
7 would have to be taking responsibility upon themselves
8 to ensure or make sure that things are done right and
9 covenants are adhered to .
10 The water, some of the issues there, but the
11 land use issues also with this piece of property is in
12 what Commissioner Geile had alluded to earlier about
13 somebody possibly would be before us for a land use
14 case in the future, something of this nature .
15 So I had some concerns about the property
— 16 rights and land use issues there .
17 MR. VAAD: Thank you.
18 Well, I ' ll take the prerogative of the Chair
19 and offer my incites on this . I was looking at the
20 map that the applicant has provided that they got from
— 21 Weld County, so roughly 28 square miles . I used the
22 pi r squared formula. You said there was a three-mile
23 radius, I believe . And what looks similar, and it ' s
24 clearly marked, this map that we have is clearly
25 marked partials less than five acres within that
131
1 three-mile radius . And there' s a good number. Some
2 of these look like significant, if I'm understanding
3 what I 'm looking at, subdivisions in the area.
4 It does seem like discounting the dense
5 clusters of developments on the map, it does seem like
6 the five-acre sites would speak to the compatibility
7 issue . In fact, we heard from opponents or
8 representatives of the opponents that that was less of
9 a problem, to use my words, to them had that been
10 proposed.
11 I 'm also very concerned about private
12 property rights, but I've learned over two years'
13 experience on the Planning Commission and four years
14 almost on the Board of County Commissioners that you
15 don' t have absolute private property rights to develop
16 your property exactly as you want without regards to
17 neighbors and other issues .
18 In my opinion, this does center a good deal,
19 if not so much on the compatibility issue, the water
20 issues, and the practicality of getting water to areas
21 where they would propose to use it . So I think that
22 kind of expresses where I am.
23 All right . If there' s no further
24 discussion, is there a motion? Commissioner Long?
25 MR. LONG: Sure . I would like to make a
132
1 motion to deny the change of zoning No. 613 from A,
2 Agricultural , zone district to a PUD, Planned Unit
3 Development, zone district for eight lots with the
4 estate zone uses and for one lot with agricultural
5 zone uses, along with 30 . 13 acres of open space .
6 And citing, if I can.
7 MR. VAAD: Please .
8 MR. LONG: The compatibility issue of
— 9 Section 27-2-70 out of the Planned Unit Performance
10 Standards .
11 MR. VAAD : Thank you.
12 MR. GEILE : Mr. Chairman, I would second
13 that .
14 In addition to 22-2-70 I would like to add
15 some others that I have some concerns about, and that
16 is 27-2-30 , which deals with adequate buffer and
17 screen to make their appearance and operation in
18 conformance with the surrounding areas .
19 And then 27-2-35 , a clustered zoning area
20 used as a protection zone between two land uses of
21 different intensity and compatibility of buffer zone
22 or buffer areas also referred to as a transition zone .
23 I think there are a couple of issues associated with
24 that .
25 And then the conservation area, I feel that
133
1 that ' s 22-2-74 , where there could be some issues
2 with -- I think there' s testimony presented in,
3 especially as it relates to the creek involved, but
4 also the wastewater as it flows towards that creek.
5 That there could be some conversation issues
6 associated with 27-2-74 . And we would be back
7 sometime hearing, hearing testimony as it relates to
8 those . I just have a feeling. Anyway, this is
9 really a concern to me, so I would like to add that ,
10 Commissioner Long.
11 MR. VAAD: Let the record show that
12 Commissioner Long concurs with the additional
13 references for reasons for denying.
14 Further discussion?
15 If there' s no further discussion, all in
16 favor of the motion to deny signify by saying aye .
17 (Response . )
18 MR. VAAD: Opposed, same sign.
19 Let the record shows that that passed
20 unanimously.
21 That concludes the business for the day of
22 the Board of County Commissioners . We are adjourned.
23 (The proceedings were adjourned at 2 :45
24 p.m. )
25
134
1 CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF COLORADO
) ss .
3 CITY AND COUNTY OF DENVER )
4 I , Jane L . Escobar, Notary Public in and for the
5 State of Colorado, duly appointed to take the above
6 proceedings, do hereby certify that said proceedings
7 were stenographically reported by me at the time and
8 place heretofore set forth, and were reduced to
9 typewritten form under my supervision, as per the
10 foregoing;
11 That the foregoing is a true and correct
12 transcript of my shorthand notes then and there taken;
13 That I am not of kin or in anyway associated
14 with any of the parties to said cause of action or
15 their counsel, and that I am not interested in the
16 event thereof .
17 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have affixed my signature
18 this /-.541\ day of October 2002 .
19 My commission expires October 9, 2005 .
20
21
WI GEORGE COURT REPORTERS
22 .,)Jane L. Escobar
Registered Professional Reporter
23 and Notary Public
a
24
JANE L. ESCOBAR
25 Notary Public;
State of Colorado
�� 9/�My Ccmmissior Expires
CATTAIL CREEK PUD HEARING
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accidents 60:16 55:3,13,17,23 58:12 132:2,4 apiece 87:25 appropriated 81:16
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accumulates 80:9 109:15 115:9 126:18 111:8 38:8,21 39:8 90:13
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aspect 99:23 balance 38:2 black 13:20 buildings 93:7 117:20 cattle 41:23 43:23
aspects 87:11 88:3 Baldridge 75:14 blame 38:25 122:10 caught 82:18
assertions 117:14 Band-aid 64:18 Board 1:5 3:3 4:20 built 11:10 15:12 cause 134:14
associated 33:22 51:18 bank 7:6 51:4 53:6 6:19 7:18 11:22 13:5 42:18 45:3,7 53:25 caused 74:16 129:25
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formulating 13:19 78:5,11,14 79:1,4 50:13 52:22,24,24 121:7 heard 86:8 98:17,25
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found 9:21 17:20 18:4 132:12 84:10 86:4 88:1,22 48:19,22 69:5,18 39:24 40:16,16 57:10
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CATTAIL CREEK PUD HEARING
Page 7
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CATTAIL CREEK PUD HEARING
.- Page 8
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CATTAIL CREEK PUD HEARING
Page 9
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49:22 93:18 94:6 86:10 negative 88:3 obligation 120:17 36:12,15 39:22,25
98:13 99:11 100:10 morning 3:2 4:11,12 neighborhood 6:11 obstacles 54:8 40:3,8 45:23 50:18
CATTAIL CREEK PUD HEARING
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51:19,24 52:1,23 owning 106:25 14:1,14,14 29:23 38:16 41:12 97:21 plat 25:2 26:22 27:5
59:20 61:18 62:8,15 owns 65:13 80:10,14 57:9 90:21 91:5,7 petitions 90:1 29:3 33:3 46:9
— 62:17,25 63:4 64:15 83:1,4 105:6 93:11 108:3 phase 5:18 22:16 plats 24:16 32:22
65:6 88:16 91:11 paved 6:22 9:19 11:25 philosophical 95:7,8 playgrounds 52:9
104:23 108:25 109:2 P 12:4,12 13:11,17 97:1,6 please 3:4,18 23:14
109:2,5,7 111:21 P 3:1 14:9 26:6 115:3 philosophy 98:2,2,5 25:9 35:1 37:16
— 112:6,14,16 113:3,10 package 47:10 73:5 pavement 56:10 photographer 58:8 42:12 47:16 57:15,23
114:1 122:23 126:17 page 2:2,9,10 10:2,25 paving 9:21 10:15 phrase 52:11 58:12 62:1 71:1 83:9
127:9 128:6 132:5 12:9 20:18 42:6,7,10 11:22 12:19 13:1 physically 104:21 84:25 90:9 92:9
—
operated 22:17 42:13,13,16 47:2,4 14:2,17 15:8,13 pi 130:22 104:9,17 107:22,25
Operating 24:17,24 47:10,14 48:18,23 55:24 pick 71:13,15 124:1,3 132:7
29:19 49:6,10,17,19,22,22 pay 86:7 103:13 picked 28:10 105:13 plenty 126:19
operation 132:17 102:21,24,25 103:6 paying 79:10 picture 41:7 45:1 82:6 plus 39:14 40:22 49:17
— operators 30:20 104:2,11,11 people 37:21,24 38:1,2 pictures 51:9 54:11 point 6:5 17:25 31:13
opinion 131:18 Pages 92:5 38:16 41:16,21 44:13 59:2 31:23 68:23 72:6
opponents 131:7,8 paid 79:9 87:22 120:2 50:14,21,22 51:25 piece 40:13 43:7 87:14 106:13,15,17 112:24
opportunity 107:13,23 Pam 2:5 17:6 52:7 54:4 57:7 60:14 95:14,20 96:5 130:11 120:23 124:8 128:16
—
opposed 96:5 117:6,13 paper 87:15 61:16 62:22 77:22 Pine 77:10 129:16
133:18 papers 45:14 80:18 87:7 88:20 pink 31:24,25 pointed 126:13
opposition 37:22 99:14 paragraph 77:17 78:6 90:1,1,4 97:6,19,20 pipeline 68:24 72:15 points 22:14 69:8
— 99:16,18,22 parcel 27:19 32:19 98:3,3,8,10 99:20 80:24 126:10
optimally 18:1 68:14 69:10,11 72:5 103:10,11 112:12 pit 81:12,12 policy 13:4,7,10 17:13
options 36:8 106:11 107:5,8 116:11 125:10 pits 15:11 45:16 92:14
order 79:22 103:19 parcels 24:8 32:5,9,11 128:18 130:6 pivot 25:14,16 32:19 pond 54:24 61:2,5,12
— 105:5 32:23 41:18,20 74:25 perc 17:16,17,19,21 68:4,16 71:25 72:21 81:25
ordinances 126:24 76:2,5 78:23 100:4,5 18:16,19,22 19:11 108:10,23 109:13,20 ponds 82:3
ordinarily 11:23 100:6 106:4 percent 15:23 16:2 110:24 poorly 90:11
— organization 33:14,24 parked 29:10 19:3 35:6,7 37:25 place 7:2 54:18,25 popular 58:3
34:7,13,17 part 4:3 13:12 38:13 55:6 85:7,12 115:3 59:16 62:19,21 77:1 portion 5:8 18:25
organizational 34:23 38:16 43:16,19 44:15 122:8,13 123:1 77:25 82:9,21 134:8 25:22,24 27:7 28:22
35:4 44:17 81:14,15 82:3 percentage 99:13 placed 24:16 32:21 73:3 104:23 108:10
— orginates 70:15 80:7 95:15 116:3,9 121:4 114:11 52:25 74:17 108:12
original 122:10 121:5 percolation 30:4 placement 51:19 portions 32:24
ought 25:8 partials 130:25 perfectly 52:16 places 39:21 44:21 pose 24:20
outbuilding 93:9 participate 38:17 perform 34:14 62:19 69:9 70:13 position 53:1 92:21
— outbuildings 59:15 particular 24:5 45:23 performance 10:18 100:2 114:3 positive 87:11
89:10,15,19 99:23 105:16 132:9 plan 5:18 7:7,18,19,22 possibility 12:6 54:2
outcome 24:19 particularly 128:20 perimeter 91:23 17:17 20:21 21:4,15 possible 29:6 106:20
— outlined 32:4 parties 34:13 69:17 period 11:14 79:24 22:21 23:4 28:9 116:7
outside 18:11 28:6 125:25 134:14 108:6 30:11 31:7 32:21 possibly 130:13
84:7 partner 23:19 33:8 permanent 11:6 40:9,25 46:5,20 post 60:24 86:23
overall 5:23 17:11 26:9 34:21 35:5 permit 118:5 54:17 69:14 74:5 posted 4:21 47:19
— 34:3 74:16 partners 31:18 35:9 permits 19:16 83:21 91:10 92:4 posting 4:8
overflow 68:23 69:5 partnership 33:17 person 50:20 53:20 95:13 96:3 120:10 potential 60:22 112:7
111:16 parts 121:12 128:10 97:21,23 101:24 121:8 123:18 118:22
overflows 81:13 party 116:13,20 117:2 102:3 113:24 planned 3:24 45:17,18 potentially 21:7 66:15
oversized 85:24 pass 69:20 105:18 personally 94:10 98:15 45:19 70:25 90:11 102:21 128:20
overwhelming 99:16 118:18 119:7 129:24 132:2,9 power 116:19
owned 47:18 51:21,23 passed 133:19 persons 115:15 planning 2:3 4:14,22 powers 116:21 119:22
— 53:3 66:25 70:18 passes 70:18 pertain 22:15 6:1,15 7:15 24:13 practical 116:23,25
82:21 99:5 109:12 pasture 104:22 Perusek 2:11,12 55:8 29:7,13,18 30:25 practicality 131:20
owner 51:1 Pat 2:15 53:3 65:22,22 55:14,14,21,23 57:16 38:7,20,22 39:6,23 practice 27:5,20
owners 5:21 7:21 66:1 71:4,7,14,18 58:9,14,15 40:15 51:11 62:10 practices 54:19 69:12
—
30:19,19,22 51:16 104:14,18,20 111:2 per-year 16:21 68:10 86:19,21 89:6 precedent 97:19
61:22 64:8 87:16 patch 91:13,17 pesticides 28:19 36:18 117:20 131:13 preclude 22:20
115:11 117:4 Patrick 73:7 Peter 2:4 9:5,16 10:2 plans 87:6 128:6 precursor 15:8
— ownership 27:13 65:17 Patrol 56:6 14:7 16:20 114:9,15 plant 27:4 92:9 predominantly 22:15
70:10 72:22 80:3 patterns 128:21 114:19 planted 112:18 preliminary 17:16
105:11,21,23 pave 9:14 10:6 13:6 petition 6:3 37:22 plants 91:21 prepared 73:4 114:15
CATTAIL CREEK PUD HEARING
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prerogative 130:18 133:23 134:6,6 92:17 93:4,8 94:15 45:16 68:16 120:4 quick 34:5
present 3:17 12:4 33:9 process 121:5,7,13,15 95:14,20 100:15,22 132:2 quickly 36:16 87:10
- 39:2 56:6 59:9 67:25 123:10 101:5,6 102:2,4,7 pull 94:18 quite 33:23 58:3 77:6
73:23 processes 24:10 32:7 103:12,20,23 106:18 pulled 78:16,17 127:22
presentation 50:17 produce 32:2 40:9 108:13,18 115:11,16 pull-off 7:3 26:15 quote 45:13
55:18 79:3 93:22 124:22 125:2 115:25,25 116:2,13 pump 61:3 105:4 quoting 74:5
-
97:2 125:17 129:13 produced 40:11 117:21 120:2 125:6 pumped 105:3
presentations 125:23 producing 94:8 125:15,18 126:15,17 pumping 105:5 R
126:9 product 76:14,16 130:11,15 131:12,15 punch 90:24 r 3:1 130:22 134:1
- presented 41:12 70:24 125:2 131:16 purchase 103:3,5 radius 24:3 32:3 38:1,4
71:22 76:25 133:2 production 24:18,24 proportion 67:2 purchased 47:2 96:12 41:14 130:23 131:1
presenters 126:4 39:14 40:9,14 88:13 proportional 9:11 101:17 Rainbolt 76:19
presenting 38:24 39:5 productive 25:22,24 13:22 purpose 70:17 75:14 raise 44:11 97:9,10
- preservation 120:18 59:6 94:13 95:4 proportionate 15:22 82:14 raised 6:15 7:4 43:10
preserve 39:12 108:11 108:12 29:22 84:18 purposes 22:25 128:5 47:24
preserving 108:9 Products 76:14 proportionately 6:24 pursue 100:11 raising 43:23,23
President 67:13,23 Professional 1:16 proposal 32:24 33:2 purview 119:6 ran 103:23
pretty 11:3 54:19 134:22 127:17 128:4 pushes 51:19 range 4:4 19:12 24:3,6
113:5 117:4 122:16 profit 43:15 74:15 proposals 23:6 78:21 put 21:10 41:8 52:13 41:19 44:14 75:4,17
prevalent 122:4 87:12,13 98:10 propose 118:24 131:21 57:11 58:24 62:24,25 76:4,7,14 114:25
- prevent 56:6 profitably 40:17 95:25 proposed 5:9 19:4 69:21 79:7 82:7 91:4 ranged 18:16
preventing 52:19 program 14:3 129:19 27:10 42:7 68:16,20 93:1 97:24 101:6 ranges 27:8
primary 122:15 prohibited 43:3 73:25 75:1 85:25 105:15 112:8,9 rate 19:11 56:5
prime 5:6 39:12,14 project 23:21 32:3 131:10 118:15,17,19 123:18 rates 18:19,22
-
40:23 41:5 46:21 34:3,18 51:16 58:24 proposes 42:1 123:20 127:3 reacts 76:9
62:22 88:13 91:13 71:1 76:23,25 77:3 proposing 94:20 putting 22:19 84:5 read 8:6 10:23 36:5
95:20,23,24 96:3,7 78:2 85:9 121:7,12 protect 41:1 46:6 54:3 118:1 58:13 75:8,15 77:18
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101:10,15 126:18 promised 49:24 64:11 116:10 121:13 reading 10:8
principal 37:4 69:17 89:5 103:9,18 protected 28:18 55:1 Q reads 22:12
principals 37:3 69:17 103:25 104:3,6 protection 29:12 30:15 quality 20:23 21:12 ready 90:24
- 126:6 promises 103:3 108:17 120:18 57:21 121:19 real 34:5 48:16,17,22
printed 94:1 promotes 88:13 132:20 quarter 4:3 73:8,12 74:10 127:10
prior 24:10 29:15 proper 91:21 protects 52:15 121:16 question 11:7,8 15:3 127:18
_ 30:12 32:7 70:20 properly 15:12 17:1 proud 103:14 16:7 20:13 34:8,20 realistic 90:17
privacy 43:24 46:11 65:6 provide 4:7 28:2 44:10 34:22 36:7,22 48:14 realize 44:12 125:13
private 11:4 125:6,18 properties 5:4 45:19 54:18 62:7 78:23 65:12,20,23 66:4,5 really 15:8 20:15 34:8
131:11,15 45:21 61:22 62:18 91:9 97:9 116:16 66:16 67:4 71:24 35:14 54:2 56:11
- privately 12:6 77:5 125:23 117:7 72:16 80:2 92:17 94:17 99:25 106:19
proactive 29:11 property 5:8,21 7:21 provided 27:24 130:20 95:2 103:1,4 112:5 120:3,8,12 121:4
probably 12:17 19:12 17:18 18:25 19:3,5 provides 116:17 114:15,19 119:11 122:24 125:5 126:8
25:8 37:20 38:21 24:3 25:22 27:7 30:2 providing 108:14,16 124:18 125:1,17 128:16 129:7 133:9
-
44:3 75:12 76:5 30:22 32:12 33:21 113:9 questionable 118:4 realm 34:16
99:22 112:23 114:18 38:3 40:13,20,21 provisions 116:24 questioned 62:10 realtor 71:4
115:5 120:24 126:3 42:17 43:2,8 45:4,6,9 proximity 5:5 51:14 68:10 79:4 Realty 73:8
..., 127:18 45:9,22 46:3,5,8,14 public 1:16 2:4,5 6:21 questioning 122:6 reason 10:7 33:23 34:6
problem 20:21,21 47:2,18 48:3,9,10 6:23 7:6,20 9:4,6,24 questions 6:15 8:1 9:2 57:13 60:13 95:3
50:13 56:24 57:2,8 49:2,24 50:2 51:1,2 10:16,18 11:17 13:4 9:24 14:5,25 17:4 109:20 125:8
69:4 84:23 96:5 51:21 52:7,15,17,21 13:14 14:17 17:5 19:19 23:9 31:21 reasonable 21:1 116:7
- 106:25 129:21 131:9 53:4 54:9,12,16,22 19:20 20:20 23:10 33:6,9 35:10,22 116:16
problems 19:6,17 54:23 55:2 59:17,23 24:12 29:13,14,21 37:10 46:24 49:1,20 reasoning 82:13
38:22 52:7 60:22 60:24,25 63:1 64:8 30:3 37:12 87:7 50:7 57:24 60:4 65:9 reasons 68:19 74:18
- 61:15 128:13 129:7 65:1 67:1 68:7,9,14 107:24 114:13 71:3,7,9,21 73:3 78:4 133:13
129:13 70:23 72:8,11 73:10 117:10 134:4,23 79:7,16 83:23 86:15 rebuild 15:19
procedure 12:15 73:12,22 80:8,22 publicly 77:18 86:16 87:13 93:17 recall 13:3 15:7 23:5
proceed 71:11 76:8 81:21,23 82:1,4,19 published 4:6 94:5 98:13 100:7 receive 36:9 69:3
- proceeded 125:21 83:1,4 85:3 87:15,23 PUD 1:6 4:17,23 8:13 102:17 104:13,14 received 37:21 38:9,21
127:5 87:25 88:17,20,25 9:14 13:11 31:4,5 109:8 114:5,6 115:7 recess 71:13 79:18,19
proceedings 1:4 91:15 92:1,5,10,15 32:25 36:23 37:2 123:14 126:13 recessed 79:16
CATTAIL CREEK PUD HEARING
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recite 110:17 removed 68:17 101:1 Resolution 5:25 125:6,19,19 130:16 44:17 73:11 74:12
recognized 73:20 removes 88:12 respect 7:5 44:4 46:10 131:12,15 78:9,12
— recommendation removing 28:22 56:25 57:22 89:21 rising 74:13
13:19 25:5 38:8,20 rendered 30:24 respectfully 33:2 46:17 river 65:15 105:14,16 S
39:7 rendering 27:10 respond 5:15 105:23 106:2 S 3:1
recommended 5:22 rented 86:3 responded 5:12 road 4:24,25 6:22,25 safe 58:21
— 7:16 124:8 repeated 28:24 response 5:20 118:10 6:25 7:1 9:10 11:13 safety 55:3,16,24
reconfirm 50:9 repeating 50:20 133:17 12:21,22,23,24 13:2 60:22 89:24 120:18
reconfirming 29:19 replace 81:5 responsibility 11:9 13:5,6,11,17,25 14:2 sale 70:12 76:3 79:12
— record 3:16,19 23:14 report 55:6 12:10 65:17 130:7 14:8,12,20,20,22,22 82:2
66:6 68:3 77:18 78:1 reported 134:7 responsible 10:4,7,23 15:19 16:1,3,8,11,13 sales 32:23 73:9,10
107:19,25 133:11,19 Reporter 1:16 134:22 11:2 112:20,20 16:14,15,16,17,17,24 74:24 75:2,4
recorded 4:2 24:9 REPORTERS 134:21 113:22,25 117:2,7 23:22,23 25:19 26:4 sat 14:2
— 28:24 32:6,22 74:23 reports 30:4 rest 38:14 72:1 106:14 26:5,6 29:23 31:25 satisfy 77:6,12
75:24 94:20 represent48:16 50:14 121:13 129:17 32:13,14,15 42:14 save 91:25
records 24:12 55:13 112:6,7,11,16 113:3 resting 125:20 44:6,21 46:10 55:5 saw 79:5,6
78:17 104:4 110:10 representation 126:5 restrictions 11:5 70:14 56:1,2,14 57:10 saying 42:17 77:19
—
recover 51:9 126:15,16,22 result 27:17 39:4 58:15 60:9 63:12,13 94:24 96:8 124:25
reduce 14:23 27:1 representations 126:3 resulted 38:23 67:19,21 68:9 71:19 133:16
reduced 28:20 134:8 representative 23:12 retaining 32:18 83:12 85:2 90:21,22 says 10:22,22 11:1
— reference 46:2 118:12 44:12,16 107:22 Reuben 2:14 66:20 91:5 93:12 108:3,8 52:13 58:5 90:5
references 133:13 124:1 125:8 67:12,18 72:3,25 108:24 114:3,10,21 101:4
referral5:11,20,22 representatives 131:8 review 11:17 21:18 115:4,4 125:14 128:3 scanned 94:3
21:25 represented 7:24 29:4,5 32:10,25 89:7 129:19 school 26:7,8,11,13
— referrals 21:10 63:19,24 76:15 113:6 108:18 roads 12:6 29:24 31:25 29:12
referred 105:12 113:9 reviewed 5:11 7:7,18 44:2 55:25 56:12 Scott 73:7
132:22 representing 37:17,20 17:8,15 30:3 57:3,4 58:10,20,23 screen 118:20 132:17
— referring 118:13 50:21,22 reworked 16:22 59:1 121:9 search 47:17
refers 31:4 represents 115:17 Rick 48:18 roadway 9:9,15,19 searched 43:6
reflected 120:3 request 5:16,20 33:2,6 rid 91:15 14:19 46:7 91:8 season 17:24 70:21
refuge 54:16 96:17 46:17 102:18 107:19 ride 44:1 59:1 62:24 roadways 10:12 12:1 105:6,7 106:4,12
— regarding 7:4 9:9 118:10 88:21,25 Rob 3:6 111:4
46:14 71:22,25 73:21 requested 7:17 57:9 rider 44:21 93:1 rocky 96:5 second 11:1 16:9 26:3
83:6 103:1 114:9,16 123:16 riders 44:4,19 58:25 ro113:5 56:20 28:10 75:9,18 108:23
regards 131:16 requesting 33:3 rides 58:22 room 42:19 44:11 45:2 132:12
— registered 1:16 42:23 require 91:8 92:9 riding 58:2,6,10 88:23 rooms 45:12 secretary 63:5,14
87:18 134:22 116:24 right 8:18 15:9,11 roping 97:11 87:17
regression 75:20 76:4 required 5:24 6:23 19:23 25:6 32:20 roughly 66:12 123:2 secretary/treasurer
— regulation 18:20 7:12 8:24 11:13 28:3 34:1 43:7,12 46:7,9 130:21 63:15
regulations 22:4 24:17 29:2 30:25 109:21 48:3 49:4,5 50:25 row 41:24 45:4 46:3 section 4:4 14:21 16:13
Regulatory 73:14 requirement 46:18 52:14 53:4 55:17 55:25 57:6,16 59:7,7 24:5 40:24 45:15
rehearse 122:1 requirements 7:9 60:11,24 61:2,18 59:11,12,12 74:2 46:19,19 132:9
— relate 21:11 95:9,17 20:17,19 21:12,24 65:20 67:20 80:23,25 97:22,25 99:14,17 sector 73:11 74:9,12
related 38:5 120:12 22:15 122:3 81:2,3,4,12,21,25 128:8,8,11 78:10,12
126:1 requires 22:20 46:20 84:20 92:5,15 97:13 rows 25:25 41:25 see 18:1 21:4 22:24
— relates 127:7 133:3,7 115:23 97:15,15 100:16 rubble 51:6 24:25 27:9 35:16
relation 94:8,9 requiring 6:22 13:6,24 101:23,25 102:2,16 ruin 57:21 41:20,24 50:4 51:4
relatively 19:5 125:12 15:14 103:16 105:3 107:3 rule 13:20 22:19,23 52:22 53:5 58:1
relevant 122:25 reservoir 70:8,16,21 107:12 111:8 112:1,9 122:8 123:1 60:25 61:4 75:4,21
— relies 83:4 92:25 105:19 106:22 112:24 113:14 rules 50:19 82:16,17 76:3 80:6 81:2,6,8
rely 84:11 residence 121:19,23 121:21 123:22,25 122:9 83:2 88:8 93:5,9
remain 25:16 42:24 122:16 128:5 130:8 131:23 run 69:24 72:2 85:16 97:19,22 124:22
43:19 48:12 72:12 residences 121:20 rights 41:3,4 46:6 103:8,16,19 105:24 128:9,23 129:1
-
110:1,18 resident 84:20 65:14 69:5 70:7,10 106:2,9 109:13 seeded 26:20
remaining 43:18 72:17 residential 11:24 24:2 72:6,23 73:10,17 113:16 seeing 23:6
72:18 127:25 45:25 122:22 80:11,12,14,16 81:16 runoff 69:3 seen 19:15 53:1 77:21
— remember 27:15 residents 41:13,18 82:21 83:6 84:17,19 runs 67:21 80:5,22,23 87:20 89:3,8 90:1
112:22 44:25 51:19 56:20 86:5 101:11,24 102:3 80:24 81:24 83:3 seep 18:12 64:3,6,19
remind 15:21 57:22 89:23 115:12 105:7,8,11,24 109:25 rural 24:2 43:19 44:16 65:1 66:17,17,22,23
CATTAIL CREEK PUD HEARING
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67:2,7 80:8 41:3 42:22 43:17 113:11 124:11 soon 29:6 16:3,21,25
seepage 18:7 19:4 47:3,18 48:15,21 sirs 46:1 sorry 38:14 72:14 stable 53:8
103:14 105:21 111:9 49:24 81:6,16,20 sit 38:14 76:23 77:4 78:16 staff 4:7,22 33:3 68:10
selecting 28:18 87:18 100:22 103:11 site 5:1,2,4,6 6:17 122:18 114:6 117:11 123:16
selection 26:20 103:17 105:6 23:23 24:18,21 30:20 sort 113:9 124:8
sell 35:14 41:3 43:15 Shepardsons 31:14 32:3 45:21 49:3 source 70:19 72:2 stage 29:3 33:4 124:7
— 85:14 87:24 88:1 33:16 35:6 64:22,24 68:20 74:3 106:10 111:23 stand 52:22 76:14,24
sells 45:6 Shepardson's 48:2 75:5,22 76:12,13 sources 66:20,21 84:6 standard 10:16,18
semi-custom 74:4,12 Sheriff 29:14 sites 28:18 45:25 59:13 south 5:2 31:24 47:22 11:3 12:15 21:9
— sense 74:20 127:21 Sheriffs 5:15,17 74:17 75:6 114:23 56:4,15,17 67:20 26:13 27:5,23 96:20
sent 85:11 Sherri 2:3 4:14 8:3,5 128:11 131:6 68:15 113:23,25 standardized 93:5
sentence 10:24 11:1 9:2,3 117:19 121:22 sitting 90:25 115:5,5 standards 5:13 11:18
separate 39:22 122:1 situation 36:4 53:2 southwest 4:3 23:24 24:17 28:5 30:15
— separating 95:6 shift 116:19 58:25 79:14 space 4:1,19 5:9 6:12 90:20 121:21 123:12
September 4:6,21 shook 48:6 situations 22:22 6:17 10:5 11:4,5 123:24 132:10
24:19 87:19 short 25:25 83:18,19 124:23 18:8,15 26:1,18,18 standing 38:11 52:20
septic 7:5,7,8 17:11 83:20 87:9 six 21:23 22:8 23:2 26:19 27:6,15 36:1 stands 103:13
—
18:20,23 19:1,7,7,18 shorthand 134:12 99:21 36:12,15 39:22,25 start 129:12
20:9 28:5 shortly 80:15 82:10 six-inch 84:17 40:3,8 45:23 51:19 started 110:6 124:17
serious 51:15 87:13 shoulder 61:22 six-month 21:3 51:24 52:1,23 59:20 124:18
— serve 27:22 121:12 shoulders 92:18 93:14 six-tenths 64:7 66:7 62:8,15,17,25 63:4 starting 20:18 124:20
served 39:18 show 3:16 51:3 54:11 size 8:19,22 19:9 24:4 64:15 65:6 88:16 starts 46:9 111:16
serves 39:22 75:14 59:2 82:14 87:20 24:4,7 25:25 32:5 91:11 104:23 108:25 state 1:16 18:19 21:4
service 5:7 6:7 26:6 90:16 107:19 112:13 34:2 40:17,18 89:13 109:2,3,5,7 111:21 21:11,19,24 22:2,12
— services 2:3 4:15 24:13 121:11 133:11 89:14,14 93:7 121:23 112:6,14,16 113:4,10 22:15 23:4 28:15
30:25 76:20 117:20 showed 60:8 121:24 122:6,21 114:2 122:23 126:17 30:20 35:25 36:14
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- 21:16,25 22:4 31:11 126:8 24:11 32:7 126:22,25 16 19:13 27-2-74 133:6
44:15 47:7 50:11 workable 40:7 127:1,1 132:1,19 160 48:12 127:25 28 130:21
52:18 56:21 61:15 worked 25:20 30:5 1600 68:24 28th 87:19
78:18 79:18 84:8 working 29:11 30:14 $ 17 2:5 67:25 86:12,12 29 4:25 14:22 16:15
-
85:3 95:19 110:12 54:15 $1,040,000 34:11 17.9 17:12 23:23 32:1 55:7,9,15
112:13,17 113:2 works 2:4 6:21,23 9:4 $100,000 54:17 170 125:10 56:12,14,15,18 57:18
125:6,16 9:6,24 10:16,18 $110,000 76:3 1700 123:2 58:15,23 60:6 63:12
— we've 9:21 14:2 17:23 11:17 13:4,14 14:18 $12,000 91:17 103:13 173 37:21,24 38:2,5,13 67:21 88:10 94:11
19:15 21:2,3,4,10 29:13,21 48:18 $13,500 16:2 41:12 50:14 89:23 114:12,21
54:2 57:13 60:5 89:9 114:14 117:10 $140,000 6:9 76:12 90:8 97:20
CATTAIL CREEK PIJD HEARING
Page 17
3 6
3.2 18:9 6 4:4 10:2,25 12:9
— 30 36:1 40:22 44:25 6th 4:4
54:13 60:17 64:10 60 58:23 75:5 115:2
85:12 87:3 613 3:23 132:1
30-acre 68:14 75:13 63 2:13
—
111:20 65 76:5,7 91:12 96:12
30.13 4:1,19 132:5 100:22
300 59:14 65,000 87:24
— 304 35:4 66 4:4
31 7:1 13:2 14:22 66-and-a-half 60:8
16:17 32:1 56:1,3,8 67 2:14
56:14 57:11,17 60:6
—
60:7,11 71:19 83:14 7
85:2 88:10,11 90:22 7 5:25
90:22 93:13 114:12 70 4:24 6:25 9:10
114:22 115:4 12:23,25 13:25 14:8
33 16:17 14:12,21 16:10,13,15
34024 55:15 58:15 23:22 25:19 26:5
34251 85:2 29:23 31:25 32:13
— 34499 71:18 42:14 55:5,7,7,10
34743 63:12 56:2,8,12,16,18
35 2:7 57:10 58:23 60:6,6
350 44:14 85:7 88:10,11 90:21
— 35540 83:12 90:22 91:4 93:13
37 2:8 108:9 114:10,21
392 56:17 60:7,8,11 129:19
— 83:14 88:11 70,000 76:5
71 2:15
4 72 67:19 94:11
42:318:4,18 75 27:9
— 4-1 45:16 75,000 76:7
40 37:5,5 39:13 55:6 79 2:19
58:23 60:17 72:10,13
82:23 110:7 122:21 8
122:22 127:3 8 7:11 17:20 18:1,18
40-year 127:3 19:1
4025 23:16 8.7 18:4
— 42 2:9 80 37:25 91:4
42,000 20:2 800 4:24 23:22 107:2
43 20:4 80525 23:17
43,56020:1,3 832:16
—
45 18:17 842:17
4816:15 89114:22
49 2:10
-- 9
5 92:44:4134:19
5 20:18 90 16:16 114:24
5,500 30:7 91 6:2,3
— 50 35:7 44:25 45:8 915 1:15
60:17 95 70:7 100:23
500 30:23
— 52 128:2
54,000 19:24
552:11 56:16
55,000 19:24
— 560 20:4
58 2:12
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