HomeMy WebLinkAbout800437.tiff 1 BEFORE THE WELD COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
2 GREELEY, COLORADO
3 Docket No. 80-66
4
DR. ROBERT HAWKINS,
5
Applicant. )
6 ) REPORTER' S TRANSCRIPT
HEARING TO CONSIDER GRANT OF )
7 A SPECIAL USE PERMIT FOR AN )
EXOTIC ANIMAL FARM.
8
9 County Commission Chambers
Weld County Centennial Center
10 915 Tenth Street
Greeley, Colorado
11
12
These proceedings came on for public hearing
13
in the above-named matter before the Board of County
14
Commissioners , County of Weld, State of Colorado, pursuant
15
to notice, at 2 : 20 p .m. , Wednesday, October 29, 1980 .
16
17 Weld County Commissioners :
18 Bill Kirby, Chairman
Norman Carlson
19 Lydia Dunbar
Leonard Roe
20 June Steinmark
21 Also present: Weld County Assistant Attorney Russ Anson.
22 APPEARANCES :
23 DR. ROBERT HAWKINS , Applicant,
24 appearing pro se .
25
PL1036
d00437
2
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 CHAIRMAN KIRBY : Would the County Attorney
3 please make the record on Docket No. 80-66 .
4 ASSISTANT COUNTY ATTORNEY ANSON: This is Docket
5 No. 80-66 , which is an application from Dr . Robert Hawkins,
6 847 Briarwood, Longmont , Colorado , for a special use permit
7 for an exotic animal farm on a parcel of land located on the
8 West 1/2 of the Northwest 1/4 of Section 12 , Township 3
9 North, Range 67 West of the 6th P.M. , Weld County, Colorado .
10 Notice of this hearing has been published on
11 September 25 and October 16 , 1980, in the Johnstown Breeze .
12 The Board of County Commissioners, in consider-
13 ing as to whether or not to approve or deny these special
14 use permits, shall consider the following : compatibility
15 with the surrounding area; harmony with the character of
16 the neighborhood and existing agricultural uses; need for
17 the proposed use ; its effect upon the immediate area ; its
G
18 effect on future development of the area ; the health, safety
19 and welfare of the inhabitants of the area and the county.
20 CHAIRMAN KIRBY : Okay. Again, anyone in the
21 audience interested in this hearing, please sign the atten-
22 dance record.
23 Tom, you can proceed .
24 MR. TOM BONN : Mr . Chairman, on August 19 ,
25 1980, in reference to case number Special Use Permit
3
1 433 : 80 : 23 , the application of Dr . Robert Hawkins, it was
2 moved by Don Billings the following resolution be intro-
3 duced for passage by the Weld County Planning Commission :
4 BE IT RESOLVED by the Weld County Planning Commis-
5 sion an application for site approval of exotic
6 animal farm covering the following described
7 property in Weld County, Colorado, previously
8 referenced into the record by the Assistant County
9 Attorney, be recommended unfavorably to the
10 Board of County Commissioners for the following
11 reasons : (1 ) Does not comply with the intent of
12 Section 3 . 3 (e) (2) of the Weld County Zoning Reso-
13 lution ; (2) Have concerns with the flood plain
14 and security problems.
15 The motion was seconded by Fred Otis . Vote for
16 passage : Bob Halloran, Fred Otis, Bette Kountz , Don Bill-
17 ings, Bob Ehrlich, Chuck Carlson. Against passage : Irma
0
18 White . Abstaining : Jerry Kiefer, Wilbert Wafel .
t9 CHAIRMAN KIRBY : Okay. Is the applicant or a
20 representative in the audience? Yes, would you please come
21 forward? You can use either mike you would like to use .
22 Would you state your name for the record and give us any
23 information you want to.
24 ROBERT HAWKINS ,
25 the applicant herein , thereupon stated as follows :
4
1 DR. HAWKINS : Robert Hawkins, and address, 477
2 Main, Longmont. This farm was started approximately in
3 1976 , and at that time, I called the Planning Commission and
4 asked if there was any rules or stipulations against any
5 exotic animals and so forth and was told there wasn ' t. To
6 this day, as far as I know, there isn ' t any rules or laws,
7 but the ordinance they ' re using against me is the dog ordin-
8 ance, which states anybody that has more than 3 dogs must
9 have a special use permit. I do not have any dogs .
10 However, in order to try to get along and stuff,
11 I have applied for a special use permit, and I have spent
12 considerable money in getting it in order for this farm,
13 because there is considerable investment in this . I 've pro-
14 bably got somewhere between 200 and 250 thousand invested in
15 this farm already, in animals and fencing and buildings and
16 so forth.
17 The flood plain, of course , I 'm sure it is in a
18 flood plain. However , there ' s a lot of houses in the flood
19 plain, and to bring up a flood plain situation which in pro-
20 bably the last 50 years has not been a problem, I think some-
" 21 body told me 95 years ago there was 3 or 4 foot of water in
22 there , and there ' s a remote possibility something like that
23 could happen again, but still , it would not affect the ani-
24 mals as far as getting out.
25 Even if the flood was 50 foot high and washed
5
1 away all the buildings, the cages would still be there, and
2 the animals would be inside . Unfortunately, the animals
3 would be killed , but they certainly would not be a danger to
4 the community. They are locked inside a building, and inside
5 the building, they are locked inside cages. These cages have
6 been approved by the U. S . D.A. and by the Weld County Humane
7 Society as being satisfactory, no problems, unable for the
8 animals to escape .
9 I know that one of the concerns I 've heard is
10 that somebody could climb the fence with a hacksaw and cut
11 the locks off the doors and let the animals out . Even if
12 that occurred and they left the doors open , there is a
13 9-foot fence surrounding this area that the animal still
14 could not get over . So they would be very safe .
15 And dangerous they are not, anyhow. I go in with
16 my animals and pet them, rub them, and I 'm still here. They
17 are not that dangerous. However, I don ' t know what would
18 happen with a stranger . When I ' ve been there, strangers have
19 come from papers and radio and television people have gone in
20 there and rubbed and petted them and there ' s been no problem.
21 It ' s like a dog will bite a person when the
22 people aren ' t home, and when the people are home , they tell
23 him to be good or something, they don ' t bite you. But these
24 are probably no more dangerous than the dogs that a farmer
25 might have for protection or anything else.
6
1 The construction and most of the buildings, so
2 forth, have been completed, and there is no further plans
3 for expansion, and I have not wanted to make this into a
4 big deal . I have 80 acres, which is more than adequate to
5 raise enough alfalfa and feed for the animals , and as far
6 as I know, only the cats have been a problem, and I 've never
7 heard anybody say anything against the deer and antelope and
8 stuff like that who roam freely out in the pasture .
9 And so as far as I know, only the cats have
10 been involved in this situation with the dog ordinance,
11 being likened of being close to dogs . I don ' t know how
12 you could put four-legged animals that eat grass in the
13 same category as a dog; and so basically, my comments will
14 all be based upon the cats, because that seems to be what ' s
15 being challenged that I 'm wrong . Of course, I 'm willing
16 to know. But it seems like that ' s what seems to be the
17 problem there.
18 These animals are -- the cages are cleaned every
19 single week with a high-pressure water sprayer, with a
20 machine that ' s used for taking off paint or whatever you
21 want, but it cleans the floors , the cement floors to where
V
22 they ' re, as the U .S .D.A. department man says, he wants them
23 clean enough and cleaned every week and clean enough to
24 eat off of, and which is done .
25 I also try to clean them mid-week , too, just
7
1 with a shovel and carry out the manure and stuff like that,
2 get approximately half a load of waste products per week
3 from the animals , which is not an awful lot, but it is
4 hauled off and taken out of the vicinity where the animals
5 are .
6 There ' s virtually very little noise that would
7 come from this . In the wintertime, there is absolutely no
8 noise when the windows are closed, because the lion ' s roar
9 can only be heard approximately 150 foot. We checked it;
10 we 've had the paper out there when he ' s been roaring a little
11 bit. It ' s very, very faint at 100 foot and virtually cannot
12 be heard at 150 feet even with the windows open.
13 So the noise factor -- and there isn ' t anybody
14 close enough to hear the animals unless they were standing
15 up next to my fence, which is approximately 100, 130, 140
16 foot from my line, or fence lines, so you 'd have to be stand-
17 ing up next to that in order to get any noise at all factor
18 on that. I have a house, of course, approximately 200 foot
19 away, and there ' s not any problem at all with this type of
20 thing there .
21 The wind normally blows from the north to the
22 south, and therefore, any type of smell, if there was any,
23 would be blown away from the neighbor across from me , and
24 his complaints there ' s a smell there is non-existent. There
25 is no smell , because I do keep them clean, and even if there
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1 was, he wouldn ' t be able to smell it anyhow unless he went
2 down south off his property and onto the property that was
3 south.
4 The only smell he smells is his feedlot is north
5 of his property, and that does have a tremendous smell .
6 This feedlot hasn ' t been cleaned probably for 15 years and
7 has piled up 6 or 8 foot. Certain times of the year, it ' s
8 unbearable for my tenants and also me. He has failed to
9 clean his pens even once. My complaints have brought abso-
10 lutely nothing from the Weld County Health Department or
11 anybody else to get him to clean it up, and obviously,
12 there isn ' t any laws that govern the people that have cattle.
13 And basically, this is one of the problems here,
14 of course, has been the neighbor to the west of me who has
15 hassled me before I ever had the animals, who hassled the
16 neighbor before . McGrath, that lived there, sold the property
17 for the very reason that he was just hassled to death with
18 this type of complaint and harassment he ' s given me .
19 Is there any questions I can answer?
20 CHAIRMAN KIRBY : Are there any questions from
21 the Board?
3
22 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: Iou say your cats are
23 in some sort of enclosure , and then there is some informa-
24 Lion in our packets which said you 're going to build a new
25 facility.
9
1 DR. HAWKINS : The new facility is completed.
2 It was a barn . Right now, I have cattle in it .
3 COMMISSION DUNBAR: I understand you don ' t live
4 on that place, though, right?
5 DR. HAWKINS: No, I don ' t, but I have tenants
6 that live there, and they do --
7 COMMISSIONER DUNBAR: They are there all the
8 time?
9 DR. HAWKINS : They are there all the time. I
10 do ask them to watch, you know, if somebody should climb
17 over the 9-foot fence. It would be possible, though not
12 for me. I forgot my keys one time and tried to make it
13 over, and after about 10 minutes , I drove back to Longmont,
14 decided I wasn' t young enough to get over it. I 'm sure
15 somebody agile could. I 'd hate to try it again.
16 Also in my plans, though, if you looked at
17 the special use permit, I have -- would like to have had a
18 trailer out there and somebody that ' s retired to kind of
19 look after and stay there all the time , and this is in the
0 20 plans . It ' s down on the special use permit, and I think
21 Tom Honn suggested that would be a good idea, and I think
22 probably, you know, it ' s something that can be worked out.
23 It doesn ' t take much to take care of them. It
24 takes about 15 minutes to feed the cats and about 15 minutes
25 to feed the hoof stock each day, and I am out there every
10
1 single day to feed them, and I 'm out there all day Saturdays
2 and Sundays, and Wednesday afternoons I 'm out there all
3 afternoon .
4 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Any other questions? I guess
5 not for right now. We may think of some.
6 (Witness excused. )
7 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Is there anyone that wishes to
8 speak in favor of this in the audience? In favor first .
9 Okay, is there anyone in the audience that wishes to speak
10 in opposition? Yes ; please come forward, state your name
11 for the record, tell us your concerns .
12 NORMAN SWANK,
13 a witness herein, thereupon stated as follows :
14 MR. SWANK: My name is Norman Swank. I 'm the
15 neighbor he ' s talking about just west of him. My corral has
16 got a pile in there and I keep in there in case of the flood
17 and the rains that that heavy soil , you clean those corrals,
18 and you don ' t have nothing but standing water in there .
19 And the smell , I just kind of keep repeating
PO myself, I 've been through this I don ' t know how many times
21 down here, but I went through all this summer, 100-degree
22 weather, with my windows shut, the stink of those animals .
23 Those animals are in probably 7 by 7 pens . They 've been in
24 there 3 years . Maybe 8 by 8; I don ' t know. They ' ve been in
25 there 3 years . That ' s all the exercise they ever had. All
11
1 the daylight they ever had was a couple windows on the north.
2 That' s not fair to them, it ' s not fair to me.
3 This doctor ' s broke every damn rule and law you
4 can put to him. He says it don ' t smell out there . The Plan-
5 ping Committee went out there; one of them smelled it half a
6 mile before he got to the place and three-quarters of a mile,
7 I think he said, after he left it. Yeah, I put up with the
8 smell . It ' s been 3 years. I want the damn things out of
9 there .
10 Now, this ain ' t enough. He ' s hauling sludge, and
11 if any of you don' t know what sludge is, it ' s human waste,
12 out of Longmont spreading it on there. Maybe it' s legal, I
13 don ' t know, but I 'd like to find out . I 'm dead set against
14 this .
15 I want those cats out of there. I 've been after
16 this a long time . Some of my neighbors are against it . The
17 Planning Committee, the majority of them voted against it,
0
18 and how you can go any other way but that way I don ' t know.
19 But if you do, I want some answers, I want some good ones .
20 If it ' s money talking, I want to know that . But --
21 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Sir, I would remind you that
Y2 this is a quasi-judicial proceeding. We aren' t as formal as
23 a court, but you will keep your comments unslanderous ; you
44 will keep them to the point.
25 MR. SWANK : All right .
12
1 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Thank you.
2 MR. SWANK: Like I said, I been at this 3 years .
3 It takes 5 minutes for him to get it in there, and it takes
4 5 years to move him out . You want to have sympathy because
5 he built a barn, he could raise cattle, just like the rest of
6 us . He could farm, just like the rest of us . It ain ' t zoned
7 for cats . I don ' t think you ' ll get any zoo to tell you a 7
8 by 7 pen for animals like that ' s fair.
9 That ' s all I got to say.
10 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Okay. Thank you.
11 Please stay at the microphone to answer questions.
12 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: Mr. Swank, how long
13 have you lived in the area?
14 MR. SWANK: Since ' 65 . The flood of ' 65 , I
15 moved in there, moved right back out, my furniture. But I
16 been there since ' 65 .
17 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: I guess that ' s my
18 question; I wanted to ask you about --
19 MR. SWANK: I saw three floods there.
e 20 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: -- the flood plain .
21 MR. SWANK: And they do, they get bad. They
22 wash debris down . He thinks that little fence -- it 's a
23 barbed wire fence like around a school . Yes, debris get
24 behind it, we 'd lose bridges out there, that ' s not going
25 to hold nothing back.
13
1 CHAIRMAN KIRBY : Okay. Any other questions?
2 Okay, I guess not for right now.
3 (Witness excused. )
4 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Anyone else in the audience that
5 wishes to talk? Again, please state your name for the record
6 PERCY HIATT,
7 a witness herein, thereupon stated as follows :
8 MR. HIATT: My name is Percy Hiatt, and I 'm from
9 the town of Platteville. On the original application, we
10 were invited by the Planning Commission to give you some in-
11 put on this, and we did ask some questions at that time about
12 the security measures that exist out there or don ' t exist;
13 but I 'm not aware and the Planning Commission of Platteville
14 is not aware of the type of caging that' s inside of the
15 building now that we cannot see .
16 We know that prior to the building being put
17 around the pens, it appeared that the fencing was merely a
2
18 yard fencing that the cages were constructed of. We didn ' t
19 feel this was the adequate type of material to cage exotic
20 animals .
21 The town is not necessarily in favor of the
42 location, because it is very close to the city limits of
23 Platteville . The cleanliness, I have been out there and
24 with one of your staff members several years ago on this ,
25 and at that time , it certainly lacked a lot to be desired
14
on cleanliness of it and odor.
2 The doctor says that the caging is approved.
3 The town of Platteville has not been made aware of that
4 by Weld County, as yet. We are still concerned about it.
5 We are also concerned about the dumping of
6 human feces on the property that close to the town. I
7 was out there last night slightly after dark, and there
8 was pretty heavy air last night, and there was a definite
9 odor on that property .
10 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: I suppose that ' s a different
11 issue; possibly better not clutter up this hearing too much
12 with it .
13 MR. HIATT: Well, we couldn ' t tell -- really,
14 what I was getting at, we couldn ' t tell whether that was
15 the odor from the animals or from what was being spread.
16 Other than -- we would, the town of Platteville
17 would like to be told whether it is adequate fencing and
0
18 security measures .
19 COMMISSIONER DUNBAR: Mr. Hiatt, I ' d like to
20 ask you one question . There ' s a letter in here that the
21 animals were running at large . Do you know anything about
22 that?
23 MR. HIATT : I have no knowledge of that.
24 COMMISSIONER DUNBAR: I just was wondering
25 because of the health and safety of the community .
15
1 MR. HIATT: We have heard that there were
2 tracks, but the town has no evidence.
3 COMMISSIONER DUNBAR: I see.
4 CHAIRMAN -KIRBY: Are there other questions of
5 Mr. Hiatt?
6 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: Yes, I guess I have --
7 CHAIRMAN KIRBY : Don ' t rush off, Percy.
8 COMMISSION STEINMARK: I 'm not sure I understood
9 you, and so I want to ask you, it ' s the town of Platte-
10 vine ' s position that if they can be assured that there is
11 sufficient security that the animals are kept in a compound
12 so that they cannot get free, that ' s the town ' s only objec-
13 tion?
14 MR. HIATT : I think this is basically true.
15 We would still have some reservations on it, but that is
16 our main concern, of being as the crow flies a mile and an
17 eighth, maybe, from the town; certainly whether they get
18 loose or not is going to be the concern.
19 We 're concerned about the odor, because the
20 wind does blow towards us, and we have to spend thousands
21 of dollars maintaining our lagoons to keep them from smell-
' 22 ing, and I have in the past -- his organization smelled
23 worse than the lagoons did, from the farm.
24 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Okay, any other questions?
16
1 Thank you.
2 (Witness excused. )
3 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Anyone else in the audience
4 that wishes to comment, testify? Are there any further
5 questions from the Board for either the applicant or anyone
6 who has commented? Oh, excuse me .
7 CULLEN ODENBAUGH,
8 a witness herein, stated as follows :
9 MR. ODENBAUGH: My name is Cullen Odenbaugh, and
10 I live, my place is north of Dr. Hawkins . I listened to,
11 well, more or less both sides of what the two previous
12 people said, and, well , it doesn' t quite come out. I ' ve
13 lived there for, oh, 30, 32 years; one of my main concerns
14 is the flood problem. Now, I 've seen three or four go in
15 there. There is times when access to the farm is impossible
16 from --
17 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Just a minute ; the tape ran out .
78 MR. ODENBAUGH: When the flood goes through,
19 you can come in from the north or the south, and those roads
20 wash out where at times the County and stuff gets there to
21 fix them, it ' s probably six weeks .
22 And the fences mean literally nothing when they
23 go through there, especially this woven thing, because it
24 takes out barbed wire fence, posts and all, when it goes
25 through there. And where the actual place is, I 've seen
17
1 water over there three or four times already. And it doesn ' t
2 seem quite right to me, I don ' t know how you would move
3 them fast enough, and there ' s no doubt in my mind there ' s
4 going to be another one sometime.
5 As far as smell or anything, now, I live ap
proxi-
6 g, pproxi-
6 mately, oh, I 'd say half a mile, and I do have a dairy herd.
7 I don ' t know that I 'm in the prevailing winds from northwest
8 to southeast, and I can ' t really say that the smell is that
9 bad, but there is times when my cows, I can ' t determine
10 anything, but they will get to all stick their head up and
11 run and get real nervous, and whether that causes it, but
12 it is when the prevailing wind is right.
13 And as far as security, I 'm not totally against
14 him having his place there if it ' s proper -- somebody to
15 look after it, is what I mean, but there' s -- he commented
16 about the people that live there; there has been a proces-
17 sion of in-and-outers there for the last six, eight years,
18 and not very reliable sources, if you know what I mean.
= 19 But I guess that ' s all I got to say.
20 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Okay. Are there any questions?
0
21 Okay, thank you.
22 (Witness excused. )
23 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Anyone else have any comments?
24 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: I guess I had a couple
25 questions of Tom. There seems to be general consensus that
18
1 at least the property lies in the flood plain. What do
2 our regulations require, and if all the improvements are
3 already built, how do we know that they meet the flood
4 plain requirements?
5 MS . VICKIE TRAXLER: Okay, the building is
6 definitely in the flood plain. Floodways have not been
7 defined for that area. There are some maps that the Water
8 Conservation Board has given us to show there are flood
9 paths through that very property .
10 The Weld County flood plain regulations would
11 require that if a new building was built that it would be
12 flood proofed to meet the regulatory flood data for that
13 area. As part of the special use permit, you can require
14 that a new building be constructed which would be flood
15 proofed. That was one of the statements that the staff
16 did recommend to the Planning Commission.
17 Did that answer your question?
0
18 MR. BONN: In terms of existing buildings , we
19 do not necessarily know whether they are or are not either
20 flood proofed or elevated to a level above that flood
21 datum that would be of record for this particular area.
22 Certain buildings if constructed under proper
48 permits prior to I guess spring of this year when the flood
24 plain regs were themselves adopted would not have to comply.
P5 It goes back into the non-conformance condition if they ' re
19
1 constructed prior to the regs . Buildings constructed
2 after the date of the adoption of the flood plain regula-
3 tions would have to comply.
4 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: I realize that, but
5 this particular use, it seems to me it 's very important
6 that the buildings meet that criteria because of the safety
7 of the neighborhood in case a flood would come and they
8 were not, and we 'd have exotic animals in the neighborhood
9 rather than just ordinary chickens and goats .
10 MR. HONN: I think, then, what Vickie was
11 pointing out, it was the opinion of the staff that because
12 there is a flood plain identified which does overlap this
13 property, and because the type of use that we 're talking
14 about, the exotic animals , maintenance on the property, it
15 could very well be a safety hazard if a flood did occur and
16 did damage or destroy the building and allow the animals to
17 escape, that it was then reasonable to require a new struc-
18 ture for housing of those particular animals and that that
19 structure be built either in a position out of the flood
20 plain or such that it was flood proofed or elevated, as our
21 regulations do require .
22 Okay. Any new building he may build now under
23 the regulations would have to comply with that. However,
24 what we were suggesting as a condition that the structures
25 he would have to house the cats would, in fact, be new
20
1 structures so that they could be built to be flood proofed
2 or elevated above so that there would actually not be the
3 flood question for the structures housing those cats .
4 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: That appears to be
5 the only concern of safety that you have. Apparently some-
6 one in the previous process determined that the existing
7 fencing and the existing compounds did protect the safety
8 of the area? Is that true, or do we not have standards to
9 judge that by?
10 MR. BONN: I believe some of the development
71 standards that the staff had proposed to the Planning Commis-
12 sion would have caused some additional construction to be
13 made on the site. We did set out some standards for fencing
14 controls, for security controls , okay, and those were based
15 upon responses we received from various referral agencies
16 or entities , some being from the United States Department of
17 Agriculture , a special part of their area that deals with
18 this .
19 We did discuss , or I should say Vickie did, in
20 her contacts in processing the application with individuals
21 I believe from the Denver Zoo, and she can go into specific
22 responses to questions that you may have on that.
23 COMMISSIONER ROE : I have some questions about
24 that. Our development standards are calling for 9-foot
25 fences , is that correct?
21
1 MS . TRAXLER: Okay.
2 MR. HONN: The development standards that were
3 proposed by the staff . Yes .
4 MS . TRAXLER: Yes . They did recommend 9-foot
5 chain link fencing . They did also recommend a ceiling for
6 the cages, if they were to be out in the open, and a -- I
7 should say that ceiling was recommended for around the
8 building which would house the cages . Also, there was
9 recommended a barbed wire overhang to the outside to prevent
10 people from getting into the enclosure .
11 COMMISSIONER ROE: Okay. The memo in our
12 packet from the telephone conversation with the assistant
13 director of the Denver Zoo says that their fencing is 11
14 feet high, that they have problems with cheetahs escaping
15 over the fence, and that other cats , mountain lions and
16 leopards specifically, could easily escape under those cir-
17 cumstances. And they say in here that large cats can go
18 over fences up to 21 feet high.
19 MS. TRAXLER: Uh-huh. That was the idea of
20 the recommendation of the ceiling. Now, Saturday I was
21 at the zoo. I did check for the cheetah fence and the
22 ceiling there, and there was no ceiling over the cheetah
23 pen. There was , however, a barbed wire overhang into the
24 pen to prevent the cheetahs from getting out. That' s in
25 conflict with that telephone conversation .
22
1 COMMISSIONER ROE : The other thing about the
2 building, as I understand in Dr. Hawkins ' letter, the
3 building is a Celatex building. I 'm not sure, but it seems
4 to me that if a large cat would like to get out, the Cela-
5 tex wouldn ' t hold the cat in.
6 MS . TRAXLER: I think the -- there are cages
7 within that building which the cats are housed in.
8 COMMISSIONER ROE: Yes, I understand that. But,
9 you know, we have talked about the possibility of a cage
10 being left unlocked or somebody getting in, unlocking the
11 cage or sawing the locks off.
12 MS . TRAXLER: If the cats were to get outside
13 of their cages, it would be, in my opinion, the building
14 would not hold them. That ' s only my opinion .
15 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: Are you also saying,
16 then, that the perimeter fence, being only 9 foot tall,
17 would not hold them in the general area?
18 MS . TRAXLER: The perimeter fence that ' s there
19 now is not 9 feet woven or 9 feet chain link fence . There
20 is a, from what I remember, and Mr. Hawkins , or Dr. Hawkins
21 can correct me, there is about 5 or 6 feet of barbed wire
22 fencing with woven wire fencing above that . In some areas ,
23 there -- I believe there are some additional barbed wire
24 strands above that . In other areas , there are not. In
25 other areas , it is also not the full 9 feet high.
23
1 MR. HONN: But the proposal in our -- the way our
2 development standards are drafted, is that compound area , if
3 you use that term, would be outside of this building that
4 houses the cats would have the 9-foot fencing, and then in
5 addition, above the 9-foot fencing, there is actually a roof
6 which is consisting of fencing material; it ' s not just the
7 9-foot fencing but essentially a fenced lid over the top of it.
8 MS . TRAXLER: Wha-t we were attempting to do with
9 that was attempting to put a fence around the building which
10 would enclose the cats, and we were not attempting to fence
11 the entire compound but simply the building which would en-
12 close the cats or carnivorous animals .
13 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Okay, are there other questions?
14 Yes.
15 (Percy Hiatt further stated as follows : )
16 MR. HIATT: Percy Hiatt. I think there ' s one
17 thing that I overlooked, and I think that you people have
18 more responsibility to this than I do as the mayor of
19 Platteville, and that is in the evacuation plan, this area
20 is in the area of evacuation in the case of nuclear error.
21 And this , I told the Planning Commission this
22 before, that if they seal that area off, there ' s no one in
23 that area to take care of these animals . If there is a
24 disaster, which we have plans for one, and you have plans
25 for your involvement, that we certainly don' t want to be
24
1 concerned with wild animals . We ' re going to have enough
2 problems evacuating human people out of that area . So this,
3 I think, is something that the County Commissioners really
4 have more of a responsibility than what the town of Platte-
5 ville has in that . Thank you.
6 (Witness excused. )
7 (Dr . Robert Hawkins further stated as follows : )
8 DR. HAWKINS: I 'd like to answer some of these
9 questions that have arisen.
10 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Yes , Dr . Hawkins .
11 DR. HAWKINS : I notice there ' s some concern about
12 the cats if you don ' t feed them for every day or something.
13 These cats, in the wild, as probably some of you know, they
14 make a kill approximately once every two weeks and eat .
15 Therefore, if something should happen like this and the cats
16 didn ' t get fed for two weeks, there wouldn ' t be that much of
17 a problem.
2
18 They might be a little hungry, and this is what
19 drives them to kill in Africa, where I 've been three times
20 and observed these animals in the wild. But they only make
21 a kill approximately once every two weeks, and only when
22 they get very, very hungry . Therefore, if something happened
23 like that, we didn ' t get out there in two weeks, the cats
24 would be hungry, but there wouldn' t be any cat die , and they
25 wouldn ' t be like they ' re going to starve to death.
25
1 Because these cats are on a different situation
2 and schedule than humans are . Some humans only eat once
3 a day, but cats don ' t have to do that. If we miss a day,
4 we are not going to die, either. Probably a week or two,
5 we wouldn ' t die, but we would be hungry. If something like
6 that happened, it wouldn' t be a problem.
7 The other thing, of course, as I say, I have
8 surrounded the cat house with a 6-foot chain link fence
9 with 39 inches of woven wire, 12-1/2 gauge, which is strong
10 woven wire, and above that barbed wire . Not because the
11 cats would escape , because these are tame cats . They have
12 no place to go.
13 They would be more scared of you, probably,
14 than you would be of them. You 'd probably both bug your
15 eyes out and run getting away; they ' d run just as fast from
16 you if you were a stranger as you would from them.
r 17 I also have a tranquilizer gun I ' ve spent consid-
18 erable money for, probably about five, six hundred dollars .
19 This could be gone through, these animals , if you wanted to
20 move them, they could all be gone through and shot in a
21 matter of -- well, you can load, it' s a single shot, you
22 can load it with . 22 bullet-type things and tranquilize them.
23 I keep tranquilizer Ketaset , which is what the people use
24 to tranquilize at the zoos and whoever tranquilizes these
25 animals; they could be shot and loaded up , I think it takes
26
1 about 7 minutes for it to take effect, and they could all
2 be loaded up and probably be gone in 15 , 20 minutes, if an
3 emergency like that were to arise.
4 The chain link fence is the very, very heavy-
5 duty commercial chain link fence that' s inside, and no
6 other fence would be passed by the U.S .D.A. government.
7 They' re very, very strict upon the fencing, and if the
8 flood washed the building away, as I said before , they
9 would still be inside the chain link fence.
10 The only problem would be if it was 5 or 6
11 foot tall, it would probably drown them. If it was only
12 3 or 4 foot of water, it wouldn ' t be a single animal lost.
13 The retaining -- there is a retaining wall on
14 the south side of the building. It ' s approximately 4 foot
15 tall , and it' s very, very thick and very, very deep in the
16 ground, and it' s protected by another building that ' s got
17 2 foot by 2 foot planks, I guess you'd call them, huge; they
18 are down in the ground approximately 6 feet, and they ' re in
19 cement. I doubt if any moving object could move that. This
° 20 protects the cat house.
21 It' s built on the north side of this house, and
22 it ' s very, very protective , and that retaining wall would
23 detour anything coming down, or it could destroy the
24 building. And this , I put it out to the Planning Commission
25 out there , and there was nobody had any conflict that it was
27
1 adequate to protect from the biggest flood coming down,
2 tree or house would be stopped. Plus there ' s big fences
3 with railroad ties another 50 foot out in front of that
4 that would -- could stop anything that was coming.
5 So I really think that the cats are very, very
6 well protected, and there would be no problem at all up
7 to 4 foot of water. More than 4 foot of water, the cats
8 would probably be killed, if it was a sudden thing and
9 didn ' t have time to get them out or couldn ' t get out there .
10 Really, most of these things is people don ' t
11 understand animals, and it ' s very logical that people don 't
12 know about wild animals. I have been in Africa three times .
13 One time I spent three weeks, another time I spent seven
14 weeks, and another time six or seven weeks and lived out
15 in the wild with the animals and tried to learn something
16 about the animals, and it is something that you can spend a
17 lifetime and still never know everything, but I do under-
°
18 stand them.
19 I know security, and I am concerned about
° 20 security, and this is why I 've gone to a lot of extra money
21 and a lot of effort to put up chain link fence and put it
22 9 foot high, have telephone poles in the ground for it, and
23 I feel very, very secure that the animals will never escape .
24 I do realize that people can cut locks and so forth, and
25 this is a possibility, and so it is impossible for the
28
1 animals there to escape; it is not impossible for somebody
2 to let them out.
3 Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN KIRBY : Okay. Any other questions?
5
(Witness excused. )
6 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: What' s the wish of the Board?
7 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: I guess I had a ques-
8 tion of Tom. There was some comment about the hauling of
9 sludge. Is that any problem before us?
10 MR. HONN: The only area that I believe it would
11 probably be a problem is if that is constituted as final
12 deposition of a domestic sewage waste in which, if that' s
13 the case, I believe the statutes may require that a certifi-
14 cate of designation is approved for a final deposition of
15 waste.
16 I don' t know that the statutes are terribly
17 clear, and I think that ' s a question that perhaps John
18 and/or the attorney ' s staff may have to answer, and as one
19 instance, it actually is part of a domestic sewage plant
2 20 operation, and it may actually be covered there.
21 I 'm not aware that there ' s a specific constric-
22 tion against using it as a fertilizing agent, and if that ' s
23 what is being done, there may not be a requirement .
24 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: John, you want to comment on
25 that?
29
1 MR. JOHN HALL: My only comment is, first of all,
2 I 'm totally unaware of the fact they are disposing sludge
3 there. There are very specific guidelines that deal with
4 the deposition and disposition of municipal sludge. I would
5 have to check, but I 'm almost sure one of the conditions is
6 not to be in a flood plain when disposing of this type of
7 material. Now, whether or not this is pertinent to the
8 situation, maybe it is or not, but I 'm relatively sure of
9 that particular fact.
10 The certificate of designation is another issue
11 that ' s, you know, it is an issue. Most sludges are, for the
12 most part, are disposed of in land fills and are designated
13 areas . Land fills are owned property of the sewage treat-
14 ment plant . So that' s maybe a separate issue, though.
15 ASSISTANT COUNTY ATTORNEY ANSON: Two comments .
16 First of all , on a certificate of designation, I believe
0
17 there ' s an exception of the statute if there is a farm appli-
18 cation. The other point -- unless it is a health problem.
19 The other point is, what I understand, what
20 was given today is that this probably wouldn' t have any
21 relevancy to the request for a special use permit.
22 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: For the animals use?
23 ASSISTANT COUNTY ATTORNEY ANSON: That ' s correct.
24 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: We ' ll cross that bridge later.
25 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: Okay .
30
1 CHAIRMAN KIRBY : Any other comments, questions?
2 DR. HAWKINS : Do you want me to comment on this?
3 This --
4 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: No. It' s not relevant
5 to this .
6 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: It really isn' t relevant to
7 this permit .
8 DR. HAWKINS : I told them to stop it. It' s not
9 doing it anymore , if it ' s a problem.
10 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Any other questions?
11 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: I guess I 'd ask Tom
12 another question. The Planning Commission says that they' re
13 recommending unfavorably because it does not comply with the
14 intent of Section 3 . 3. Did they have specific places that
15 it did not comply with those, that intent, or did it meet
16 some and not others?
17 MR. HONN: I believe that the consensus was that
18 they found general non-compliance with Section 3 . 3 (e) (2) .
19 I do not believe in any comments made during the decision --
20 CHAIRMAN KIRBY : Tom, for the record, would you
21 tell us approximately what 3. 3 says so that it' s in English
22 on the record?
23 MR. HONN: Section 3 . 3 (e) (2) , and I shall quote
24 it from the zoning resolution, states as follows :
25 "The Planning Commission and the Board of
31
1 County Commissioners shall consider the following
2 in making their determination in approving or
3 denying a special use permit : compatibility
4 with the surrounding area; harmony with the
5 character of the neighborhood and existing agri-
6 cultural uses; need for the proposed use; its
7 effect upon the immediate area; its effect on
8 future development of the area; and the health,
9 safety and welfare of the inhabitants of the
10 area and the county. "
11 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Thank you. I was afraid part
12 of the audience might not have the section memorized.
13 ASSISTANT COUNTY ATTORNEY ANSON: I think prob-
14 ably Paragraph 2 of that was the recommendation, may be the
15 reason why. I don' t know. Vickie, you may know.
16 MS . TRAXLER: If I may, I ' d like to add a little
17 bit. They were concerned about the flood plain problem, and
18 during the hearing, Dr. Hawkins stated that he did not agree
19 with the condition of building a new building to house the
20 animals, the cats , and therefore, I think they felt that they
21 could not protect the general health, safety and welfare of
22 the citizens of the county because of the flood plain and
23 also because Dr. Hawkins also objected to the fencing at
24 that time .
25 And there were other minor things that added up
32
1 to their feelings that they could not protect the health,
2 safety and welfare, and also for that reason, they felt it
3 would not be compatible with surrounding land uses .
4 CHAIRMAN KIRBY : Okay. Thank you, Vickie.
5 Does that answer that?
6 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK : Then I guess I need
7 to ask Dr. Hawkins whether or not his position is still
8 the same as that described.
9 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Would you please come forward,
10 Doctor?
11 DR. HAWKINS : What was the question again?
12 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: I 'm asking you if your
13 position on not accepting development standards as were
14 presented at the Planning Commission hearing is the same
15 as Vickie has explained it to us , that you, number one,
16 objected to building the new building and objected to
17 portions of the fencing . I think those are the two things .
18 DR. HAWKINS : Well, the building is only three
19 years old, or four years old. It' s a brand new building,
20 and as I say, the U.S .D.A. has completely exonerated from
21 being against security.
22 If it' s in the flood plain, moving it 50 yards
23 is not going to change the flood plain situation at all.
24 Of course, naturally, you know that as well as I do.
25 Construction would basically have to be the same thing,
33
1 except having a 4-foot retainer wall all the way around it .
2 It' s got a 4-foot retainer wall on the south side, which
3 the water would be hitting that way. That ' s where the force
4 of the water would be hitting. As far as security, the
5 animals would not be any more secure than they are now.
6 The other thing is, when you get out, say I
7 moved it three, four hundred yards , you 've got an electricity
8 problem of getting electricity in . You' ve got to get water
9 out there somehow. In this house , it' s all automatic water-
10 ers . The house is heated with propane heat.
11 Fencing and so forth, as we know it today, in
12 inflation, we 're talking about a minimum of 30, 000, if I
13 did the work myself. And the impossibility thing was they
14 wanted it done in a short time, and then you' re talking
15 hiring a contractor in and doubling the fee, the labor in
16 there will eat you up, whereas mainly what I have in it is
17 mainly material . Very little labor on the thing .
18 And I don ' t see that this is going to remedy
19 any of the complaints or the problems by building another
20 house, because I think most of the property probably would
21 be in the flood plain in that area. I don' t see any evi-
22 dence of it, but I 'm sure , you know, ' 65 I guess was the
23 last flood, and I wasn ' t out there then ; from what I gather
24 from people around, the water would not have bothered my
25 animals at all. The water wasn ' t that deep there. Maybe a
34
1 foot deep or something on my property .
2 Of course, the land does drop sharply as it
3 goes across the road to the neighbor west of me. If I had
4 a foot on my property, he would probably have 3 foot on
5 his at his house , and there would be a problem, more of a
6 problem at his place .
7 But I really feel the security in this thing
8 is really good, and I feel you must really see it to justify
9 it . I ' ve never -- I mean, the U.S .D.A. is very, very tough.
10 The toughest people there is. You know. I really thought
11 they were extra tough. And they did have me spend a couple
12 thousand dollars in order to get U.S .D.A. approval , and part
13 of it was the pressure system and little sheds for the
14 animals.
15 But the cat house wasn ' t that much of a problem.
16 I really didn ' t have any complaints on that.
17 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: Well, when the U.S .D.A.
18 approved your building, did they approve it on the fact of
19 also the consideration of protecting it against any damage
20 in the flood?
e
21 DR. HAWKINS : Yes, this was mentioned to them,
22 because I told them that this had been mentioned at the
23 Planning Commission hearing that it was in the flood plain,
24 and they were not concerned about that at all . You know,
25 you can say the same thing about the Denver Zoo. In the
35
1 big city of Denver, it would be a lot more problem, heavily
2 populated area, if an animal escapes . And I 'm sure occa-
3 sionall they do, because Yyou read about them occasionally.
4 But it does hap
pen, you know.
5 I think there' s much less danger, the chances
6 are much less of my animals ever escaping or having a
7 problem out there than there is with the nuclear plant
8 having a problem. We 've had a problem every year with the
9 nuclear plant having to close down. My animals have been
10 there since three or four years, and there ' s not been one
11 escapee or one problem or any place that even looks like
12 they might have escaped, a bent fence or loose, like.
13 They don ' t want to escape. They would die if
14 you turned these animals loose; they would be dead as soon
15 as they starved to death . They would not know how to catch
16 an animal. I wouldn ' t have any hesitancy at all to turn
17 any of the cats loose in the field with all my animals and
18 expect them to die before they could catch them. They can' t
19 catch them; they ' re not trained.
20 They have to be trained to catchit. If you
21 remember "Born Free" , this is one of the problems they had,
22 to teach her how to catch the game . She would have starved
23 to death if they hadn ' t fed her . So we are talking about
24 wild cats that are domesticated, and I don ' t think you are
25 going to have any problem.
36
1 And I can understand, if you don 't understand
2 the animals , you are concerned about them. Lions , gee, you
3 see them in movies , and they 're ferocious and all this
4 stuff. I can understand my neighbors being concerned, at
5 least most of them, all except maybe one, being concerned
6 of a possibility. But I don ' t think they ' re that concerned
7 they ' re going to escape. They' ve seen the cages and seen
8 them.
9 And there isn ' t a problem of any type of situa-
10 tion you have with a stockyard; there ' s always times you go
11 by and can hardly stand it. That' s part of the farm is the
12 smell. But I don ' t think my farm ever smells that much.
13 At least I don ' t smell it , and I do drive by the 66 stock-
14 yards every day out there, the Curtis and Pleasant Valley,
15 I believe it is, or Valley Feeders, and some days you can
16 hardly stand it, but that,' s part of being on the farm, and
17 I don ' t think the commissioners close any of the stockyards
18 down just because at certain times when it gets wet or
19 something they have a large smell.
20 And mine are inside, so the smell is not going
21 to be exposed to anything like that so there ' s a problem.
22 CHAIRMAN KIRBY : Okay. Any other questions ,
23 comments? Vickie .
24 MS . TRAXLER: If I may further address the issue
25 of the flood plain, I did talk to Mr. Welton of the U.S . D.A.
37
1 about that issue as to whether or not he had reviewed the
2 application with regard to that, and he indicated to me that
3 1 or 2 feet of water would not be a problem, and he did not
4 go beyond that, because he felt the property was only in a
5 flood plain and not in a floodway .
6 So he did consider the fact that there could be
7 water on the property, but he did not have the data that
8 we had from the Water Conservation Board showing the flood
9 flows through the property.
10 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: Then I would ask the
11 attorney if it is possible for us to ask the U.S .D.A. to
12 review those plans and what they know to be built out there,
13 using the data which we now have, and asking if their recom-
14 mendation is still the same?
15 ASSISTANT COUNTY ATTORNEY ANSON: I think you can
16 certainly ask them for a recommendation, and based on what-
17 ever data or the reliability of that data, I guess, is the
18 real question, if you do request them to do that and they do
19 respond, and perhaps they may be able to point out how reli-
20 able that data is and whether or not they could actually make
21 a determination based upon that data. From that you could
22 make a decision from there. Does that answer your question?
23 And if you wish to continue the hearing to receive that data,
24 then that ' s also up to you.
25 CHAIRMAN KIRBY : I guess I have a question on
38
1 this compatibility of the surrounding area question part
2 of the 3 . 3 (e) (2) .
3 ASSISTANT COUNTY ATTORNEY ANSON: Yes .
4 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: By the fact that there are
5 normal, there is such a thing as normal domestic animals,
6 dairy, that sort of thing, and it is shown that they really
7 are disturbed by this different form of animal life, is
8 that sufficient lack of compatibility to consider that?
9 ASSISTANT COUNTY ATTORNEY ANSON: If you feel
10 that the evidence in the record shows that because of these
11 types of animals, that would not be compatible with the
12 surrounding area because of other domestic animals or also
13 if it has an adverse effect on surrounding property, yes,
14 you can make that decision.
15 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Any other questions?
16 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: Well, Mr. Chairman, one
17 of the major concerns, at least, of one governmental agency
18 in the area, the town of Platteville, is the security issue .
19 That issue has not been resolved in my mind well enough to
20 make me secure in including it in my decision, so I guess I
21 would ask -- we do have to have a date, don ' t we?
22 ASSISTANT COUNTY ATTORNEY ANSON: If you don ' t
P3 continue it to a specific date, then you must publish
24 notice.
25 MS . TRAXLER: June, if you' re recommending the
39
1 U.S .D.A. review this, I would suggest you allow them at
2 least 30 days, and then I 'm not sure, the person that does
3 this is not a full-time individual in the Denver office, so
4 it would depend on his schedule and when he would be in the
5 Denver office.
6 COMMISSIONER ROE: Well, isn ' t there the possi-
7 bility of continuing it for 30 days , and if at that time we
8 don' t have the information, then we can have one more con-
9 tinuation?
10 MS . TRAXLER: Yes.
11 COMMISSIONER CARLSON: 26th of November, Wednes-
12 day afternoon, unless you want to have it in the morning
13 meeting.
14 COMMISSIONER ROE : I would rather see us go,
15 allow at least a minimum amount of time to get something
16 from the U.S . D.A. rather than just go three weeks .
17 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: Norman told me --
18 CHAIRMAN KIRBY : 26th would be four weeks.
19 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK : I would move that we
20 continue the decision or continue the hearing on this permit
21 until our regular meeting on November the 26th and request
22 that the U. S . D.A. review the improvements on the property
23 in light of the flood plain information that the planning
24 office has and to return their comments with the recommenda-
25 Lions or comments as to the security issue of the exotic
40
1 animal farm on that property.
2 COMMISSIONER ROE : Second.
3 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Okay, it' s been moved by June
4 Steinmark, seconded by Leonard Roe, that we continue this
5 hearing until our regular meeting, which would be the
6 morning of November 26th, and gather information and
7 comments from the U.S .D.A. as outlined.
8 MR. HONN: One question for clarification.
9 The question of security as it pertains to the flood plain
10 or security in general?
11 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: I am basically con-
12 cerned, the new information that we have is flood plain
13 information, which was not the same used by the U.S .D.A. in
14 the first place, so I 'm, basically am concerned with that .
15 It was myunderstanding you had other security information
16 from the Denver Zoo concerning general security.
17 COMMISSIONER ROE : Okay. But as I understand
18 the security information that you have from the zoo , there
19 seems to be some conflict with what we have in our packet
20 and what Vickie found out at the Denver Zoo, and I would
21 like to reconcile those differences, as far as that security
22 goes, also.
23 MS . TRAXLER: Okay. I did send another referral
24 to the Denver Zoo, I did talk to the Denver Zoo on Monday,
25 and they told me they would send their recommendations to us
41
1 by today
, and we have not received them. But I will pursue
2 that.
3 COMMISSIONER STEINMARK: Okay. Well, I will
4 accept that as an inclusion in my motion, then, to also
5 get that security information from the Denver Zoo.
6 COMMISSIONER CARLSON: Second .
7 CHAIRMAN KIRBY: Are there any other comments
8 or further discussion? Okay. All in favor say aye;
9 opposed, nay. Motion carried unanimously.
10 Is there any other business to come before this
11 hearing? Hearing adjourned.
12 (Proceedings concluded at 3: 25 p.m. , Wednesday,
13 October 29, 1980 . )
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3 REPORTER' S CERTIFICATE
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7 I, ARDETH WINE, Certified Shorthand Reporter,
8 State of Colorado, do hereby certify that the foregoing
9 proceedings were reported in stenotypy by me at the time
10 and place hereinbefore set forth; that the same were there-
11 after reduced to typewritten form by me personally, and
12 that the foregoing is a true and correct transcription of
13 my stenotype notes then and there taken.
14 Dated this 5th day of January 1981 .
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Ardeth Wine, C.S .R.
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